The Forge Archives

If you ever wondered at how much functionality you can cram into a pdf, I have the demo version of Infinite Armies up at:

http://www.btrc.net/html/iarmies.html

This is somewhat of a game design post and somewhat of a publishing one (and maybe a little shameless self-promotion), since it covers all these areas. You can cram an amazing amount of interactivity and programming into a pdf, and use that to get people using the pdf instead of just reading it. If someone has come up with a more advanced game-related pdf than the iArmies demo, I have yet to see it.

And that's just the demo. The full product will knock people's expectations of what a pdf can do for a loop. Right now, too many of our pdfs are simply glowing screen versions of a print product, with little extra value except the fact that we price them a lot lower than the print product. Infinite Armies is a concept that is simply impossible without advanced pdf (or other) programming, yet in the end is still a table-top product.

Is this sort of interactivity and advanced functionality the direction we (pdf publishers) should be headed in?

Greg Porter
BTRC

Greg, this is a really interesting idea.  FYI -- the PDF freezes up for short periods of time sometimes and doesn't always refresh well.  Also if you select an image and then cancel the original image is wiped out.

That said, the idea is great.

You'd probably make more profit, however, if you put this online and then had an automated way to submit an order of Print on Demand cards.

That said, this idea is really amenable to shipping out packs of skins, royalty-free art, etc. to use to allow people to make their own cards.

I would be concerned, depending on whether or not fans end up posting this stuff on their websites -- and you KNOW they will, that you may have some liability issues that could bite you if you were unfortunate.  I'd really encourage people just to use the stuff you put out, and then leave it to them to add stuff from the internet, etc.

I think I have one of your older products (I may be wrong), but if memory serves I think it's some sort of live action game using rock-paper-scissors (or some other finger-method of task resolution).  So I was amused to see it used again.  A man who likes going back to the basics.

A fantastic idea that needs a bit more consideration before coming to life, but a great idea nonetheless.

BTW -- and completely off topic, if we bought EABA from you instead of RPGNOW, how do we get the updated version?  Buy it again?  Or is there a free update?

QuoteGreg, this is a really interesting idea. FYI -- the PDF freezes up for short periods of time sometimes and doesn't always refresh well. Also if you select an image and then cancel the original image is wiped out.

The former is subject to your processor power and stuff like the current screen magnification and phase of the moon. Those two pages of demo are 4 megs of code and images. If you turn the autocalc feature off it will run much smoother on slower machines (or machines with a full load of Acrobat plug-ins clogging them), and if you do anything that forces a full screen redraw (like changing page magnification), any visual artifacts clear up. The rules will ask you to try the iArmy builder on all the Reader versions you have just to see which it works best on for you.

The latter is an unfortunate compromise necessary to get the thing to work under Reader 5, 6 and 7. I'm still trying to find some code to get around that. They removed in 6 and 7 the command that works in Reader 5, so I had to use an alternate program method to import the images. The problem is that when you commit to importing a new image, you're also commiting to getting rid of the old one.

QuoteYou'd probably make more profit, however, if you put this online and then had an automated way to submit an order of Print on Demand cards.

I looked into POD card decks, and the price is exorbitant. And trying to run this code over a web server would be awful.

QuoteThat said, this idea is really amenable to shipping out packs of skins, royalty-free art, etc. to use to allow people to make their own cards.

That's the general idea. I'm also going to provide free Photoshop templates to get people started on designing their own.

QuoteI would be concerned, depending on whether or not fans end up posting this stuff on their websites -- and you KNOW they will, that you may have some liability issues that could bite you if you were unfortunate. I'd really encourage people just to use the stuff you put out, and then leave it to them to add stuff from the internet, etc.

The main game rules explicitly go into that and what you can and cannot do (or should and should not do). We're only going to distribute stuff we bought rights to or is royalty-free, but anything the end user does is up to them. So, if a player wants to make an all-centerfold Macho Women army, that's beyond our control. Anything is possible from a lawsuit standpoint, but I think a successful lawsuit against a program that lets you open and import pdfs would signify the end of the Computing Age as we know it.

QuoteBTW -- and completely off topic, if we bought EABA from you instead of RPGNOW, how do we get the updated version? Buy it again? Or is there a free update?

Free update. Tell me where/when you got it, and I'll send you a comp link for the latest version.

Greg
BTRC

Quote from: btrcI looked into POD card decks, and the price is exorbitant.

It's terrible to outsource.  It's not nearly as bad if you own your own equipment.

QuoteAnd trying to run this code over a web server would be awful.

I wouldn't run that code.  I'd run something else and let people pick from options.

QuoteAnything is possible from a lawsuit standpoint, but I think a successful lawsuit against a program that lets you open and import pdfs would signify the end of the Computing Age as we know it.

I was referring to your comment on your website telling people they can take stuff off of the internet.

QuoteI was referring to your comment on your website telling people they can take stuff off of the internet.

Fair enough. I was thinking mostly of the gazillions of bytes of free stuff on .mil sites, but I've clarified the iArmies page on that matter. Thanks.

Greg
BTRC

Hey,

This is awesome Greg.  I've just been thinking about what I could do with PDFs since I've been working on this big project for my work (I do multi-media for a living and work a lot with PDFs)  For folk who would like to try stuff like this, two great resources for utilizing Javascript as well as all the other really cool shit you can do with Acrobat can be found here:

http://www.planetpdf.com/
http://www.adobe.com/support/forums/main.html

And make sure you read:
http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/acrobat/sdk/index_doc.html
http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/pdf/topic_js.html

Keith

Quoteresources for utilizing Javascript as well as all the other really cool shit you can do with Acrobat can be found here:

http://www.planetpdf.com/
http://www.adobe.com/support/forums/main.html

And make sure you read:
http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/acrobat/sdk/index_doc.html
http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/pdf/topic_js.html

Since I had to teach myself AcroJS from the ground up for this project, PlanetPDF was an invaluluable resource, and I also picked up some tips about undocumented features and other things through tips and links there. For instance the "app.thermometer" progress meter for long operations works in Reader 5, but is not documented in version 5 AcroJS. Or, there is a security flaw that allows you to create Reader documents that can export form data and save changed versions of the file (though I decided not to use this for a commercial product ;).

I think I have all the AcroJS docs from 5 through 7, even though I'm only writing in 5 for maximum backward compatibility (and because Reader 5 runs so much faster and cleaner than 6 and 7 IMHO).

The Adobe SDK stuff never did much for me, since I'm not a "developer" and am not creating or using any custom plug-ins, but the Adobe support page was occasionaly useful (planetpdf was more so).

Sounds like you've already got a solid handle on AcroJS, but if you have any questions about how to implement something, I may have already been down that road.

Greg
BTRC

Greg, I suggest you chime in on this thread:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=15847

Nate Petersen is talking about setting up a card co-op for a small press game.  He may disagree, but I think your design-on-the-fly engine would be perfect for Nate's game.

Sorry, if I butted in where I wasn't wanted.  This just looks like a marriage of game and technology.

Greg, very exciting. I remember when you showed me the prototype of this at MACE last year. It's come a long way.

So what are your plans for selling this? How much? Download? CD? Will you sell any printed matter?

-L

QuoteSo what are your plans for selling this? How much? Download? CD? Will you sell any printed matter?

Luke, at this time, looks to be about a 15 meg download for the game, rules and initial image set, for about $10, with "boosters" of say 50 images and a few new card skins and pre-designed decks for maybe $2.50.

At GenCon I hope to sell a CD + printed rules + printed sample army, with the cost depending on what kind of deal I can get at the local Office Max (coupons) for color printing. And, anyone who wants it on CD after GenCon can order it that way.

Greg

Cool site look at it Buy Tramadol

Quote from: btrcIs this sort of interactivity and advanced functionality the direction we (pdf publishers) should be headed in?

Greg Porter
BTRC

Personally, I would say no.

First is the compatibility issue. On Acrobat 5 I ran into several problems, and many of my customers use Acrobat Reader 4.

Second, the pdf itself moved very very slowly on my laptop, and that is the problem with PDFs in general. The bigger it is, the slower it moves in Acrobat Reader.

`Le, aka The Le Games

QuoteFirst is the compatibility issue. On Acrobat 5 I ran into several problems, and many of my customers use Acrobat Reader 4.

Obviously I am very interested in any problems, especially with Acrobat 5, which is what the program was written with maximum compatibility for.

Some things can be tweaked code-wise, others can't. For instance, unit special abilities do not refresh icons until you click somewhere else. Can't be helped. Sometimes the graphics on a page do not completely redraw. Can't do anything about that either except to suggest you pull some of your Acrobat plug-ins to increase speed and do a change of page magnification to force a screen refresh. The former is a program limit and beyond my control. The latter is a function of the user's system and I can only offer suggestions to minimize it.

But, if the problems are because you're trying to run it on a 233Mhz Pentium II, then that I can't help you with.

I run it on a 500Mhz iBook with no problems, and my desktop is only a 733Mhz machine (and it runs flawlessly in Reader 5, 6 and 7). I've got a beat-up old 400Mhz Pentium III under my desk for Windows compatibility tests, and it runs fine on that (albeit sluggishly). What speed and operating system are you having problems with?

Acrobat Reader is currently on version 7, and is free. Why are many of your customers still using version 4, which is over 6 years old at this point (or about 130 in human years)? The only reason I use 5 is because that's the last version of the Acrobat Editor that I have and I'm too cheap to upgrade to 7, so I need 5 for editing (not reading) purposes.

Greg
BTRC

I mispoke, alot of my customers are using version 5/6, with a few version 4.

I use Acrobat (writer) 5. Since I have that, I have had no need for Acrobat Reader. I will look up the error when I get home.

I run on a 2.2 ghz laptop with 512 ram, and ran into slowdowns just scrolling down. I have little problems on my PC though with such things, but my laptops have always had some problems with pdfs, and I suspect others have the same issues.

Alot of people are still on version 5 or 6 and have absolutely no desire to upgrade. It is a mistake to assume that your customers will always be on the latest and greatest version of the software.

For example, there is still alot of people using OS9, which only supports Acrobat 5.

Many more still use Windows 2000 sp1, which onyl supports Acrobat 5.

What always baffles me are those others that still use Windows 95 or 98.

go fig.

but personally, if I were going to make an interactive game, I would do it in an actual software program or html/javascript. But I may be wrong, and you may be write. It would definitely be a niche market. Let me know how it works out for you.

`Le

QuoteI use Acrobat (writer) 5. Since I have that, I have had no need for Acrobat Reader. I will look up the error when I get home.

Ah, there is a difference. Don't know why, but sometimes the program crashes my Editor 5 or brings up irrelevant Java errors. Most commonly something about function "buttonshade" not being found. These have no effect when using it in Reader.

QuoteI run on a 2.2 ghz laptop with 512 ram, and ran into slowdowns just scrolling down. I have little problems on my PC though with such things, but my laptops have always had some problems with pdfs, and I suspect others have the same issues.

May be smaller amounts of video RAM or procession power on laptops. Not sure on that one. Also, Reader does funny things with video memory on vertical scrolling as opposed to horizontal scrolling as I recall. Make sure to set your Reader to cache pages so it has things in memory rather than having to read them off the hard disk.

QuoteAlot of people are still on version 5 or 6 and have absolutely no desire to upgrade. It is a mistake to assume that your customers will always be on the latest and greatest version of the software.

True enough. One reason it took me so long to get Reader 7 was the download time on a dial-up connection.

QuoteFor example, there is still alot of people using OS9, which only supports Acrobat 5.

Actually, I prefer OS9 myself, but I switch to OSX for testing of Reader 6 and 7 (and 5 running under OSX).

Quotebut personally, if I were going to make an interactive game, I would do it in an actual software program or html/javascript.

Probably, but I am more fluent in AcroJS than the full thing, and it lets people have the rules and army builder in a program (Reader) that they are likely already comfortable with and used to seeing my products in.

Greg
BTRC