Big Setting + Open Character Gen = overwhelming!

[yesala]

I'm having a head scratching problem to do with character creation.  Since this issue can apply to any game, and I'm not looking for responses that are directly related to my own work, I thought this part of the forum would be the place to put it!  So here goes:

I like a game world to have internal consistency. I like it when things make sense - why does this society exist? What underpins it? Why does the government work (or if it doesn't, is it failing convincingly?)? Why do the people do what they do - why are they farmers, or soldiers, or merchants? What is the incentive or the force behind it? How have relations with the neighbours been established? Why are we at war, or not at war?

I am disappointed in games that say, "The Overlord Badguy rules his people with an iron fist. They all cower in fear and do whatever they're told. The country is obedient and quiet, otherwise they are killed by Badguy's evil police." So how do these terrified people make a living? How are the evil police controlled? How does one man actively manage the whole country? Does he have a time maching that allows him to stop time and keep up on administrative affairs or what? Who makes sure the grain gets to every corner of the country? Why aren't the people fleeing the country on boats or foot as fast as they can? Why doesn't a foreign power invade the Land of Badguy and liberate it with peasant support? What the heck is going on?

I like a detailed setting which makes sense, where you'll be able to say about your character: "This is where I fit into society. Here is where I came from. This is what I do. That over there is where I'm trying to go. Here's how I interact with these other kinds of people." And it will all make sense. But this requires a lot of background material.

Additionally, I am not a huge fan of template character creation. In my opinion, players should be able to sit back, crack a beer, and say, "I want to play a blah-blah-blah" and then just make it. Obviously, there needs to be some kind of structure so you don't just make a samurai lava dragon with laser beam eyes and an atom bomb strapped to his nipples, but basically I like to let players really develop a character they like and truly want to play, as a concept, and then build it. So that means not forcing them into the narrow confines of a template. Lately, when I've done character generation with players, we start with no paper. I ask the player what kind of character they'd like to play, and then pepper them with questions to focus their thoughts and get into the character's background and motivations. This has produced almost without fail really interesting and deep characters, which the players have loved. And a strict template system really gets in the way of this (unless you have about a billion templates!).

Here's the problem: how do you have a complex, interesting and wide ranging setting, and then have a wide open character generation system, and expect the players to know what they heck they should make when they begin? A first time player will have no idea of where to begin. It's unrealistic to expect everyone to read the huge setting section before character generation. I suspect that this is chiefly why templates exist.

So how does a designer deal with these things? 

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

I have a couple of ideas.

1. Check out HeroQuest, which is probably the Numero Uno example for what you're describing. And boy, did they put a lot of thought into it, in this book, and I think it pays off. There is literally no setting in RPG culture more elaborate and even deep than Glorantha. But the character creation is so open that you, personally, get to define most of your character's abilities from the ground up ... and if you want, leave your character sheet practically blank so you can fill it in as you go!

2. More generally, I want to take one quick peek at one of your assumptions:

I like a detailed setting which makes sense, where you'll be able to say about your character: "This is where I fit into society. Here is where I came from. This is what I do. That over there is where I'm trying to go. Here's how I interact with these other kinds of people." And it will all make sense. But this requires a lot of background material.

C'mon over here and I'll tell you a scary thing: no, it doesn't.

As long as this desire/preference of yours is shared among the group, then setting-prep can be quite light (not much more than a look & feel, maybe a map lifted from another game book), and you guys can fill in details as you go. And it'll all be consistent! Why? Because you all want it to be, and enjoy it when one another helps.

If you like, you can put the bulk of that responsibility on the Game Master, during his or her prep for each individual session, and if, during play, everyone helps fill holes rather than try to exploit them, then all is well.

Weird, I know. And it'll never sell 100 setting/clan splatbooks. But boy is it fun to play, and what's fun to play, makes for happy and long-term groups, and even spreads like wildfire.

Best,
Ron

[Justin Marx]

I am disappointed in games that say, "The Overlord Badguy rules his people with an iron fist. They all cower in fear and do whatever they're told. The country is obedient and quiet, otherwise they are killed by Badguy's evil police." So how do these terrified people make a living? How are the evil police controlled? How does one man actively manage the whole country? Does he have a time maching that allows him to stop time and keep up on administrative affairs or what? Who makes sure the grain gets to every corner of the country? Why aren't the people fleeing the country on boats or foot as fast as they can? Why doesn't a foreign power invade the Land of Badguy and liberate it with peasant support? What the heck is going on?

As a complete and nebulous aside, I am living in the People's Republic (hah!) of China, and boy, do I see this crap everyday. Tyranny is real and the maliciousness and effectiveness of it is something I intend to put into every game I play from here on.

Sorry for potentially derailing the post, Ron's answer is dead on the money. HeroQuest is definately worth checking out in this regard.

[simon_hibbs]

Template and open-ended characetr generation are not mutualy exclusive. Many games allow for both, giving the players options as to how much structure or guidance they want in developing their character. Hero Quest has already been mentioned, but even GURPS does it. In fact it may even be the rule among points-based character gen systems, as against being the exception.

Simon Hibbs

[Vaxalon]

No, it's not the rule... or at least it wasn't always.

Almost all points-based systems have templates, simply to enable mathophobes to play.

[ragnar]

I've found the second point Ron makes to be very true. If the GM lays down the feel and style of the setting, the players will be more than happy to fill in some of the details. Deciding that their character comes from such and such village where the oldest son in every family had to join a weird religious order and so on. As the campaign goes on the players will become more and more at home in the world, and you can have lots of fun with returning to places they've been and encountering characters from the past. Most players will realy enjoy having elements they created in their characters background be brought into play. If at this point they want or need (accidents happen) to create a new character, they will be much more familiar with the world as they have experienced it first hand.

Having a complex and detailed setting in books can hamper rather than help the play. It may be good for character creation, but if the GM keeps looking in source books during play to check all kinds of details about the world it will slow down the game and quickly stifle the flow of the story. The same can be true for complex game rules, but now I'm getting way off-topic...

Ragnar

[Justin Marx]

Having a complex and detailed setting in books can hamper rather than help the play. It may be good for character creation, but if the GM keeps looking in source books during play to check all kinds of details about the world it will slow down the game and quickly stifle the flow of the story. The same can be true for complex game rules, but now I'm getting way off-topic...

I'll second that. Not only an unending line of cash-cow sourcebooks with detail of no relevance to the players, but meta-plots written into settings drive me crazy. Not only are the characters of no use to this meta-plot, but the GM can't even start creating without destroying it all together. A strong premise, with just enough detail, and a lot of room to maneouvre.

[LogicaLunatic]

Here's the problem: how do you have a complex, interesting and wide ranging setting, and then have a wide open character generation system, and expect the players to know what they heck they should make when they begin? A first time player will have no idea of where to begin. It's unrealistic to expect everyone to read the huge setting section before character generation. I suspect that this is chiefly why templates exist.

So how does a designer deal with these things? 

Let the players get a grasp for the world by playing characters that are very similar to themselves.  When playing a new game I always recommend to players that their first character should be as much like themselves as possible.  These self exploration campaigns usually only last a few levels (long enough for them to come to grips with what the world is like) and then once they know how THEY'D react to the world they can start imagining how other types would react.