n00bies: Why, and What Happened Next?

[GameLoft]

This is a little of topic, I'll post a more on topic next, but I think another big stumbling point for adults is that they are called games.  In America many adults, especially women with families, believe that they cannot give themselves playtime and this is what a "game" means to them.
I have had many parents say to me:
"Well, I can tell your teaching Bobby something and he really enjoys it but it won't last past high school.  You don't play games when your older."
Why do we have this crazy notion that you can't play when your older?  I don't know.

Ian

[GameLoft]

I have brought both youth and adults to gaming, still working on my wife of ten years but she's getting closer, and I must say that the rule book read factor is the biggest of all.

I never expect a new player to read the book.   Usually, I invite them to sit in for a session and maybe play a NPC or PC who isn't there.  Let them experience the IC and OOC socialization that goes on.  And I tell them that they need to use this time to not understand the "game"  becasue they won't.  They need to understand the zeitgeist, the energy and unity of the gaming experience. After the first session I ask them what they want to be.  Fighter, mage, thief?  Whatever the choices are.  Then I get a little more detail depending on the game.  I make the character for them and then when they sitdown to play next week they have a character that they are invested in because its their vision but they didn't need to be inundated with to much info.  They will learn it if they want to.

I have run a 7th Sea game for the last year and I have really no idea about many aspects of the rules.  I have a player who loves to read the rules.  Thats all we need.  Rules question we ask him.  He also knows our house rules.  It all works.

Those gamers who want to learn the rules will.  Those who don't shouldn't be forced too.

Ian

[Mike Holmes]

Why do we have this crazy notion that you can't play when your older?  I don't know.

Especially when everyone does play games when they get older. I mean, do you know somebody who doesn't play at least a card game of some sort? Not even solitaire? Bridge and Poker are really popular amongst older folks. For a while there, everyone played Trivial Pursuit.

There seems to be some cognative disjunct that puts these in the category of "entertainment" or "sports." Also, how are sports not games?

What people are saying is that when you get older you stop playing childhood games. Which is true - any of you (without kids) play Candyland anymore? Duck, duck, goose?

People see the kids playing these games, and assume that they're kids games. And, then if adults are playing them, that's adults playing a kids game. What's not easy to discern about RPGs is that they "scale" with the people who play them. They are as advanced or adult as the people who play them. Few other sorts of games (I can't think of any) are like this.

Yeah, my father told me that it was a phase that I'd grow out of, too. I told him that I didn't think so, and I was right, becase from the inside it's easy to see why. From the outside, not so easy.

Mike

[GameLoft]

There seems to be some cognative disjunct that puts these in the category of "entertainment" or "sports." Also, how are sports not games?

I have always wonder this one as well.  Sports are most deffinetly games.  They maybe physical but they are games.  I am not a sports person.  I don't follow it and I don't enjoy watching it.  But I must say that when I finally watched, I mean really paid attention, to football I was amazed at how much of a game it was.  It is just like any table top wargame.  It is really fascinating what becomes acceptable and what doesn't.  Although on the flipside ESPN2 shows the M:tG tournaments and I used to laugh at that thinking thats not a sport why are they showing it?

What's not easy to discern about RPGs is that they "scale" with the people who play them. They are as advanced or adult as the people who play them. Few other sorts of games (I can't think of any) are like this.

This is a really important point Mike and I think what most confuses people.  And this ties into the whole thread.  Adults percieve them as childrens games.  High school teenagers play those games.  The real beauty of them is that they are driven by the indivduals involved so they transform to meet the needs of those players.  This is how I most often protray games to people who are wondering.  WE build this experience together.  We shape and explore the stories we are interested in.

Yeah, my father told me that it was a phase that I'd grow out of, too. I told him that I didn't think so, and I was right, becase from the inside it's easy to see why. From the outside, not so easy.
Mike

Roleplaying is what is called an Intrinsic Motivator (IM).  People come back and do it every week because it makes them feel good inside.  It gives them an internal drive to continue.  As oppossed to Extrinisic Motivators (EM) which are drives from outside you to continue with something.  I use RPGs in my program for this very reason.  Teens are surrounded by EMs all the time.  School grades, chores, peer pressure, media, all kinds of things.  I don't pressure anyone to play the games.  They come back because they want to.  It gives a little relief and teaches them that IM are ok.  Something we don't learn much in our culture.

Now that I think about it maybe thats why adults have trouble with playign and gaming.  It has no EM driving it.  Adults are so used to doing things that are Externally Motivated that they ignore those that are not.  In a simple way.  Few people can get complimented on their gamign skills in general public.  I don't know just came to me.

Ian

[Mike Holmes]

Well, see, that's what I was talking about when I talked about the wrong sorts of social context for RPGs. Rather, RPGs should have Extrinsic Motivators. Players should be smiling at each other and saying, "Way to go, I loved what you did with that scene." In acting, it's always pointed out that there's the EMs that come from the audience being present. Somehow in RPGs sometimes the social situation is that you have five people playing the same game, but not playing together socially. This is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Ian, if you find that there are games going on at the Game Loft that are like this, you have to alter the context. Order them to get out to some movies together. Hold socials. Do something to get the players to know each other on the social level and be friends.

Because, yeah, again, if they're treating RPGs like coming to a chess match where your opponent might as well be a computer, RPGs are going to seem all weird to not only adults, but to some of the more social kids as well. As soon as they're friends engaging in a group endeavor that's has socially derived Extrinsic Motivators, then you'll see the adults "get it."

Mike

[GameLoft]

As soon as they're friends engaging in a group endeavor that's has socially derived Extrinsic Motivators, then you'll see the adults "get it."

Mike

This is totally what happens at The Game Loft.  We encourage and in our own program way direct social interaction outside the game.  I totally agree with you.  Its one of  our driving goals.  In fact, I have trouble wrapping my mind around hoe a RPGing group who, as you said, are sharing very personal time could not become socially connected.  Actually, as I say that I was in a group like that and I hated it.  It was the worst group I was ever in.

My point was intended abou society as a whole.  As you say actors have the audience and then the compliments others hear about them.  People on a local team have the other players, the fans who saw his great move, and the fans who hear about it.  Gamers have the other gamers in their group to compliment their skills.  A much smaller pool of EMs.