Sim Centralization - Dependency on the GM and Alternatives

[David Bapst]

Take "Oh" to also include such things as standing up, posing, talking with your characters accent, talking about the terrible moment for several minutes on end, etc.

All adding lots of color and responce, but not taking control of the games direction one bit.

I see very little of that in tabletop games, and I've found the last action incurs enormous social penalty among the other gamers. All in all, I see players respond little, become very passive and their reasons I believe are so varied (I suppose Immersion would be one of this many) as to only matter on a personal basis.

You still haven't explained the connection to immersion though.  As far as I can tell, you are postulating that immersion always means inaction.  That has rarely been my experience.  In general, when I immerse in character I go into action, aggressively pursuing my character's goals.  I frequently get the opposite complaint -- that my behavior derails the game by shifting its direction too much.  

In my experience, I don't see any relation between active/passive and immersive/non-immersive.  There are plenty of non-immersive passive players who will think meta-game about where the GM wants the game to go and actively try to play along to that -- even if it makes no sense for their character.  There are also immersive passive players who play passive characters.

I have to agree with John here; Immersion has required me to act LOUDER and CRAZIER... Getting immersed in a quiet character is almost the worst curse possible in a Sim game, as it makes your impact on the game nil. Several times, I've also been told I go too "extreme" when immersed (I've... gone pretty far in the past, sometimes with personally embarrassing results. When the bearded guy plays a catgirl, stop yourself before you kiss his hand in the middle of over-immersion...).

That said, if I might return to my original topic for discussion, it seems that while centralization of GM power is normal in Sim, this does not need to be an iron-bound rule?

[M. J. Young]

I think I touch on this in Applied Theory, where I agree that decentralized play is perfectly possible in Simulationism.

I think that part of the problem with answering the question you're asking is that the majority even of Narrativist games centralize a great deal of credibility with the referee. Even though it's built to favor the bass-playing referee model, Sorcerer invests a great deal of credibility in the referee. Legends of Alyria goes so far as to suggest that it can be run without a referee, but the referee is included in the design. We have trouble finding any games in which someone isn't in charge at every moment. Simulationism is particularly entrenched in its traditions, and thus the least likely to provide good examples of decentralized credibility structures. However, it can be done, such as in Theatrix' assertion that character concepts may need troupe approval--a sort of democratic decision making process.

--M. J. Young

[David Bapst]

Well, MJ, it's not that I want to create GM-less Sim (well, you know what I really mean; a system where GM powers aren't centralized) but I've very willing just to find a halfway point: a game where the GM enjoys much less power, and the decision on how to define the genre is spread across the group. The troupe play suggested before comes up as the best example yet. By sharing the GM role, the players are taking turns at being the person who defines what the genre in the Sim is (I guess).

I've been thinking about this, and I think I've noticed some interesting relationships. I think once you start taking away the GM's specific control of Situation/Story (Setting and Color can be seperated just fine) we begin talking about something different, but I'm concerned about whether that's something Sim or Narr. It's hard to tell if there's no middle ground between Sim and Narr (I doubt it) or if once the whole group starts to interact as a whole on how Situation/Story develops.

(I think it may be possible that you could retain just Situation or just Story under GM control in order to keep a game recognizably Sim, but now I'm starting to get into stuff I've really never seen in actual play, so I won't bother to continue with such guessing.)