Fixing UnderWorld's Problems

[GMSkarka]

Tim Gray has posted a new review of UnderWorld up at RPGnet.

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5923.html

His criticism is pretty fair, in my opinion.  I disagree with some of it, but I think he stated his opinions clearly and non-flamingly.

So, with that in mind, here's your chance:  Given the fact that we're currently working on UW2, what would you like to see "fixed"?  Be as specific as you can...because if you're not clear, and we don't address your concern, you don't have room to bitch.  :)

GMS

[TheMouse]

One of the prime things that really needs to be fixed is the editing. There are just alot of points where the grammer or spelling is a bit off.

I felt that the text to illustration ratio was a bit off as well; it just doesn't seem necessary to have a full page spread every three or four pages. It just seems that you didn't have enough text in the book to justify that many illustrations.

I would also like to see a little more clearity on the Charms section. Using Glowsticks for an example, How long does it last? How many can one character create at once? What happens if she creates more than this limit?

I'd like to see seom examples of other UnderWorlds. Is there any way from one to another without crossing into the world above? Is there trade between the UnderWorlds of differrent cities?



TheMouse

[CCamfield]

Well, I don't know that I can give too much feedback, since although I bought a copy of Underworld, I played a grand total of 1 session of it, and had a bad experience with it which isn't necessarily the game's fault.

I think I would appreciate some more advice on how flexible the descriptor system is supposed to be.  For instance, in that one session, I believe a Navigator who was Fast was getting a coin in combat from it.  Was this appropriate, or was the player being a twink?  It jarred my suspension of disbelief that this Navigator was better than my Bravo at fighting.

Also, on a tangible kind of note... I imagine 2nd ed will use coins.  I personally would not, if I ran the game.  Since I'd be playing it at the table-top, I'd probably use d6s and rule 4-6 as a success.  I simply found handling the coins to be a pain.  They're hard to pick up, they don't roll... I simply didn't enjoy using them as much as dice.  Maybe if we'd used BIG coins like (Canadian) loonies this would have helped.

Other than that, I think I'd be echoing The Mouse's comments.  Things like the text/box problem on page 37 shouldn't happen, as I'm sure you know.  Some of the art was pretty bad, in my opinion.  A bit less art is better if the average quality goes up as a result.

More cool content!!! :)

[Jürgen Mayer]

I think I would appreciate some more advice on how flexible the descriptor system is supposed to be.  For instance, in that one session, I believe a Navigator who was Fast was getting a coin in combat from it.  Was this appropriate, or was the player being a twink?  It jarred my suspension of disbelief that this Navigator was better than my Bravo at fighting.

Hm, a possible solution would be that the "Fast" trait gives you an extra coin for initiative, but not for the actual fighting?

Also, on a tangible kind of note... I imagine 2nd ed will use coins.  I personally would not, if I ran the game.  Since I'd be playing it at the table-top, I'd probably use d6s and rule 4-6 as a success.  I simply found handling the coins to be a pain.  They're hard to pick up, they don't roll... I simply didn't enjoy using them as much as dice.

This is only a matter of taste. Some people like the coins, some people just prefer their dice. Most of my players seemed to prefer dice (for table-top play), I let them use any kind of dice they wanted: even counts as success, odd not.
But I would guess that Gareth maybe has other optional dice/coin systems up his sleeve for 2nd Ed. But that's just a wild guess.

Jürgen Mayer

[CCamfield]

I think I would appreciate some more advice on how flexible the descriptor system is supposed to be.  For instance, in that one session, I believe a Navigator who was Fast was getting a coin in combat from it.  Was this appropriate, or was the player being a twink?  It jarred my suspension of disbelief that this Navigator was better than my Bravo at fighting.

Hm, a possible solution would be that the "Fast" trait gives you an extra coin for initiative, but not for the actual fighting?

Well, it's a question of how far do you take the flexibility of the system.  I mean, Fast is described in the book as giving a bonus to initiative.  And obviously it would play into a chase situation...

[CCamfield]

I think I would appreciate some more advice on how flexible the descriptor system is supposed to be.  For instance, in that one session, I believe a Navigator who was Fast was getting a coin in combat from it.  Was this appropriate, or was the player being a twink?  It jarred my suspension of disbelief that this Navigator was better than my Bravo at fighting.

Hm, a possible solution would be that the "Fast" trait gives you an extra coin for initiative, but not for the actual fighting?

Well, it's a question of how far do you take the flexibility of the system.  I mean, Fast is described in the book as giving a bonus to initiative.  And obviously it would play into a chase situation.  But you have to draw the line somewhere.

"Well, my character is Experienced, and he's a Bravo, so shouldn't he get a bonus coin for any sort of fighting?"

[Valamir]

What I generally do as a rule with any "descriptor" based game (and I can't recall if this was a part of UW or not) is attach a short sentence to them to differentiate further.

For example
Fast:  Olympic quality sprinter
Fast:  Lightning reflexes
Fast:  Gets work done quickly


On the Coins note.  It absolutely is a matter of personal preference.  I also REALLY dislike Coins as a resolution tool, I always default to even/odd dice rolls for any game that uses them.  But I do think that the way the mechanic is described in the text "Head Counts" etc is part of the unique charm of UW, so I wouldn't change the rules at all, except maybe to include a sidebar (if there isn't one already) about rolling dice as an alternative.

[Jürgen Mayer]

"Well, my character is Experienced, and he's a Bravo, so shouldn't he get a bonus coin for any sort of fighting?"

IIRC Bravos get some kind of special ability (is it called Battlecraft or something similar?), which gives them a bonus coin for any sort of fighting.

Jürgen Mayer

[Jürgen Mayer]

On the Coins note.  It absolutely is a matter of personal preference.  I also REALLY dislike Coins as a resolution tool, I always default to even/odd dice rolls for any game that uses them.  But I do think that the way the mechanic is described in the text "Head Counts" etc is part of the unique charm of UW, so I wouldn't change the rules at all, except maybe to include a sidebar (if there isn't one already) about rolling dice as an alternative.

I second that. Seems that many people already go for even/odd dice (e.g. 'cause rolling four dice is faster than throwing four coins), so why don't you just make it an official optional alternative.

*nitpick, nitpick*
Jürgen Mayer

[Daymon]

I guess my two complaints are a little more clarification of the rules and get rid of the bug
race. If you want bugs make them different, maybe more like Mimic, but with more intelligence.

Daymon

ps: rules on undead

[GMSkarka]

I guess my two complaints are a little more clarification of the rules and get rid of the bug race.

Bug race?   What bug race?

GMS

[Daymon]

the ones that feed of fear, don't have my book borrowed it to a friend,
if I remember right, they were thinking of posing as cops. i just wish I could think of the name. You can't play them as a breed but they were in
the moster section of the book. I really need to read it again to refresh my memory.

[GMSkarka]

Ah.  Schreckenskäfer.

Since they're not actually a Breed, your "race" comment threw me.

GMS

[Thalaxis]

Now that I've read the sections about the system and combat (haven't
gotten to magic yet, I'll probably get there tonight), I can see a few
issues that are bound to frustrate some of the people in my group.

Basically, it doesn't seem as if there's any way for a character to improve
their skills. They either have them or they don't.

While I was reading last night, I was thinking that this would make for a
great Risus conversion, though. I love the setting, and Risus seems like a
cool system, and converting the UnderWorld head-count system to Risus
looks like it would be a fairly trivial task.

Still, for a single-session game, the head-count system would be great,
since it's so simple and would require very little time to create characters
with.

[joshua neff]

Regarding the head count:

In general, I'm not big on using coins as randomizers, pretty much only because then my hands smell funny & metallic after playing.

But the thing about using them in UnderWorld...it makes sense. For one thing, the original design idea was to make it easy to switch from tabletop to LARP, & coins are good for that. It makes sense for the subway setting, too. But they way they work in the first edition is pretty much the same way dice work in Story Engine--you could easily convert UnderWorld to using dice & just counting the odds (or evens). I like Jared's ideas of using the coins not just to generate a head count but as tokens to spend for game effects. Makes it more "subway-esque" & takes advantage of using coins rather than dice.

Just my two cents. (Ha! Get it? I kill me!)