Perceived value of PDF vs. print

[Asrogoth]

Andrew,

I too prefer hard copies to pdf files.

I have not paid for and pdfs, nor do I have plans to; however, I don't plan to own any pdfs that I should have to purchase -- i.e. copyrighted material that should be purchased in pdf.

But, I do plan to actually publish my own games via pdf first which kind of makes me scratch my head.

I have the same aversion to pdfs that you do, but I think mine might be even greater.  I would prefer not to have pdfs.  I like the smell and feel of books.  I prefer to hold it in my hands and staring at an unlit page that I have to look at under a warm lamp.

Call me a curmudgeon or an ancient freak of by-gone days, but I would much rather use the "real thing" as opposed to electronic bits.

I don't want to be tied to my computer (even though it's a laptop) any more than necessary.

So, with that, know that I fully appreciate your position.  I too would like to know a way to make pdfs more "palatable" or appealing to a wider audience (including myself).

I don't have any salient comments or wisdom to post right now, just some support.

Always,
Kenny+

[Mike Holmes]

As to your point about PDA-formatted electronic game texts being a minority, I'd agree. But in previous threads, publishers have noted that PDF and print sales combined create higher sales than either one by itself. Wouldn't it be likely, or at least worth discussing, that offering an even wider range of options or formats would also increase sales?

Absolutely. But this should be a no-brainer. That is, the more formats you include the game in, the more it will sell. Period. Again, if you want me to be a customer, then an HTML version is what I'd like to see from you. I'll bet that there are people who for some odd reason prefer .doc formats or something. Ron used to provide the Sorcerer as a TXT.

Now, the thing about such formats is that PDF does have the "advantage" to the publisher that you can make it hard for people to get at the text directly. For some reason some publishers like this idea. Nevermind that he entire file can be copied and distributed if somebody wants to pirate the game. Somehow the idea that the file is not able to be meddled with in terms of it's text is valuable to some publishers.

Can anyone explain why that is? In any case, it's a hassle for somebody like myself who likes manipulating the text to suit.

Somehow PDF has become the "product" file format, and others are seen as less legitimate somehow. Again, a really good HTML version would be, to me, a much better way to go. People have talked about this for a while, but wouldn't a game "text" with flash animation and all of the other browser-based stuff you could find to multi-media the presentation be the coolest of game "books"?

But we still haven't seen much, if any of this.

People even talk about different print formats. Comic-book presentations, for instance. How about a game presented on notecards or something? Or on DVD, with players playing as the "instructions."

I mean, there are a lot of different media out there, and formats within those media. Adding any of them to your offering makes it more attractive, I think. That shouldn't be surprising.

Mike

[Keith Senkowski]

Mike,

One of the reasons I would say that PDF is the more popular electronic distribution format is due to the fact that most of the material has its origins in printed media.  I, as a designer can do a lot more cool stuff with a layout app than I can in straight html.

Another likely reason is it is cheaper and easier for me as a publisher to export a PDF from my source material than it is for me to take the time and reformat an html version.

Multimedia shit is cool.  I should know, it is what I do for a living.  But it is all about diminishing returns.  It would take me twice as long to take a print piece (even if it is just word text) and create a dynamite multimedia presentation, be it a DVD, a Flash/Director piece or some other poison that tickles your fancy.

Keith

[Matt Gwinn]

I find that my choosing between PDF and print often has to do with how much I know about the game and whether or not I think it's worth the cover price.

If I want to try out a game that I'm unfamiliar with I'm much more likely to buy the PDF which is almost always cheeper for the same content.  If the print version is particularly nice, or if there are a lot of pages to print I might eventually buy the print version despite having to pay twice.

If you really want to encourage people to buy the PDF you can include additional material that isn't available in the print version.

I like the idea of using Flash and stuff like that in a game, but i don't think html is the way to go about it.  I bought the html version of EPICS a few years back and I found it quite annoying to deal with.  HTML has lots of advantages as far as navigating and using Flash, but layout wise it's just aweful unless you really know what you're doing.

Now if you could incorporate Flash into a PDF, that would be awesome.

On a related note, WOTC is now offering their core books in PDF format.  However, they are charging the exact same price as the print version which I just don't get.

,Matt

[Keith Senkowski]

Now if you could incorporate Flash into a PDF, that would be awesome.

On a related note, WOTC is now offering their core books in PDF format.  However, they are charging the exact same price as the print version which I just don't get.

Flash can be embeded in Acrobat as of 6.0.  I did some interesting things with it for a project at work (nifty animation showing what is involved in a trache).  It is just time consuming, and it would take a hell of a lot of books for me to sell to justify the time it took to do something like that...

I get WotC's logic.  I don't agree with it, but I get it.

Keith

[Mike Holmes]

One of the reasons I would say that PDF is the more popular electronic distribution format is due to the fact that most of the material has its origins in printed media.  I, as a designer can do a lot more cool stuff with a layout app than I can in straight html.

Another likely reason is it is cheaper and easier for me as a publisher to export a PDF from my source material than it is for me to take the time and reformat an html version.

Well, sure. But that assumes that you're starting with a non HTML version, and that you're designing for a book. I mean there's nothing more irritating than a PDF with a print layout that makes it harder to read on screen. Clinton overcame this somewhat with having a PDF screen version. I just wish that the screen version had been HTML.

Multimedia shit is cool.  I should know, it is what I do for a living.  But it is all about diminishing returns.  It would take me twice as long to take a print piece (even if it is just word text) and create a dynamite multimedia presentation, be it a DVD, a Flash/Director piece or some other poison that tickles your fancy.

Well, sure. But this is about adding formats to increase the percieved value. Would it be worth your time to have the additional format? Who knows?

Do I suggest that people create HTML games? Well, I think the time has come for it. But I'd be satisfied if it was just an option. I don't mind printed versions being available, you know. I just don't want them myself, if an electronic version is available. :-)

In any case, I know that some people like PDF for the "lockability" they have, because some of the PDFs I buy are annoyingly locked.

Mike

[MatrixGamer]

[I don't mind printed versions being available, you know. I just don't want them myself, if an electronic version is available. :-)

This quote just blows me away. You know your on the other side of a generational shift when that happens. It isn't computer literacy versus illiteracy, I've used computers since the 70's. This has to do with how I want my game experiences to be.

When I'm playing a game by email/live journal/etc. I want the rules right there, which web pages do. But what I gather is that PDFs are selling face to face RPG rules, so the electronic media needs to intersect with the face to face world. This is where it disconnects.

Really good role playing is all about "being" in the room with the other players. Add in a TV or computer monitor and people stop looking at one another and become zombies. This is very disruptive, books are less so. This isn't mindless machine hating - it is a testable premise (note I don't say fact - I haven't researched it).

A PDF purchaser can print out what they want from the book (the game maker transferring the printing costs to the consumer) so they are not incompatible but then you have a stack of loose pages. A mess.

When I'm playing a game I like the feel of the playing pieces. If it is a boardgame I like the board. If it is a miniatures game - little men and terrain. If it is an RPG, dice and possibly little men. I like being able to stop and talk to my fellow gamers, eat chips, drink soft drinks. Turn on a TV/Computer monitor and the mood is killed. It's just like what happens when someone brings alcohol to a party. The room immediately divides in two. The drinkers and the non-drinkers don't interact.

So I'm wondering, how do you use game rules during play? (A topic that should split off this topic - if you chose to answer) Because it seems it may be very different from how I use them.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Chris,

I think you're missing an element which, culturally, appears to have occurred without much pain: customers of PDFs routinely print and bind them. Again, apparently this has not been as much of an obstruction as initial foes of PDF publishing anticipated.

Therefore now it's very common for a person to buy a PDF product, print it, and then play the game with the "book" in front of the group as usual.

Don't confound electronic commerce with (a) electronic usage of the product or (b) computer-mediated play.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

But, as the guy who doesn't print them out entirely - and I'm probably rare in this, again - I've already said what I do in these cases where I'm playing FTF. I print out only the parts of the game text that I need to play. Which is often about three pages. Or less. Yes, three unbound pages, but...

When I have game books and they are there, they don't come out of the bag often. When they do, yeah, it's an insufferable delay. Basically with the games I play, I don't need books to play them. They are well enough designed, and short enough, generally, that I can memorize the entire text on how to play. If not in the first session, by the third at most.

Everything you need to play Hero Quest, for instance is just a fraction of this handout: http://www.glorantha.com/support/GameAids.pdf  I managed to get it down to only one or two pages, and didn't need that after only a couple of sessions. If I am uncertain of the rules, I just make something up, and then check between sessions in most cases. I don't stop to check what's in the book during play if I can help it.

So a book is waaaay more than I need to have on hand to run the game. In fact, I often intentionally "forget" to bring it along just to avoid the temptation to get it out. Much easier if I only have a PDF version. :-)

Anyhow, like I said, when I do this, I often email the PDF there to be sure it's available in case of emergencies, but, to date, I haven't needed to resort to this.

Oh, BTW, one more thing I hate about books. You have to handle them carefully. My books all look like trash, because, as objects, I really don't care about them so much as what's in them. So they tend to fall apart over time. The lamination on my Hero Quest is coming off in the most annoying fashion (makes me want to rip off the cover entirely). I can't mishandle an electronic version. And, yes, I make backups of everything so that I don't ever lose games due to computer frying - that's basic to using an electronic format (or should be).

All that said, I think that having a game on a laptop is no more distracting than having a book handy. Why would it be so? A tendency to use the laptop for something else? That's an uninterested player, not the fault of the computer. Same player watches TV while the game is going on if allowed to do so.

So until you at least come up with a hypothesis as to why a computer is more distracting, its at least going to sound to me like computer hating. I'll admit that I'm a computer lover, and don't actually expect people to have my preference on this.

You like minis? What do you think of this? http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=122099&page=1&pp=40

Mike

[Ria]

Okay, so if you break down (as the case may be) and buy the PDF vs. print version, what makes it so valuable compared to print (obviously the price and accessibility, but what else)? How can you make it more valuable than a printed version?

Won't people mis-handle an 'unlocked' PDF or will they respect the copyrights? What if you could email the authors and ask for an unlocked version even if the main PDF was locked? Or does it have to be unlocked when you buy it? Is an unlocked PDF more valuable than the printed word? Would that entice buyers, even if they avoid buying PDF games?

If some buyers don't want to buy PDF, shouldn't you make a printed version available? Let the buyer choose? I mean if you're going to boil something down to the size of a hand-held, wouldn't it be worth-while to make a print copy available? Even if it's not fancy? Would a non-fancy paper version be better than a PDF to some people?

[Mike Holmes]

Won't people mis-handle an 'unlocked' PDF or will they respect the copyrights?

To be clear, when I was talking about "locked" PDFs, I meant merely ones that couldn't be modified. They can still be copied whole, however, meaning that copyrights can potentially be abused. Given that this is the case, I'm really not sure why anyone locks them.

In any case, only some people lock them. Many others don't.

Is an unlocked PDF more valuable than the printed word? Would that entice buyers, even if they avoid buying PDF games?

An unlocked PDF is more valuable than the locked PDF, because you can modify or extract from it to suit your purposes. But it's not a huge deal, and will not make a difference in the Print vs PDF comparison.

If some buyers don't want to buy PDF, shouldn't you make a printed version available? Let the buyer choose? I mean if you're going to boil something down to the size of a hand-held, wouldn't it be worth-while to make a print copy available? Even if it's not fancy? Would a non-fancy paper version be better than a PDF to some people?

Well, the argument goes, if you're going to provide a print version, then you may not want to provide a PDF version. Because you can then, theoretically, avoid the problem of piracy.

Actually with the common availability of scanners, what this really means is that you've only made it so that casual pirates are deterred. If somebody really wants to disseminate your materials, they can do so, and you can't do almost anything to stop them. Nothing reasonable. So the question is how many sales does a person miss by allowing their material to be pirated.

I won't go into details, except to say that it's probably not many sales (people who pirate wouldn't have bought the game otherwise). This is a topic that's had a ton of discussion on this site - if you're interested do a search for "PDF AND Piracy."

So I would agree, personally that it's best to have, again, more formats available than less to please a larger audience. But there's another consideration, which is publishing costs. For an indie publisher, PDF distribution is a very no-risk proposition. There is little to literally zero costs involved to the producer (hence, again, the lower pricetag). So for someone getting going with zero capital to risk, it's an attractive way to go. Yes, you'll lose sales to those who would buy the book. But your profits on the copies sold will be approximately equal, and you can't come out behind in terms of production costs for unsold materials (since there are none).

So, I believe that the assumption here is that we're looking at the person intent on selling PDF, and how to get buyers past the PDF buying hurdle. So including a print version is kinda outta scope for the thread.

Mike

[gatekeeper]

Your question is valid. And though a few of these designers wear chips on their shoulders, I will answer your question from a gaming company that has done it's share in research on this matter, and even purchased studies from other gaming companies, as it has been a major concern of ours.

PDF files, while convenient for some, and certainly enable the low budget designer to release their game to the public, are not accepted as reputable, products. What does that mean? It means that (and we actually did this study ourselves) if you hand someone a CD (in a full color, professionally printed CD plastic casing) at a gaming convention with a PDF file on it, it is likely to end up in the trash. If I handed someone a physical print out (well produced full color stack of paper, but not bound) they seemed to respect it. How do I know? Because we imprinted on the back of the CD and printed material a registration codes to get the full version, and while only a handful of CD takers registered, nearly all the paper or hardcopy handouts did register. And while they registered, we offered them some choices - Would you like the full version in hardcopy printed form, non-bound, stack of paper or a CD with the PDF file? Again, most people chose the non-bound stack of paper...Why? Its perceived value, that is why.

There is many studies done that reflect this simple fact. That was only one. Our company will offer both choices to the consumers, as the PDF file is accepted as a more economical solution for people already interested in your game. While the book offers people a feeling of legitimacy. If you don't have a large budget, then look towards a grass roots approach. Sell your product to friends, and market the game at local gaming conventions. Then take your PDF sales and save the money to afford your first P.O.D job.

OR

If you have some business sense, and I mean more then a college degree. And you believe in your product, develop a business plan and setup meetings with large distributors and gaming companies. If you are excited about your product, they will be excited too.

In regards to PDA I believe that they are not popular enough to facilitate the costs of writing your game on such a device. If you wanted to create a device that would facilitate your game - including digital dice rolling, I would look towards a Flash application on cell phones, as almost everyone has a cell-phone.

With all that being said, the question really is, what is your marketing plan?

I hear over and over, about how there is no real money in this market. And it makes me laugh each and every time. The only reason there is no money, is because people are creating games, without any business sense. Marketing is the key to making your game popular and financially successful. This forum should focus on business plans as much as it focuses on game design. I can promise you, that I can take the crappiest game on this forum and sell thousands of copies more then the best designed game here.

As for the no money comment: Let me give you the financials on a company that creates a popular tabletop game:

Avg Sale: $35.00
Worldwide marketing: European, US
Yearly Sales: $7 million

Last time I checked: $7million is a lot of money

One last hint, don't limit yourself to US markets. These games are far more popular in Germany and other European countries.


And another note, the constant comments like: This seems specific to you Andrew, and what your motives Andrew, further denote the hostility in this market that keeps the amateur designers that populate this board, amateurs. The only truth about this market is that it's hostile. So as you are considering the points here, weed out the information, and dump the smartass comments of no-name designers that would like you to perceive their self generated egos. And then take the people who are kind and genuine and reward them with replies and gratitude, and eventually the worthless shall dissipate or adapt.  

What can you expect; everyone has balls when they are behind a computer screen

Of course don't take my word for it, I am just some guy behind a computer...

[Andrew Morris]

Ryan, thanks for sharing your personal experiences with this. I'm not surprised to hear about your results when offering a game on a CD versus a print out of the same material. Heck, I'm the first one to say that I have a preference for print, so it's not a stretch for me to think that others feel this way as well.

And I'm certainly not going to dispute the power of marketing and advertising, since that's the field I work in. I've seen plenty of inferior products beat out superior products.

The question I'm really looking to answer is "why?" Why do I (and others) perceive electronic versions of a game as less valid or valuable than a print version?

As to the perceived hostility of the other posters, I don't think that's accurate at all. I honestly don't believe that anyone who'd posted was doing anything but attempting to discuss and address the topic. Now, I don't agree with everything that's been stated in this thread, but I have found the discussion to be honest, open, and useful.

[gatekeeper]

Ryan, thanks for sharing your personal experiences with this. I'm not surprised to hear about your results when offering a game on a CD versus a print out of the same material. Heck, I'm the first one to say that I have a preference for print, so it's not a stretch for me to think that others feel this way as well.

And I'm certainly not going to dispute the power of marketing and advertising, since that's the field I work in. I've seen plenty of inferior products beat out superior products.

The question I'm really looking to answer is "why?" Why do I (and others) perceive electronic versions of a game as less valid or valuable than a print version?

As to the perceived hostility of the other posters, I don't think that's accurate at all. I honestly don't believe that anyone who'd posted was doing anything but attempting to discuss and address the topic. Now, I don't agree with everything that's been stated in this thread, but I have found the discussion to be honest, open, and useful.

My comment in regards to hostility was broader then this post, but I respect your ability to 'not' take sly comments personaly.

The answer to your question is: Perception

I think it goes back to the old tale of Indians trading land and food for shinny beads. If its perceived as valueable then it is valueable.

PDF files are cheaper, and therefore are perceived as cheaper product. Books are expensive, and therefore perceived as valuable.

In another example: At one point we decided that our product was so great, we would simply give it away for free and get people to buy the expansions later on. Besides, who could resist something free, right?

Unfortunately, we learned an old lesson over again. By us giving that product away for FREE, we where telling people it has no value. And we rarely seen any traffic or sales from expansions. Then we changed our approach and started selling the product for a nominal production fee. And instantly people who paid for the product, became involved with the product, in the form of joining forums, message boards, and sending us reviews. Sure, our circulation of distributed product dropped, but we got the customers we wanted, instead of the customers that just grabbed it cause it cost nothing.

So the key is, if you could convince a market that PDF files where worth more then books, people wouldnt want the PDF file. The company I work for is doing a marketing campaign in Sept to test this theory. I will make sure and let you all know how it works.

One last point: Think about AOL and their marketing. Remember when you would get a CD in the mail and you didnt throw it away? I do, I use to have a collection of AOL CD's sitting all over my house. Then as CD's became cheaper, and burners became available, and people understood how cheap they are to reproduce, AOL CD's just get thrown in the trash. Which is why AOL is having such devastating financial issues. They are no longer reaching the masses, because their one Zerg advertising campaign is now perceived as worthless. (and the fact they charge 21.95 for internet service)

I hope this helps answer your question.

[Ria]

I see what you are saying regarding print vs. PDF, and you answered one of my questions. I was wondering if we offered printed material whether we should bind it or not. Thank you!

Also, in general, I don't think you're going to replace that feeling of owning something that you buy and hold in your hand vs. a PDF which you have to print out (perceived work AND payment and resources).

Also, I buy things visually - if I like the look of something, I pick it up and flip through it. If something seems put together with good eye-candy and useful material as well, I'll buy it. I think a web-site that offers PDF has to offer me the same thing looking at the book in the store would, or I am not going to think the creators know what I want or what they're talking about.

I also think that CDs or PDF are useful to give as a supplement, but I wouldn't want them instead of a book. It goes back to perceptions. For instance, I was reading the Dark Matter series, and they decided to put the next book online to be printed out by me. Screw that I said, and I stopped reading the series. I'd rather go to the store and buy it, than print it myself unless there are outstanding circumstances that show me why a PDF is just as good as a book.

I do not think this is prejudice or Ludditism, I think one literally has more value than another. I am glad to see I am not the only one who thinks that way. And no, I don't think someone can change my mind, because that's what I feel and believe and that's unlikely to change, no matter whether I should change or not.