The Forge Archives

Thrilled to be wrapping things up!
Just need to finalize the work on the logo and layout the rules insert and the first game featuring the Duelist System will be completed!

Summarization:
"The Supers - The Good" is a 36 card set, featuring 3 different Super types (Alien, Mutant, Techie), 2 pieces of artwork for each. It will be packaged as 6 card sets w/ rulebook, which is all the game requires to play, and retail for $1 a pack.
Follow up sets include "The Bad", which introduces the "Heroes Dilemma" play style and allows for players to choose to be Heroes or Villains, as well as two lesser fleshed out sets "The Ugly" and "Past & Future Tense".
A rather quick & simple system, its quite fun and easy to design for.

http://www.neoproductions.net/images/Sidekick.JPG - Sidekick, a Tactic card from the game.

Part of the post is to illustrate just how easy this is to design for. A week ago,  I posted a concept thread of a "CCG Co-op" based on the Duelist system. The Supers was concieved between then and now, JUST a week later, and I have a finished game, sans the aforementioned rulebook and game logo.
Place an order for the components Monday, should take a week, probably going to be handing out free packs at GenCon and offering packs with orders through Key20.

For more information on the system and my idea, check out http://indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=15778
I'm also very keen on discussing how best to carry out a CCG "Co-op" or such service. I'd encourage the discussion here so everyone can chip in, but will take it to PMs from interested parties if Mods prefer.

Nate, nobody is going to be interested in Co-opping on a game unless they've seen the rules for it and a few sample cards.  I recommend you produce these materials and post them to the board.

Suppose should elaborate:
The thread I linked to, aside from some apperant ramblings, contains the gist of the system and the layout of how it is constructed. A "Rulebook" is in the works, yes, and will see the light of day shortly (tonight most likely).
The basic rules, as posted earlier, are quite simply, the one paragraph:

Quote
Basic system for the game is as follows:
Each player begins the game with 6 cards: 1 Duelist, 5 Supply Cards.
All cards begin on the playing space face down, the Duelist in front of each player with the 5 supply cards face down and off to the side.
Game begins with a random decision as to who goes first, and both players flip their Duelist over at the same time.
First player flips one of his or her Supply cards. They can either use the card as prescribed by exerting (using for the turn) any number of other Supply Cards or they can exert as many Supply Cards as directed by their Duelist and use an 'attack' listed on the Duelist card. Damage is subtracted from the opponent and then the turn switches over with the opposing player following the same.
Next turn begins, all exerted cards refresh and become usable again. Player flips their second Supply Card and so it repeats until one player has 0 HP.

The system itself is quite malable to the needs of the designer. There are no defined card types aside from the Duelist and "Supply", though the terminology may be adjusted to suit genre games, such as the Supers (The "Duelist" is instead the "Super",  and card types "Gadget", "Power", "Tactic"). #1 rule of the game is to play the cards as they are written, which with good design and the limited scope of play should bar any of the hedious issues that plauge other games in terms of errata, bannings, and timing issues. This also means that "Card Types" go from structure to color and create only few definitions (IE for the linked Sidekick: "Choose an Opponent's Power or Tactic card. Sidekick has that ability." All Power and Tactic means are convienent labels to restrict what can and cannot be done aside from creating definitions themselves, such as with Instants, Interrupts, etc.)
A Design Document would detail exactly how to port terminology and contain tips/hints/guidelines for developing the titles.

At this point, I just want some discussion on the possibility/interest of forging a co-op in general. More information on co-opting THIS system will become available as I'm working it out and producing something viable.

Co-opping will require that someone take the lead.  Someone needs to design a core structure and a sample implementation of that structure.  Then that person will be required to do the legwork to choose a printer and provide cost breakdown options for various levels of production.  Then there will need to be legal documentation on who owns what -- a boilerplate licensing agreement, plus, probably some non-disclosure agreement as needed.

Then there will need to be (ideally) some communal method of playtest or review for new cards so that all characters from Designer A are not inherently superior to characters designed by Designers B, C, & D.

Then there will need to be some method or schedule for submission of new characters.

Then the agreements will need to specify who will handle the deal with the printing company, who will review the materials as they come back, and how.  Will you review everything?  Will each printer review their own materials and packaging, etc.?

Co-operative ventures are complicated things and should not be entered into lightly.  There should definitely be a fair bit of legal paperwork, research, and design done up front.

Quote from: daMoose_NeoThe basic rules, as posted earlier, are quite simply, the one paragraph:

Without sample cards these are meaningless.  It sounds kinda like Magic the Gathering, except that you start with one creature and a finite number of cards already in play.  Without sample cards, this sounds like a flavorless game lacking strategy.  With the right cards this might be the next Magic the Gathering.  Again, I re-iterate, you need a fully functioning rulebook AND a sample implementation.  This is true not only for your game, but for any game for which a co-op is being proposed.

Come up with 2 characters and 5 supply cards per character.  Put them up as examples of the concept.

Also, you need a real cost breakdown. The one posted in the original thread is insufficient because (though I may be missing something, I'm visually impaired) it doesn't mention the quantities one needs to publish in to get those rates.  Do I need to produce 100,000 rulebooks to get them for 5 cents each?  Can I just produce one?

Hmmkay:

- Production. Guess what: 1 or 1,000. Take your pick. Between some of my own channels as well as Rapid POD's ability to print playing cards, production would be simple and produceable. Only "limit" is RPOD's presses cut 18 cards to a sheet, meaning it'd probably be a minimum of 3 packs (6 cards to a pack, hence 3 packs to a sheet.).

Final product would consist of:
- "Duelist System" header card attached to a plastic bag. Headers are ordered in bulk, can get a few thousand at a time for around a cent a piece, as well as the bags, which are of nice quality, already use this packaging style for Final Twilight's expansions.
- Rules insert, facing out carrying the individual game's information (Logo, artwork, if its Starter or Booster, Item numbers, etc). This leaves 7 'pages' 2.5x3.5 each for the author to explain their version of the system, setting etc. and provide additional pitches if they want.
- 6 cards, produced with your facings and logos.

Group Playtesting, in my mind and vision, is more of an optional and a handy thing than a neccesity. Each game would be, for all intents and purposes, independant. If you wanted your game to carry YuGiOh style numbers ranging into the tens of thousands, go for it. Again, this is where a design document would outline what could and could not be done with the system. Sheer card removal, life gain, and card "death" would be fairly stupid in the system. Different effects, however, like stacking the cards as a deck vs. laying them out, "Flip" effects, die or coin systems, defensive values etc. are all capable of being carried out by the system.  

Gimme a bit, I'll have a pair of play packs and my playtest rules up.

Quote from: daMoose_Neo- Production. Guess what: 1 or 1,000. Take your pick. Between some of my own channels as well as Rapid POD's ability to print playing cards, production would be simple and produceable.

Wild.  When I called Ken, I thought he said that he was going to charge (I may be wrong) like $3 to $5 for double-sided full color cards (18 per page).

Yet you've quoted only $1.50 per 18 (50 cents per 6).

Did he come down on his prices?

He didn't.
Note I didn't mention the laminate coating. The cards are also available without that.
In playtest, a good card stock has held up to the wear and tear these cards are likely to recieve. Its an extra $1.50 for that laminate, and considering the cards won't be shuffled or otherwise abused as much as their counterparts in larger decks, the laminate is more or less a wasted expense. I mean, look at Monopoly: all of the Chance cards, for example, are on a standard, non-coated stock. Those hold up for a good long while.
Given there are 5 cards to a "deck", they won't get as much abuse~

BTW, loading the pack now, with just a playtest Word rulebook and Alien and Mutant packs. Rulebook is a mite friendlier than most, partly because I *hate* writing text-book/how-to like, partly because it was written more for people I know, and partly (now in hindsight, lol) because it gives a little bit of that relaxed but friendly and "excited" atmosphere you get from reading Stan Lee's old Bullpen articles (The odd things you realize when sifting through 60+ years of comics-history for research).

[EDIT] Here be the requested sample game: http://www.neoproductions.net/files/TheSupers.zip
Contains 2 fully playable sets of cards and a rulebook  ^_^

Nate, you have a couple of card wording problems (like it's not super obvious as to whether Crushing Blow is +1 when you air airborne or when your opponent is airborne -- I assume when you are airborne, but that's unclear).

Also, you should note in your rules that all attacks (including Basic Attacks) are Melee attacks unless otherwise noted.

If "Rubble" tokens are a vaguely common game mechanic, you should talk about how they get in play and how they are discarded, just so people know what they are.  Even one or two sentences should cover this.

Lastly, your rulebook should note that words like "Mutant" or "Alien" in between dashes at the top of the card text is a usability check.  This card is playable only by a character with the appropriate type of origin.

That said, you wanted to primarily discuss co-ops and not your game per se.  Seeing a game like this, I can't help but think that you should hook up with Greg Porter and simply market this as a customizable do-it yourself game.

See this thread and his Infinite Armies game distribution for ideas on this:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=15850

Talk to Louis Porter and get a special license to include lots of his art, cut down to the image frame size, in your distributions.

I bet that's probably easier to do than to build up a card co-op.

I can see why your design is well-suited for a card co-op.  However, I think it's almost better suited toward a PDF which allows players to build their own cards from stock art.  Perhaps I'm wrong.

Lee Valentine (Veritas Games) suggested I chime in on this thread. I'm working on a player-customizable pdf-based card game (print your own and then sleeve them), with a demo at:

http://www.btrc.net/html/iarmies.html

While it does not fit the exact format of your sample card, the full iA engine (the demo is crippled) will allow complete customization of the card abilities and graphics, and could probably be adapted to any rule- or case-based card design system, which could let a) a co-op producer create cards as fast as they could click a mouse or b) let players create their own "legal" cards for play. The card creation engine could also be modified to explicitly fit any given card format, but that would require work on my part rather than the end user to set up the initial coding for it.

But the main benefit of something like iA is that you put the production in the hands of the end user, so you don't have to print a thousand packs of cards and worry about how you're going to move them.

If a pdf model for the game strays too far from the thread, blame Lee. He pointed me here...;)

Greg Porter
BTRC games

Greg-
Actually, Final Twilight's newest supplement Divergence is more along the lines of your Infinite Armies, allowing players to design cards compatable with the existing Final Twilight line.

Thanks for the chime in, but I'm afraid you're right: it is a touch too far, though not totally removed from the thread. At this point, nearly anyone can produce a PDF CCG; what I have in mind is an in hand, FLGS available game. Production *normally* is an issue, but I've managed to get it to a point that I  feel comfortable with what I can move and what I have on hand. Not so with Twilight's original deck release, but the expansions are much easier to manage. I want to offer some of these same channels to a smaller designer to produce their physical games.

Lee -
Thanks for the nit picks ^_^ While not the focus of the thread, I do appreciate them and will impliment them ASAP.

As for working on a project with/akin to Gregs, its not quite the goal. Easier, granted, but not the goal.
I'm working on a way to deliver an indie-based game into the hands of a player via a physical copy. CCG Gamers, in my personal experiance, are more defensive than RPG players, and I *believe* a PDF CCG would experiance more of a 'backlash' (or be ignored more often) than PDF RPGs experiance now. (Greg, maybe you have some different experiances? Love to hear if you have ^_^)
The idea here is for an indie designer to produce their card game and get it physically into other players hands. A universal system helps relieve some of the stress of learning new systems (as many CCG players already regularly play 5/6 games), the low card requirement allows a lower cost to play and is a more enticing impulse purchase, and the co-op of sorts allows basic materials (such as packaging and even rules) to be purchased in bulk by the organizer and sold to the developer at a much reduced rate.

As a final note, you do have a point Greg in that the software would be invaluable for laying out and generating the card images ^_^ I ended up coding my own software for laying out Twilight in VB and considered making it available for Divergence or a co-op if it happened, but really all it is is a code hack I use myself. Finalizing it would require a little too much work and be vastly inefficiant with my coding. Be interested in using your engine though if we could work something out.

Nate,
Go to the site in my message and download the demo. If you like what it can do, we'll see how much work it would take to adapt it to your needs.

As far as the pdf/ccg angle and backlash, I really have no idea. To my knowledge, no one has done anything quite like Infinite Armies before, where complete artistic control of card design is placed in the hands of the end user, and card mechanics are user-selectable within the Infinite Armies rule set (it's a point-based card creation system). I'm hoping the built-in creativity aspect and the fact that you never have to "buy rares" again will be a strong draw. I guess we'll see in a month or two.

Greg
BTRC

Sorry 'bout asking for Greg's intervention.  You folks looked like you had some mutual point of interest.  Guess I was wrong.

I had thought, that even if you didn't use it for general distribution, you might license Greg's code to pass out to co-op partners so that they could ship you completed PDFs with cards all ready to go.

Nate, as a service to your cause I created the following files:

http://www.veritasgames.net/downloads/supers_errata.txt

http://www.veritasgames.net/downloads/supers_rules.pdf

I tried your game.  At least with the cards written as is, there were almost no strategic options.

For example, your Psi-blast punishes me if I have cards in play but the rules MAKE ME put more cards into play against my will.

Similarly my SEISMIC WAVE punishes you for rubble counters in play, so you may want to NOT put your "The City" card into play.

My version of the game gives a lot more player control of the environment for not many more pages of rules.

Hopefully you'll approve of the changes.  If you don't, let me know and I'll delete the files from my site.

The game, as tweaked, plays more like a simplified version of the Versus System with just one character per team.

I tweaked the way that non-Supers get played and revealed.  I also tweaked a few other points of game play.  The rulebook above represents my tweaks plus your original work.  Feel free to ignore it, or to take it to your site and distribute it.

We're trying to get our own mass market CCG out by the end of 2005 (if our art license goes through), so I don't know if I'll participate too much in the co-op directly, but my efforts here are just my way to offer you moral support.

Don't take offense with my nitpicking -- I'm trying to help you get your game in shape to help your dream become a reality.

Best regards.

Quote from: btrcI'm hoping the built-in creativity aspect and the fact that you never have to "buy rares" again will be a strong draw.

Thats my fondest wish with Twilight, though CCG players are a little set in their ways. These kinds of concepts definetly have an appeal to RPG players or boardgame crowds, but the CCG crowd is a tough nut to crack.

As for point-built systems: Dragonelves, by Fast Forward Entertainment, billed as an e-card game. Little bit different: you buy packs with scratch off cards and can use that many points (verified by some kind of security code I believe) to design cards. Pinnicle also signed with them to produce Deadlands under the same kind of system. (Been looking, can't find a site, pooie).

Pretty sure you're about the only fully customizable system available however. To my knowledge, Twilight's about the only one that will have a player-made option while still maintaining publisher support.

Lee -

Slick ^_^
Actually, Seismic Wave isn't abused as badly as you believe. Can get big, fast, yes, but typically it doesn't become effective until the third turn or so.
Against another Mutant, damage is automatically reduced by one, against an Alien its a melee attack and so is reduced by one anyway. Techies have the most to fear from it, but have options ranging from becoming Airborne themselves (Mechanical Wings or Power Suit) to reducing damage (Again, Power Suit or Shield). Super Strength can also clear a few early Rubble pieces generated by Seismic Wave, though The City replaces them.
Playing as written, a First turn Seismic Assault with a Second turn The City against an Alien won't produce real damage until the third turn. Techies are, as mentioned, more at danger though they have their own ways about it.

As for the tweaks:
Not sure how much of it I want to adapt. The goal of the game is to wrap up in about 5 turns, which the current setup does admirably. I also intentionally steered clear of a Vs. style "Resource" and use. I do appreciate the look (and the remarks!), but had I wanted to play as such, I'd simply play or recommend Vs. This plays a little faster with a more furious atmosphere (skillful manipulation of the resources you do have, lucky strikes, glancing blows, missed opprotunities). There is, however, a good deal to be absorbed into my format and I'd really like to thank you for the rules.

Many many thanks for the support, however! Making me re-think a few aspects and definetly rework a few more ^_^ Always good to get another eye~