The Forge Archives

I have this idea in my head for a game called "Rise Again." I have a background and a Premise, but I need some feedback on mechanics that would feed the Premise. I'd like to mention the original idea for this comes from my friend Kevin "Call Me" Treadway, even though I've taken it in a very different direction.

First, the background. Warning: A lot of this is just flavor. I like flavor sometimes.



"I will describe the battle of Fort Donelson, more minutely than any other in which I was engaged from the fact that it was my first Baptism of Shot and Shell and was a land and naval battle all in one. Fort Donelson consisted of two batteries on the Cumberland River, protected by breast works surrounding it, "manned" mostly by BA primates of one sort or another. On the 12th day of February, 2062, The battle opened with sharp shooting all along the line on both sides. The first day's battle closed with no perceptible gain by either side. Day broke on the 13th to wind two armies looking each other in the face. The bombings and sharp shooting commenced as the day before had. The Yankees brought up one gun boat near the fort and fired about one hundred and fifty belts of ammo by some estimates. The one of our armor-piercing shells went crashing through her, damaging her so she went drifting out of sight and was seen no more. Along the fortifications the Infantry kept a continual firing on both sides all day, killing and wounding a great many on both sides. The dead and wounded were left on the battle field to take a terrible snow storm which fell that night several inches deep, though the BA dogmen were unaffected due to their fur. Some of the wounded scratched around to save their lives from the burning woods that had caught on fire from the guns during the day's battle (which was a beautiful fair day) and remained there to perish in the snow.

"Day broke on the 14th to find everything covered in snow. We were without shelter, food, or fire to warm by, except for a few small sticks. The animals fared better than the men. Up until this time we scored victory at every point. The enemy attacked our works at every point and were repulsed with heavy loss. While we were rejoicing over victories they were greatly reinforced.

"By greatly reinforced I mean their air calvary arrived, navy blue gunships, their rotors making a terrible noise in the air, softer and yet more chilling than the artillery.

"At the break of day on the 15th we were far outside the lines of our breast works, attacking; firing volley after volley into them as they huddled by their camp fires. Having taken them by surprise, with less than 16,000 men we waded through the snow and routed 60,000; capturing over 10,000 stands of small arms, six pieces of artillery, and a great many prisoners, many of them BAs. Gen. Buckner had opened the way for our escape, but instead of that he was ordered by our chief commanders, Floyd and Pillow, back to the reinforced prefab shelters we had left the day before.

"General Grant had been receiving reinforcements every day, until now his forces numbered over four to one of our worn-out, frozen soldiers. During the night of the 15th a council of war was held. The same was communicated to General Grant, who proposed surrender. General Forest was in the council and refused to surrender. He contended over a bullhorn that the way was open for us to march out and he marched his command, hovering close to the ground in their choppers, all along our lines of works. This was the first intimation we had that we were prisoners of war. So we had nothing to do but stand around our fires and talk of our experiences and narrow escapes during the four days of carnage."

--Letter sent by Milton Asbury Ryan, Captain, of Co. G, 8th MS Regiment (Tolson Guard), CSA, from prison on 2065-06-16

"I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor"

--Guns and Roses

Prelude

The 21st century was the golden age of genetic engineering and, until the Second Civil War, a golden age for human beings. Europe led the innovation at first, but the lobbyists for the biotech firms in the United States managed to get the Supreme Court to declare biotech law to be a state, rather than a federal, matter. Some states were very restrictive on biotechnology, while others welcomed it. Even in restricted states many biotech firms managed to keep themselves legal by restricting themselves to animal and plant DNA, avoiding human genes entirely.

The first intelligent, bioengineered animal was developed in Texas in 2021, a talking dog by the name of "Rover", to the protest of religous groups. In the years that follow, different states took different stances on the status of intelligent animals, from treating them no different than under pre-2021 law to near-citizen status (tho no animal had the right to vote in any state), to the complicated rules and regulations of Maine which differentiated between bioengineered animals based on IQ, genetic profile, and whether the BA walked upright or not.

Generally, the Southern states treated BAs (Bioengineered Animals, though more colorful expansions of the acronym were common at the time) as simply that: Animals. The South has used BAs to re-build the South along idealized, agrarian (but high-tech) lines, and the concept of the Southern Gentleman has come back into vogue. This process would have had more detractors if it had not happened so slowly, and if Southern racism had not virtually disappeared during the process. In the New South, the Southern Gentleman plantation-owner, listing over 100 BA workers on his tax forms every year, was as likely to have black skin as white.

The laws of the North were varied. They generally gave BAs more autonomy and rights, but not as much as a full citizen, since doing so might require the federal government to get involved. However, this increasingly led to friction between the North and South, and more and more people were lobbying for BAs to be treated somewhat like Resident Aliens, with nearly all the rights of a human citizen excepting only the right to vote.

This issue split the Democratic party along geographic lines, and caused the Religious Right to leave the Republican party when a pro-BA rights candidate, Joseph Lincoln, a distant relative of Abraham Lincoln, took the party nomination. His election to President set the stage for the South to rise -- and fall -- again.

Timeline

November 2060 - Joseph Lincoln is elected president by a narrow margin.

December 2060 - South Carolina, declaring the actions of the United States during and after the Civil War to be illegal and invalid, secedes from the Union. It is followed almost immediately by Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina and Texas: all are states heavily dependant on "work animals" for their economy. A new Confederate States of America is formed with Joseph Davis (no relation to Jefferson Davis of the original CSA), a West Point graduate and former U.S. Army officer, as President.

January 2060 - As Internet discussion on the topic of the legality of the new CSA rages, several states join the New Confederacy, often for their own, ideosyncratic reasons: New Mexico, Arizona, Hawaii, Nevada, Utah and Southern California. (The state of California splits during arguments about whether or not to join the Confederancy.) The CSA now has 17 states, while the US retains 33 states, not counting North California, which becomes part of Oregon by the end of the month.

March 2061 - Lincoln is sworn in as President of the United States of America.

April 12, 2061 - At 4:30 a.m. Confederates under Gen. Pierre Beauregard open fire with three attack helicopters upon Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina, with the battle cry: "We saved our Confederate money!" The Second Civil War begins.

April 15, 2061 - US Congress re-activates the draft.

April 16, 2061 - Robert R. Lee, son of a hero of the anti-terrorist brigades of the early 21st century, and a 25-year distinguished veteran of the United States Army and former Superintendent of West Point, is offered command of the Union Army. Lee declines.

April 19, 2061 - President Lincoln issues a Proclamation of Blockade against Southern ports and Southern airspace. For the duration of the war the blockade limits the ability of the rural South to stay well supplied in its war against the industrialized North and its robot factories, though air traffic via "neutral" Mexico gives some relief.

April 20, 2061 - Robert R. Lee resigns his commission in the United States Army. "I cannot raise my hand against my birthplace, my home, my children." Lee then goes to Richmond, Virginia, is offered command of the military forces of Virginia, and accepts.

Nov 1, 2061 - President Lincoln appoints John McClellan as general-in-chief of all Union forces after the resignation of the aged Winford Scott. Lincoln tells McClellan, "...the supreme command of the Army will entail a vast labor upon you." McClellan responds, "I can do it all."

Feb 6, 2062 - Victory for Gen. Ulysses L. Grant in Tennessee, capturing Fort Henry, and ten days later Fort Donelson. Grant earns the nickname "Really Unconditional Surrender" Grant.

March 2062 - The Peninsular Campaign begins as McClellan's Army of the Potomac advances from Washington down the Potomac River and the Chesapeake Bay to the peninsular south of the Confederate Capital of Richmond, Virginia then begins an advance toward Richmond.

President Lincoln temporarily relieves McClellan as general-in-chief and takes direct command of the Union Armies.

April 24, 2062 - 17 Union ships under the command of Flag Officer David Farragut move up the Mississippi River then take New Orleans, the South's greatest seaport. Later in the war, sailing through a Rebel mine field Farragut repeats the famous phrase: "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"

June 1, 2062 - Gen. Robert R. Lee assumes command, replacing the wounded Johnston. Lee then renames his force the Army of Northern Virginia. McClellan is not impressed, saying Lee is "likely to be timid and irresolute in action."

July 11, 2062 - After four months as his own general-in-chief, President Lincoln hands over the task to Gen. Henry K. Halleck.

Sept 17, 2062 - The bloodiest day in U.S. military history as Gen. Robert R. Lee and the Confederate Armies are stopped at Antietam in Maryland by McClellan and numerically superior Union forces. By nightfall 260,000 men are dead, wounded, or missing. At least twice that many BAs on both sides are killed. Lee then withdraws to Virginia.

Sept 22, 2062 - Preliminary BA Citizenship Proclamation granting BAs near-citizen status (sparing only voting rights) issued by President Lincoln.

Nov 7, 2062 - The president replaces McClellan with Gen. Ambrose E. Burnside as the new Commander of the Army of the Potomac. Lincoln had grown impatient with McClellan's slowness to follow up on the success at Antietam, even telling him, "If you don't want to use the army, I should like to borrow it for a while."

Jan 1, 2063 - President Lincoln issues the final BA Citizenship Proclamation "freeing" all BAs in territories held by Confederates and emphasizes the enlisting of BA soldiers in the Union Army.

In a stunning counter-move, declaring "this war is not about BAs, it is about states rights", President Davis of the CSA declares that any BA that serves a five-year stint in the Confederate military forces without a dishonorable discharge will get full citizenship in the CSA, including voting rights. "But the cowards who do not fight will remain merely animals."

Jan 25, 2063 - The president appoints Gen. Joseph Hooker as Commander of the Army of the Potomac, replacing Burnside.

Jan 29, 2063 Gen. Grant is placed in command of the Army of the West, with orders to capture Vicksburg.

May 1-4, 2063 The Union Army under Gen. Hooker is decisively defeated by Lee's much smaller forces at the Battle of Chancellorsville in Virginia as a result of Lee's brilliant and daring tactics and the bravery of the Fighting Hounds, a mostly-canine all-BA division of fighter pilots. Hooker retreats.

June 3, 2063 - Gen. Lee launches his second invasion of the North, heading into Pennsylvania in a campaign that will soon lead to Gettysburg.

June 28, 2063 - President Lincoln appoints Gen. George A. Meade as commander of the Army of the Potomac, replacing Hooker. Meade is the 5th man to command the Army in less than a year.

July 1-3, 2063 - The tide of war turns against the South as the Confederates are defeated at the Second Battle of Gettysburg in Pennsylvania, when the North reveals several new kinds of BA "shock troopers" bioengineered from insects and scorpions. Conferade soldiers call the new BA troopers "buzzers" after the noise they make.

July 4, 2063 - The tide turns further against the Rebels as "buzzer" troops inflict nearly 90% casulties on Confederate troops in the West.

July 13-16, 2063 - Antidraft riots in New York City include arson and the murder of BAs by poor humans.

July 18, 2063 - BA troopers of the 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment under Col. Robert G. Shaw assault fortified Rebels at Fort Wagner, South Carolina. Col. Shaw and half of the 600 men in the regiment are killed.

Aug 10, 2063 - The US President meets with BA-rights lobbyist Richard Douglass who pushes for full equality for Union BAs, but Lincoln refuses to allow them the vote. "Unlike the CSA, ours do not have to fight. So they do not have to vote."

May 4, 2064 - The beginning of a massive, coordinated campaign involving all the Union Armies.

July 20, 2064 - At Atlanta, Sherman's forces battle the Rebels now under the command of Gen. John F. Hood.

Aug 29, 2064 - Democrats nominate George T. McClellan for president to run against Republican incumbent Joseph Lincoln.

Sept 2, 2064 - Atlanta is captured by Sherman's Army. "Atlanta is ours, and fairly won," Sherman tells Lincoln via cell phone. The victory greatly helps President Lincoln's bid for re-election.

Oct 19, 2064 - A decisive Union victory by Air Cavalry Gen. John Sheridan in the Shenandoah Valley over Jubal Early's troops.

Nov 8, 2064 - Lincoln is re-elected president, defeating Democrat George B. McClellan. Lincoln carries all but three states with 55 percent of the popular vote. "I earnestly believe that the consequences of this day's work will be to the lasting advantage, if not the very salvation, of the country," Lincoln tells supporters.

Nov 15, 2064 - After destroying Atlanta's warehouses and airport facilities, Sherman begins a march to the sea. President Lincoln on advice from Grant approved the idea. "I can make Georgia howl!" Sherman boasts.

Dec 15/16, 2064 - Hood's Rebel Army of 230,000 is crushed at Nashville by Federal forces, including "buzzer" troops under Gen. George H. Thomas. The Confederate Army of Tennessee ceases as an effective fighting force, though several units take to the bushes.

Dec 21, 2064 - Sherman reaches Savannah in Georgia leaving behind a 300 mile long path of destruction 60 miles wide all the way from Atlanta. Sherman then phones Lincoln, offering him Savannah as a Christmas present.

Feb 3, 2065 - A peace conference occurs as President Lincoln meets with Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens at Hampton Roads in Virginia, but the meeting ends in failure - the war will continue.

March 4, 2065 - Inauguration ceremonies for President Lincoln in Washington. Echoing the words of his relative: "With malice toward none; with charity for all...let us strive on to finish the work we are in...to do all which may achieve and cherish a just, and a lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations."

March 25, 2065 - The last offensive for Lee's Army of Northern Virginia begins with an attack on the center of Grant's forces at Petersburg. Four hours later the attack is broken.

April 2, 2065 - Grant's forces begin a general advance and break through Lee's lines at Petersburg. Confederate Gen. Ambrose Hill is killed. Lee evacuates Petersburg. The Confederate Capital, Richmond, is evacuated. Fires and looting break out. The next day, Union troops enter and raise the Stars and Stripes.

April 9, 2065 - Gen. Robert E. Lee, in a surprising move, orders all Confederate forces disbanded, and to fight a wholesale guerilla war against the North. "After four years of arduous service marked by unsurpassed courage and fortitude the Army of Northern Virginia will not at this time be compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources," Lee tells his troops. "Our fighting spirit lives on."

General Lee also declares all BA troopers to be full citizens of the Confederacy. "With your aid, victory is in our grasp. We made you tougher and stronger than mortal men. The United States will have another Veitnam on their hands, and this time the toll will be even greater."

The Premise

"Freedom implies responsiblity." PCs generally take the part of Confederate BA Troopers. Part man, part animal, fighting a difficult and dirty geurilla war, they have every reason to dodge responsibility for their actions: Instinct, their status as second-class citizens, the horrors of war, the fact they were, in a sense, made rather than born. Vietnam meets the First Civil War, and terrible, terrible things are going on out there. Are you willing to take responsibilty for what you do as a free individual? The idea here is to illuminate humanity through an inhuman, but sympathetic, character.

Mechanics

Here is where I'm stuck. I'm thinking something like the Sorcerer Humanity mechanic, where Humanity is defined as the ability to take responsibility for one's actions, no matter how terrible. But there needs to be definite benefits to both gaining and losing Humanity, so there is a constant struggle going on, as the Confederate BA troopers play Viet-Cong on American soil. Any suggestions? I want to reinforce my Premise, so I want some sort of mechanic that the more responsibility the character shows, the more free they are to act -- low humanity characters tend to act in bestial ways. (I'm thinking something like the Frenzy system in Vampire, but less strict and more varied in outcome.)

Also, I'm aiming for a touch of dark humor and irony.

Comments? Questions? Rude remarks?

A simple option of low humanity is to give it out and out combat bonuses such as increased initiative/damage.  As some of our recent school and psycho shootings in the last few years have shown, its the calm, detached, unhinged individuals who keep their cool and efficiency while commiting brutal acts.

Another option may be a level of fear/antipathy on the part of the general populace or a reputation by a group of soldiers("the 92nd division, known as the Dollmakers, leaves civilians looking like Raggedy Anns, before being stitched together..."), which either provides bonuses/penalties to interaction with the populace or morale on the part of the enemy.  "We captured Sosa's platoon, the only clean guys of the bunch.  They had been helping the flood victims, so they were worn out when we got to them.  We let them live, but Carlton "the dentist", he was injured.  They didn't like him either, so we took him to our "dental ward" and let him have his own medicine"

You may wish to include personality traits as loyalty, antipathy, racism, or what have you.  Sounds great.  I'm a flavor person too :)

Chris

I'd probably change the names. The SODB window is shut locked and shuttered with those names. I'd suggest original names which don't evoke the original Civil War, and  dumping the battlecry of the Confederates. As it is just a bit silly, while you want to have humor, I'm not sure if that's the kind of humor that the rest of the setting serves.

It is an interesting idea, I like the fact that the South is rewarding those who serve with certian rights.


What it needs is Mecha! ( *JOKE*--It has a few similarities to my own Wildbreed setting for BESM--which uses Mecha, and essentially the genetically engineered animals rebelling for their freedom against oppressive humanity as the backdrop.)

Personally, I think it would be much more powerful and less "dodgy" to just set it during the the actual civil war and not try to use Clones as a proxy for slavery.  It would have to be done with a level of sensitivity and not patronizing...but controversy gets attention.

As far as sensitivity and patronizing goes...the game as currently described will need those things too because the parallel is so obvious that any "insults" done to the BA will simply be carried over by those who look for such things anyway.

I'm going to ask first off is what would you say this game's Premise is?  Because I think nailing down your Premis can help decide on the mechanics.   I agree about making less parallel between historical names, at least so many parallels.  The idea itself however was very interesting and with that cloned kitty out there, relevant once more.

I think the premise is something along the lines of...

"Is it possible to retain, or, indeed, define our humanity while it is being challenged by, and is the cause of, the conflict around us?"

Though that's a little longwinded.

What you've defined is a premise, but I don't think it's the one your exploring. Unless, of course, a 'Human' was someone who was responsible for all of their actions, which raises interesting questions about morality.

Drop the Civil War II: Now With Budget stuff. It'd be a lot more concise, and darker, as a game between opposed forces at different levels, so rough'n'ready rules mods for ACW, AWoI, Vietnam, and maybe Korea, if not the English Civil War, and Ron's favourite, the Thirty Years War.

I'm also in favor of dropping the too-close parallels to the 19th century Civil War.  If the point is to re-fight the Civil War (or, if you prefer, the War of Northern Aggression), then make that the game.  If it's to explore a premise about what it means to be human, then make that the game.

But making it the Civil War Redux, even down to the chronology (with the inauguration of the President moved back to a 19th century March from a 20th century January) smacks of revanchism.

And that's not cool.

Bill White

Quote from: Bill_White
But making it the Civil War Redux, even down to the chronology (with the inauguration of the President moved back to a 19th century March from a 20th century January) smacks of revanchism.

And that's not cool.

I agree that revanchism (or its cousin, revisionism) isn't cool. I don't agree that the idea I had smacks of it. I had always intended on revising the timeline, I just wanted to get the idea down on "paper" in a first draft ASAP. Instead of just saying "bad person, no biscuit", perhaps you could suggest some specific changes?

I could make a snarky comment about someone from Pennsylvania making such a claim, but since I don't know where you lived before then, and since that's not really the spirit of the Forge, I'm not going to go there. Instead, when I am less tired and grumpy I will post a reply to everyone who's posted so far, including Bill, explaining where I'm coming from and what I'm going for, since I obviously failed to make myself clear, for which I apologize. (I also apologize to Bill in advance for being grumpy.)

Thanks to everyone for the comments so far (including Bill's), they've been very helpful. After I clarify myself a bit, I'll be posting a revised version of the game in a seperate thread, with a system even. Right now, I'm off to bed.

Okay, between Bill's accusations of "revanchism", to Laurel's confusion about my Premise, to Valamir's "dodgy" comments, it seems that some people think the background I've put forth is bording on the offensive. If I'm reading the people in question wrong, please let me know.

Now, if I'm reading said people right, I appreciate everyone showing the politeness and restraint that is the hallmark of the Forge, but if you think I'm being offensive, I give everyone (including lurkers who are inclined to agree but haven't said anything) permission to say so. Hell, you can call me a racist redneck bastard if you want, I won't mind, tho it's not really true. ;-) But if you think I'm stepping over the line, do be a favor and say why. If you think I'm being offensive, the question is: To whom? African-Americans? Southerners? And if so, why? Just saying "this is naughty" doesn't help me very much. I've played under this background, and no one present seemed to think it was offensive or problematic, but maybe we had our heads up our collective asses...

Frankly, I don't think that idea of the South rising again is more offensive than the idea of playing a disgusting, "horrid pig-bastard of a character" whose closest personal contact is a sex slave, which seems to be the sort of thing encouraged by Violence Future, but you don't see me pointing fingers in that thread, even if such a thing isn't to my taste. I posted my idea to the Forge because I thought the Forge members were mature enough to handle the issues involved, and to give me the benefit of the doubt regarding said issues.

Regardless, I'm going to digress into my life story a bit to explain where I'm coming from, and to clarify why I think this background supports my Premise.

* life story mode on *

I grew up in West Virginia. For those of you that have never lived there, West Virginia is one of the most bland places on earth, combining the worst elements of the North and South.

Think all the poverty of the rural South, but without the colorful or polite attitudes. Provincial without any redeeming aspects. All of the generic, middle class feel of the American Midwest, but with less variety and class. (As you may guess, I didn't enjoy living in West Virginia.)  People think "hillbillies" when they think West Viriginia, but they're wrong. Hillbillies are more common in Tennessee, and would at least be interesting. West Virginia is too bland to have any real hillbillies, at least not in the 20th century.

The most interesting thing about West Virginia is its Civil War history, where it split off from the main part of Virginia to join the North. Some people would have you believe this is because the people of West Virginia didn't believe in slavery. However, if you dig deeper, one realizes that it was't as noble as all that. The average poor West Virginian coal miner couldn't afford slaves. Said coal miners resented the rich landowners that ran Virginia, and had been looking for a way to get out from under their thumb for years. The American Civil War was their opportunity to assert their autonomy and to get the increased self-governance they had wanted for years. We're talking class struggle here, rich vs. poor. Race, sad to say, was an afterthought. Nearly all the Afro-Americans were in what is now modern-day Virginia, a state of affairs that holds to this day. West Virginia is much more "white" than even the most white-bread parts of the Midwest.

Regardless, West Virginia's interesting Civil War history sparked my interest in the American Civil war early on in my life, during junior high school.

Also, because of this interesting history, I have the distinction of being considered an outsider by virtually everyone in the United States. In the North or West, being from West Virginia makes you a Southerner. In the South, being from West Virginia makes you a Yankee. Similarly, in the South, I'm considered to have no accent to my speech at all -- I sound like a Yankee. In the North, I'm considered to have a drawl because I talk slower than someone from, say, New York City. (This should go a long way toward explaining why I find the idea that I'm some sort of Southern partisan is... odd.)

When I got older, my parents decided to send me to a small private high school in Pittsburgh, PA, since the schools in West Virginia are not exactly sterling examples of public education. Now, despite the steel mills having been largely shut down decades ago, Pittsurgh was and is a blue-collar industrialized city. There I got my first taste of the attitudes (and prejudices) of the Northeastern urban poor. (It's interesting to note that the blue-collar workers of Pittsburgh, in a case of parallell linguistic evolution, invented a "you plural" for English, "yunz", that is comparable to the more well-known slang "you plural" of the South, "y'all".)

I went to a small liberal arts college in the Midwest, the oldest college west of the Mississippi: Grinnell College, located in the tiny town of Grinnell, Iowa. It was there that I got my first taste of the attitudes (and prejudices) of the heart of the true American middle class, as well as the attitudes associated the prototypical Midwestern farm-folk, while crystalizing my dislike for racism, sexism, and homophobia. (Liberal arts colleges are good for the latter. I can't reccommend my alma mater enough sometimes.)

(Also, while I was going to school, my family moved to Califonia, then Texas, then Tennessee. I mention all of this to indicate why I don't really consider myself a Southerner or a Northerner, and to indicate I've had experiences with all sorts of U.S. regional situations, and why I might find the issues of regionalism somewhat fascinating.)

It was at Grinnell that I made friends with a woman from North Carolina who was a history buff, and very interested in the Civil War. She had even tried to do American Civil War re-enacting on the side of the North, but had given up in disgust when they wouldn't let her play the part of a soldier because she was a woman. As an example of the fact that the Civil War is not dead in the South, she introduced me to Southern Partisan magazine, a disturbing publication that is proud of "fighting over 120 years of Yankee oppression". Though both of us were disgusted and disturbed by the ultra-conservative aspect of the magazine, it was my first real exposure to the idea that for a lot of people, the Civil War was not entirely about slavery, an idea which I found new and interesting, compared to what I had encountered so far. Later on, I would meet more sympathetic Southerners than the writers and editors of Southern Partisan magazine who also held such complicated views, very different from what I had been taught  in West Virginia and Pennsylvania. I realized the Civil War is not as morally black-and-white as some people think.

(Admittedly, I cannot blame many educational institutions, particularly as the high school level and earlier, for painting the American Civil War so simply. Any sane person agrees that slavery, and the racism that was its underpinning, was (and still is, in the case of racism) unambiguously evil, and this is an important lesson to impart to our children. It's only once one is older and more mature can one recognize that slavery was not the only issue  raised by the American Civil War, and that while those who claim that "the Civil War was not  about slavery" aren't correct, they're entirely wrong, either. There were more issues to the Civil War than slavery, it's just slavery was the biggest and the poses the least moral difficulty for the modern historian: slavery was wrong, period. Even the ultra-conservative nutjobs of Southern Partisan magazine agree with me about that; take a look for yourself at http://www.southern-partisan.com...)

After college, I happened to get a job in Winston-Salem, NC. For those of you not aware, that's within Jesse Helm's congressional district. So, trust me, I have seen the worst of modern Southern politics: If there is someone who is my diametrical opposite, politically speaking, in nearly every way, it's Jesse Helms. I hate nearly everything Jesse Helms stands for.

However, remember the sympathetic Southerners I mentioned earlier? I made friends with one gentleman, let's call him Joe. Joe is a gay man, a liberal who did everything he could to, say, keep Jesse Helms out of office. He is also a polite, gentlemanly, and pleasant person, who isn't afraid to speak up against racism, sexism, and homophobia. Now, if one hadn't lived in the South and been aware that things in the modern South are more complicated than most people outside the region believe, one might expect Joe to be ashamed of his family's Confederate heritage. Not so. He is proud of the things his family did for the CSA during the American Civil War, and an outspoken advocate of state's rights.

Similarly, the head of my coven, a Wiccan priestess, not exactly a fan of Jesse Helm or his politics either, has family members who still have their Confederate money, and isn't afraid to identify herself as a Southerner.

These are only a couple examples of the sort of complicated, real people that exist in the South. (Such people exist everywhere, of course, but I find the interaction between condemnation of slavery and racism on one hand, and Southern pride on the other, to be very interesting.)

Hell, even Bono of U2, who isn't exactly a fan of Jesee Helm's politics, admits that Senator Helms is a pleasant, polite man to deal with.

The fact is, regardless of the way it may have been in the past, sympathy with the Confederacy and pride in one's Southern heritage, in the modern South, doesn't mean that one approves of slavery, and isn't neccessarily a symptom of revanchism or revisionism. And while I'll be the first to admit that the concept of the "Southern gentleman" has been used (and still is used, depending on the person) as a smokescreen for racism and sexism, this isn't always the case. The fact of the matter is, some people interpret being "courtly" or "gentlemanly" as showing respect to everyone, regardless of how you feel about them. When I moved to my current location, the Eastern Shore, I discovered racism and provincialism on a level equal to the worst parts of the rural South, and unlike the South, they were damned rude about it, too. While there are certainly things I don't miss about the South, I do miss the sense of politeness I found there, and a less "in your face" attitude.

* end life story mode *

As I said, the modern South is complicated, and I happen to find that interesting. Therefore, when I wanted to do a RPG with the Premise "Freedom implies responsibility", I immediately thought of the background my friend Kevin Treadway had made up for a game he'd ran. (Kevin was also a Civil War buff, and he isn't exactly a "good ol' boy", tho he had grown up in North Carolina.)

Why did I think of this background? Because when I say "freedom implies responsibily", what I'm interested in exploring is a situation where the characters are stuggling to uphold a system of ethics in a difficult situation. That is, one is not free until one spends time thinking and acting accoring to one's ethics, rather than relying on knee-jerk reactions, which are as much a prison and anything made of stone and iron. Said "difficult situation" had to invoke all of the ethical issues I was interested in and make it difficult not to comprimise for the sake of pragmatism, including but not limited to:

* racism
* sexism
* jingoism
* homophobia (heterosexism)
* animal rights (including the issue of what it means to be human)
* autonomy and self-determination (both individually and in government)
* the interface between ethics and politics
* scientific ethics (progress and technology)
* what it means to be a man-created intelligence (what happens when we "play God")
* honor (especially in the face of war)
* basic respect for others ("gentility")
* the ethics of war (Geneva accords)
* the way civil war tears up familys (the oft-quoted "brother vs. bother" aspect of things)

Yes, these are contraversial, hot-button issues, and I'm aware of this, and sensitive to this. But that's what makes them interesting. I couldn't think of a background that did a better job of forcing them all out in the open in one big package. The fact that it also allows exploration of the complexities of the modern South is just an added bonus.

Hey,

Excellent essay - and I think it's an essay, not a rant.

If I'm not mistaken, at least some of the comments from other posters so far are not concerned about the "appropriateness" of the topics you've raised, as topics, but rather about the SF/futuristic context. These comments imply, to me, that the posters would be interested in seeing the issues addressed in an RPG without any "softening" or "surrealizing" via the future setting.

Or maybe I'm misreading those posts. If so, then I pose the question myself: why not set the game itself, with all the elements you have described, during the Civil War itself? This isn't a recommendation that you do so (or not do so, or whatever). It strikes me personally as having more power and interest, though.

Best,
Ron

Okay, now I'm going to try to respond to everybody in turn.

Quote from: BankueiA simple option of low humanity is to give it out and out combat bonuses such as increased initiative/damage.  As some of our recent school and psycho shootings in the last few years have shown, its the calm, detached, unhinged individuals who keep their cool and efficiency while commiting brutal acts.

An excellent idea. Any idea as to the advantages of a high Humanity? (Actually, I'm considering re-naming it "Responsibility")

QuoteAnother option may be a level of fear/antipathy on the part of the general populace or a reputation by a group of soldiers("the 92nd division, known as the Dollmakers, leaves civilians looking like Raggedy Anns, before being stitched together..."), which either provides bonuses/penalties to interaction with the populace or morale on the part of the enemy.  "We captured Sosa's platoon, the only clean guys of the bunch.  They had been helping the flood victims, so they were worn out when we got to them.  We let them live, but Carlton "the dentist", he was injured.  They didn't like him either, so we took him to our "dental ward" and let him have his own medicine"

Ooooh, I really like that idea...

QuoteYou may wish to include personality traits as loyalty, antipathy, racism, or what have you.  Sounds great.  I'm a flavor person too :)
Chris

Definately. I want this game to be filled with flavor. Part of the goal is while I want to have a definite Premise, not unike Vampire I want a background broad enough to support other types of games, with "crunchy bits" for players to sink their teeth into, in contrast to be designs so far.

Quote from: Sidhain
I'd probably change the names. The SODB window is shut locked and shuttered with those names. I'd suggest original names which don't evoke the original Civil War, and dumping the battlecry of the Confederates. As it is just a bit silly, while you want to have humor, I'm not sure if that's the kind of humor that the rest of the setting serves.

I agree, actually. The use of the names was Kevin's idea, originally. The original version was the future of an alternate history where the original Civil War didn't happen, an idea I dislike.

QuoteIt is an interesting idea, I like the fact that the South is rewarding those who serve with certian rights.

I'm glad someone picked up on that. The idea was to highlight some of the things I've encountered in the modern South by making the situation more morally grey than in the orginal Civil War.

QuoteWhat it needs is Mecha! ( *JOKE*--It has a few similarities to my own Wildbreed setting for BESM--which uses Mecha, and essentially the genetically engineered animals rebelling for their freedom against oppressive humanity as the backdrop.)

Do you have a link for that? I thought of running a game like that in Mekton, long before BESM came out.

Quote from: ValamirPersonally, I think it would be much more powerful and less "dodgy" to just set it during the the actual civil war and not try to use Clones as a proxy for slavery. It would have to be done with a level of sensitivity and not patronizing...but controversy gets attention.

I wanted to include issues of animal rights, technological ethics, and modern warfare ethics (Geneva accords) that one can't fit into the original Civil War. Also, as I said above, I wanted to make the issue of supporting the South more morally grey than it was in the original Civil War.

QuoteAs far as sensitivity and patronizing goes...the game as currently described will need those things too because the parallel is so obvious that any "insults" done to the BA will simply be carried over by those who look for such things anyway.

I agree, this is something I will work on in the next draft, which I'll post on a seperate thread.

Quote from: LaurelI'm going to ask first off is what would you say this game's Premise is? Because I think nailing down your Premis can help decide on the mechanics. I agree about making less parallel between historical names, at least so many parallels. The idea itself however was very interesting and with that cloned kitty out there, relevant once more.

I think this has been answered in more than one post at this point. ;-) And, yes, with the cloned cat and so I wanted some more modern ethical situations to be involved.

As for the parellelism, I will be cutting down on those in the next draft, which was always my intent.

Quote from: erithromycinDrop the Civil War II: Now With Budget stuff. It'd be a lot more concise, and darker, as a game between opposed forces at different levels, so rough'n'ready rules mods for ACW, AWoI, Vietnam, and maybe Korea, if not the English Civil War, and Ron's favourite, the Thirty Years War.

I think I've made it clear why I went the way I did. Also, frankly, aside from Vietnam, most of those wars don't interest me one whit. That's purely a personal preference, of course.

I do think the system as I'm currently concieving of it could be used for what you're talking about, i.e. ignore the background and just use the system. In fact, once I post my second draft, if you want to just ignore the Civil War stuff as being not to your taste, and use the system to run (say) a Vietnam game, I'd love to know how it turns out.

As for the rest of your post, I think you're on the same wavelenth as me with regards to the premise.

Quote from: Bill_WhiteI'm also in favor of dropping the too-close parallels to the 19th century Civil War. If the point is to re-fight the Civil War (or, if you prefer, the War of Northern Aggression), then make that the game. If it's to explore a premise about what it means to be human, then make that the game.

The point is not the re-fight the Civil War, but at least partially to explore the complexities of the post-Civil War modern South, and the affect the Civil War had on the South. See my post above.

I'm not interested in re-fighting the Civil War. I had ample opportunities to join a re-enactment group while I lived in North Carolina, and though the side I would have preferred to "fight" on (the North) certainly needed more people, ultimately I wasn't interested.

QuoteBut making it the Civil War Redux, even down to the chronology (with the inauguration of the President moved back to a 19th century March from a 20th century January) smacks of revanchism.

I think I covered this in my previous post.

BTW, Bill, welcome to the Forge. I notice this is your second post on the Forge ever. ;-)

Quote from: Ron EdwardsHey,

Excellent essay - and I think it's an essay, not a rant.

Thank you. That was my intent.

QuoteIf I'm not mistaken, at least some of the comments from other posters so far are not concerned about the "appropriateness" of the topics you've raised, as topics, but rather about the SF/futuristic context. These comments imply, to me, that the posters would be interested in seeing the issues addressed in an RPG without any "softening" or "surrealizing" via the future setting.

Well, I wasn't trying to soften it so much as import in some issues -- animal rights and the ethics of technological growth and biotechnology -- that I was interested in, as well as touch on some of the complexities of the modern South that evolved from the original Civil War.

QuoteOr maybe I'm misreading those posts. If so, then I pose the question myself: why not set the game itself, with all the elements you have described, during the Civil War itself? This isn't a recommendation that you do so (or not do so, or whatever). It strikes me personally as having more power and interest, though.

Now, since you're the second person to state that they think the original Civil War is more interesting, I'll note that I considered an alternate history Civil War as a setting, but discarded only for the extremely subjective reason I am tired of alternate history RPGs (Deadlands, anyone?) and wanted to enage in some old-fashioned sci-fi thought experimentation. And I discarded the standard Civil War setting for the reasons I mention above.

I also admit that I tend to get overly obsessive about historical minutae in historical settings, losing track of the point, and this is the other (albiet quite personal) reason I avoided the original Civil War as a setting.

As it is, if the system I'm thinking of works for my preferred background, considering the comments from you and others, I'm probably going to also create a "generic" version of the system for exploring the issue of ethics during wartime, using the war of your choice, from the original Civil War to Vietnam to the Afghan confict.

Really the only difference between the "generic" system and the system for my preferred background would be the rules that differentiate between different BAs, which I'm pretty much putting in as attractive "crunchy bits" rather than substantive system fodder anyway. (I've been reading Robin Law's Robin's Laws recently and I like the idea of a system that's not quite as focused as what we usually do here on the Forge, but can be if handled right.)

Just to clarify my previous comment, I didn't find anything offensive at all in the subject matter.  I was responding to what I perceived as a "sanitization" of the issues of the civil war by trying to confront the issues without actually confronting the issues (hense my dodgy comment).

Your later explanation clarified things a good bit about what your goals are so I'll revise my recommendation somewhat.  Instead of keeping the civil war and ditching the futurerama, I'd now say to ditch the civil war parallel altogether.

I'd go for something closer to the US as portrayed in The Handmaiden's Tale or Clockwork Orange or "Soylent Green is People".  There are plenty of real life issues that could far more reasonably lead to the type of conflicts you want to explore without refighting the civil war.  Heck it wasn't that long ago that people were talking about "race war" as if it were a impending likelyhood.  In fact, given what you said in you last essay, I'd say the civil war aspect actually detracts from you goals because it will focus everyones attention on finding civil war parallels rather than exploring the issues.

my $.02

Quote from: ValamirJust to clarify my previous comment, I didn't find anything offensive at all in the subject matter.  I was responding to what I perceived as a "sanitization" of the issues of the civil war by trying to confront the issues without actually confronting the issues (hense my dodgy comment).

Glad to hear it. I think Bill's comments kind of set me off, and then I re-read everyone else's comments in that light.

QuoteYour later explanation clarified things a good bit about what your goals are so I'll revise my recommendation somewhat.  Instead of keeping the civil war and ditching the futurerama, I'd now say to ditch the civil war parallel altogether.

I'd go for something closer to the US as portrayed in The Handmaiden's Tale or Clockwork Orange or "Soylent Green is People".  There are plenty of real life issues that could far more reasonably lead to the type of conflicts you want to explore without refighting the civil war.  Heck it wasn't that long ago that people were talking about "race war" as if it were a impending likelyhood.  In fact, given what you said in you last essay, I'd say the civil war aspect actually detracts from you goals because it will focus everyones attention on finding civil war parallels rather than exploring the issues.

Interesting. I will definitely consider this. At the very least, I may write something like that up as an alternate background. I hope to post my revised version of the game, with less obvious paralells (tho keeping the Second Civil War concept), with a system, sometime tonight.

I must admit part of my reasons for keeping the Second Civil War thing is entirely aestetic: I really, really like the image of anthroporphic animals in modern fatigues with archaic, civil-war trappings (like a Calvary cap or a saber), fighting with futuristic weapons.

Quote
Do you have a link for that? I thought of running a game like that in Mekton, long before BESM came out.

Most of what I have deals with the mechanics and backdrop of the world and first few "adventures". I don't tend to overly detail a setting until I have players to play it, and unfortunatly I don't have any interested at the moment  so it's sitting idle.

You'll notice it's written up more "to be run by Sidhain" rather than "to be presented to others" so pardon that.

I didn't include some of my suppositions (like why the Breed use lasers and why humans do not--its a matter of manufacturing resources, lasers require less expendable resources in the setting--ie they need powercells which are rechargeable, kinetic weapons require ammunition)

So if you have any questions just ask.


Here it is in PDF (because I don't have it formatted to show as a webpage) if you prefer e-mail me and I can e-mail it as a Word Doc/PDF directly.

http://www.freewebz.com/tome/Wildbreed.pdf