Re-doing Bringing Down the Pain

[Andy Kitkowski]

From this thread:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=15779

I keep running into sharp edges that need to be filed in TSOY (especially with my new game I'm running - we've completely re-done Bringing Down the  Pain.)

How so?  Just curious.

My players for the most part really dig the system, though we sometimes run into muddy parts in some rules areas.  I'm curious about how you're redoing it.

Thanks!
-Andy

[Brennan Taylor]

I, too, await with bated breath. We've hit some muddy patches in my group as well, but I think that is more due to our getting used to the rules than to any actual system problems.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

I don't have time to write it up now, and it's not really tested yet. I will keep you guys in the loop, though.

Basically, I took what I have, and mixed it up with this:

http://random.average-bear.com/TSOY/AnOptionalCinematicBDTP

I'll discuss more later.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

New Bringing Down the Pain (BDTP)

Stay Up and Climbing are removed as abilities.

The new innate abilities are Endure (Vigor), React (Instinct), and Resist (Reason). Athletics is now an outdoor ability.

You have four health states now: Fine, Bruised, Bloodied, and Broken.

To be bruised means you have a momentary disadvantage. For your next roll in BDTP, you'll have a penalty die.

To be bloodied means you have a serious disadvantage in this conflict. For the rest of the scene, you have a penalty die.

To be broken means you've taken on a grievous disadvantage. Until this wound is healed (social faux pas overcome, dilemna solved, whatever), you have a penalty die.

In all the above states, this penalty die will only apply to certain types of actions. These can - basically - be resolved into Vigor-based actions, Instinct-based actions, and Reason-based actions. Which one you take a penalty die to depends on the nature in which you were damaged. If your arm is broken, take a penalty die to all Vigor-based actions. Obviously, there's some weird overlaps here. If you're made a fool of in front of the queen, take a penalty die to social actions, not necessarily all Instinct-based actions. You can still hunt just as well. (Or, maybe not! Maybe you have a lot of self-doubt now.)

In BDTP, we now take the difference in between Success Levels to compute damage. The winner is determined before weapons, but weapons add to damage afterwards. (Make sense?) (One note: if two people are perfoming non-intersecting actions - let's say you want to kill me and I want to make such a tasty-smelling dinner that you don't - we don't take the difference. We both always win, and both always take damage. Just hope you win with more Success Levels.)

In a tie, it's a stalemate.

One to two SLs is bruised.

Three to four is bloodied.

Five is broken.

Six is "Finish him!"

Imagine checkboxes on your character sheet like this:
Bruised   O O
Bloodied  O O
Broken    O

If you are bruised, check off a bruised box. If you're bruised again, check off the next. If bruised again, guess what? You take a bloodied result. The same happens with everything else, all the way up to "Finish him!" In "Finish him!" the winner's intention for BDTP is achieved.

You can still give, per normal, to let the other guy win. You should, if you see that's you're going to lose.

You cannot change intention for free. On a stalemate, we both can change intention for free, though.

That's the whole thing in a nutshell. Like I said, not tested at all really. I'll report on it more when it's used.

[Andy Kitkowski]

I haven't read through your whole description yet, but I just wanted to note:

New Bringing Down the Pain (BDTP)

Stay Up and Climbing are removed as abilities.

The new innate abilities are Endure (Vigor), React (Instinct), and Resist (Reason). Athletics is now an outdoor ability.

Damn, dude, this is almost exactly what I was thinking with regards to Innate abilities, right down to making Athletics an outdoor ability (it was getting overused in my games: Anything involving movement was being justified as "Athletics Rolls" by some of the players, including myself). Your breakdown of Endure, React and Resist are pretty slick. They're pretty much like Saving Throws with a different name, but hey, that works.  

Climbing: I don't think any of my players took any climbing, cause again they were using Athletics.  Removal is slick.

Stay Up: Will read through your revised BDTP in a bit.

Imagine checkboxes on your character sheet like this:
Bruised   O O
Bloodied  O O
Broken    O

If you are bruised, check off a bruised box. If you're bruised again, check off the next. If bruised again, guess what? You take a bloodied result.

Hah, this is really Ironic, because apparently on the FATE list they were talking about coupling Bringing Down the Pain with Fudge.  Your checkboxes look pretty much like the Fudge Health Levels.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=199502

It's interesting how things came full circle like this.  Fudge (FATE) always had the "three levels of conflict" (basically "one-roll" and "exchange of blows", with an intermediary).  It was suggested that you choose the one that suited your play style or player interests, with a heavy leaning by fans towards "Most rolls: One-roll, Combat: Exchange of Blows". BDTP is a great mechanic for navigating between the two, IMO. It's interesting to see people playing Fudge leaning towards innovations in TSOY, and TSOY's author leaning towards the structure that Fudge employs.

-Andy

[Clinton R. Nixon]

I saw someone post about Fate's combat on the TSOY wiki, and I took the idea to its logical conclusion from there. So - yep, Andy, that's where I got it from.

It eliminates two major issues - BDTP can be slow, and also Stay Up is the most important ability on the sheet. By removing it, we're much better.

I may - may allow you to buy new health levels later. One advance for a health level: each level must have at least one less than the one before it.

[Ben Lehman]

I may - may allow you to buy new health levels later. One advance for a health level: each level must have at least one less than the one before it.

Isn't that just the Secret of Hardiness?

yrs--
--Ben

[Matt Wilson]

In all the above states, this penalty die will only apply to certain types of actions. These can - basically - be resolved into Vigor-based actions, Instinct-based actions, and Reason-based actions. Which one you take a penalty die to depends on the nature in which you were damaged. If your arm is broken, take a penalty die to all Vigor-based actions. Obviously, there's some weird overlaps here. If you're made a fool of in front of the queen, take a penalty die to social actions, not necessarily all Instinct-based actions. You can still hunt just as well. (Or, maybe not! Maybe you have a lot of self-doubt now.)

I'd definitely go with the blanket pool-related penalty, rather than worry about various minutia.

The cool thing that strikes me about this revision is that there's a sort of death spiral only if you stay with your current goal. I think it might have the potential for rocking dilemmas. Like what if you're trying to save Crown Prince Frumpy's life? Do you switch pools and goals in order to keep your character safe? Rad.

[James_Nostack]

It eliminates two major issues - BDTP can be slow, and also Stay Up is the most important ability on the sheet. By removing it, we're much better.

Clinton - the changes to the skill list are good.  

I'm not as convinced about the changes to the damage states.  One of the things I really liked about The Shadow of Yesterday is that it didn't have "hit points."  Now they're back, and it looks like there are now three categories: physical, social, and spiritual.  

I dislike this because it increases book keeping, and also because it doesn't seem true to "pumpkin fiction" generally: in the new system if someone has taken a beating in combat, and then gets insulted by his girlfriend, that's two different damage tracks, perhaps with only moderate damage in each.  Whereas in Old BDTP, and in my interpretation of those stories, the guy is completely done for.  Yeah, it's not logical that getting a put-down should really do much to you after you've been stabbed 37 times, but from a narrative point of view it all seems to deplete a single "effectiveness" tank.

Just my 2 cents.

It seems like BDTP is mutating a lot...

[Clinton R. Nixon]

I'm not as convinced about the changes to the damage states.  One of the things I really liked about The Shadow of Yesterday is that it didn't have "hit points."  Now they're back, and it looks like there are now three categories: physical, social, and spiritual.

James - this is just an idea in testing right now, so don't fret too much. But, to argue - it totally had hit points. They were equal to Stay Up + 2d6, which just meant that how many you had could change.

I dislike this because it increases book keeping, and also because it doesn't seem true to "pumpkin fiction" generally: in the new system if someone has taken a beating in combat, and then gets insulted by his girlfriend, that's two different damage tracks, perhaps with only moderate damage in each.  Whereas in Old BDTP, and in my interpretation of those stories, the guy is completely done for.  Yeah, it's not logical that getting a put-down should really do much to you after you've been stabbed 37 times, but from a narrative point of view it all seems to deplete a single "effectiveness" tank.

Wait, wait, wait! You're reading it wrong. That still happens. Hmm... example time. Assume I'm using BDTP twice in this example.

I get in a huge fight, and let's say I get two Bloodied results (which can happen really quickly) before I give up. They don't kill me or anything, but leave me there to embarass me. My girlfriend walks up and insults me and gets a Bloodied result. But I don't have any more Bloodied spaces on my sheet - I take a Broken! Ouch.

[Vaxalon]

The new innate abilities are Endure (Vigor), React (Instinct), and Resist (Reason).

I'm confused about where these come in, during the conflict mechanics.

Or do they?

[Bill Cook]

I'd definitely go with the blanket pool-related penalty, rather than worry about various minutia.

Yep.

I get in a huge fight, and let's say I get two Bloodied results (which can happen really quickly) before I give up. They don't kill me or anything, but leave me there to embarass me. My girlfriend walks up and insults me and gets a Bloodied result. But I don't have any more Bloodied spaces on my sheet - I take a Broken! Ouch.

So there's only one damage track, regardless of the pool association of the abilities that caused it. However, the penalty die is particular. Pool-based damage qualifies application.

** ** **

By taking the difference of intersecting actions, you've made resistance more impactful, less all or nothing. The penalty die is more transient; only Broken requires healing.

Unless I'm misreading terribly, there are no more damage checks. Right?

I assume the Innate abilities are pool-particular Defense? Endure (V) would defend as a parry, say, and Resist (R) would defend as a snappy comeback.

[James_Nostack]

Wait, wait, wait! You're reading it wrong. That still happens.

Actually, I couldn't quite figure out the right way to phrase it earlier; it turns out that bcook1971 said it better than I could: :

...There's only one damage track, regardless of the pool association of the abilities that caused it. However, the penalty die is particular. Pool-based damage qualifies application.

So...

* If some dudes stab me in the kidneys and I am like, "Oh dude, weak!" then I am, say, bloody due to physical damage.  And with all physical stuff for the duration of the scene I take a penalty.

* And while the dudes are stabbing me my girlfriend appears on the balcony and says, "Stab him in the balls... if you can find them!" then I will be all like "OMFG beotch", and take enough (social) damage to become broken, which means means I take a penalty to all social stuff indefinitely.

* So, although there's a single ladder of 'damage points' or whatever, and getting stabbed or insulted eats away at them equally, a character still might be bruised spiritually, bloodied physically, and broken socially.  

This may not be exactly the same as three damage tracks, but it's close.  I'm not saying this is bad!  Just that it seems slightly less elegant then the rest of TSOY.  (It is quite possible that there is no ideal solution to this problem.)

[Vaxalon]

Nope, you've got it wrong.

You start out all fat and happy.

Bruised: 00
Bloodied: 00
Broken: 0

Then a couple of toughs come along, with your girlfriend in tow.  It's their intention to leave you unconscious, bleeding, helpless and penniless on the side of the road.

 First, the toughs beat the snot out of you.  You take two "bloodied" levels.

Bruised: 00
Bloodied: XX
Broken: 0

Then, in the same conflict, your girlfriend tells them to kick you in the balls.  You would be bloodied from this, but you haven't got any more bruised levels left, so now you're bloodied...

Bruised: 00
Bloodied: XX
Broken: X

Finally, to add injury to insult, they actually do as she says.  The last "bloodied" result gets graduated all the way up to "Finish him!" and you're left at their mercy.  They leave you, beaten senseless, on the side of the road.

Don't you just love these uplifting stories we use to describe the conflict systems?

[dyjoots]

The new innate abilities are Endure (Vigor), React (Instinct), and Resist (Reason).

I'm confused about where these come in, during the conflict mechanics.

Or do they?

I would assume you use them to defend during BDTP if you are just defending (e.g. changing your intentions).