Physical Product requireing online access?

[daMoose_Neo]

Final Twilight's getting a little kick in the butt with the release of Divergence, a set of rules for creating your own cards for use with the core Final Twilight game. Got a good chunk of it ready, just pulling all of the pieces together for print when an idea struck me: forget the "book".
Divergence comes in two parts: The rulebook and the blank cards. The blank cards are more or less supplies. Generate interest in that and can drive sales of the blank cards and custom prints. Through Key20, I have a few retail stores carrying the normal Twilight decks, but get more of my sales at cons or face-to-face.
From a retail aspect, it could be dangerous, but from my own venues its not too bad, as just about everyone who buys from me has regular internet access. The rules, at the very least the core rules, would be made available as PDF and HTML, free from the site. Supplements, additions, new mechanics and features etc. would be a minor fee through the likes of RPGNow.

What would be the pros and cons of such a structure, offering a "retail" product that required online access to use? I have some ideas, but I want to bounce it off a few more experianced pros around here.

[Veritas Games]

WotC is the only one I know who gets away with this.  They finally have a new product out with a CD ROM of the rules but generally they don't have a rulebook with their MTG products.  Lots of games have starter rulebooks and have full rules online.  That's a hazard of the CCG industry, it seems.

I think, in general, retailers will hate this about a niche market game.  Hate it.  Magic gets away with it because of its massive market penetration, but if I were a retailer with a niche market game and it came with no rules I wouldn't sell the product.

Personally, I think NOBODY will buy blank cards for your game.  Why would they?  Now, if you could create microperforated card blanks with pre-printed coated backs and uncoated faces people might buy those.  Otherwise, they are going to develop their cards on their printers, print them out on paper or photopaper, and stick them in a card sleeve, with or without another game card as backing.

If you had the microperforated card blanks and a do-it-yourself engine like Greg Porter has, I think that could work well for you.

[daMoose_Neo]

If you had the microperforated card blanks and a do-it-yourself engine like Greg Porter has, I think that could work well for you.

Except that totally defeats the purpose of Divergence.
Were it a standalone 'engine', yes, that would be the road to take and Greg's got a good system set up. Twilight, however, is already in print and is printed on more of a standard stock, stock that normal, home based inkjet printers don't deal well with anyway. Divergence cards are meant to be played with Twilight cards, sleeves or no.

[Veritas Games]

Well, I don't know what the purpose of divergence is, but if your game is a niche market game, then blank cards that can't be easily printed on will be a niche, niche market product.

I think you'd do better by releasing actual print products, or going Greg Porter's route.  Or, if you feel you have the market, do POD custom-designed cards for individual buyers.  Companion Games did short run custom cards that put the onus of selling on the people who came up with them.

Here's how it works.  Let's say a press sheet at your printers holds like 55 cards.  You price the cost for 1000 sheets.  You sell a "slot" on the press sheet to 55 people.  They get 1000 copies of their card to do with what they will -- trade for other custom cards, sell, etc.  If you need to, you can use some of those 55 slots yourself for your own promos or a small set of boosters, effectively defraying the cost of the print run.

If you can pull off selling blank cards that you can't put through a printer, more power to you.  I just think very few people will buy them.  The only blank cards I've seen for a CCG were for Illuminati New World Order, and the ones I saw are still on the shelf at the local game store, unsold, unless I'm mistaken.

[daMoose_Neo]

Quick, general outline of Divergence then:
A point based card design supplement to Final Twilight. The cards would be usable as a deck by themselves or included with cards produced by me.
Two, probable retail components would be:
- Rulesbook (which is what is in debate), similar to an RPG sourcebook including the rules to Twilight, the guidelines for designing your own cards and available options. Would be followed up with supplemental material as new expansions are released, new mechanics, changes in the game-world, etc.
- Decks and/or packets of blank face cards, same/similar enough stock to officially released cards that they would be playable with those cards, without needing to sleave them.

Release schedule has the rules slated for a September release, online first at the very least followed up by a print release in January (Current plan before posing question), along with the new decks for Entropy introducing a new storyline and two new character decks.
Part of that, which I'll be laying out more come October, is what I want to be a retail level event: Rite of Passage, concerning a pair of Warrior characters from the stories. Like Legend of the Five Rings, who hold tournaments to determine major plot events, Rite of Passage will ultimately concern which path these two characters take, each of whom have several. Players will be able to generate their own versions of these two characters under a couple of restrictions for the event (IE One faction MUST be Warrior, 1/2 of the played deck must be original cards), with a showdown between the major players at GenCon Indy '06, us tossing out some 4 day passes to the victors. Starting it in January gives a few months to let the stores play it out as they'd like without a rush, requiring something like a May check-in with local winners. Winner character types (IE A Corrupt Warrior, a Warrior who shuns magic) will be written into the final novel, determining which direction the characters head.

Finally, the other components revolve around the website:
- A forum/database of user created cards for the free viewing of anyone who wants to
- Gallaries of artwork, lisenced pieces from several different artists.
- The ability to order custom prints of their designs, with artwork and card face just as though it came right from us. I worked out an arrangement with Ken at RapidPOD, but he's unsure of his technology at the time. Meanwhile, I have a printer down in Texas who can do it, but it'll cost more :S Folks who want to take advantage of it, however, will be more than welcome to.

If you look at the market right now, Magic dominates sales because its more a supply than a game. Stores sell through cards for booster drafts, hand them out as prizes, etc. The general idea is to produce something similar with these blanks: a supply, not neccesarily a game. RoP is just one such event I'd like to host, with retailer assistance. Retailers would also be encouraged to run their own small events, also driving the sale of the blanks.

[Veritas Games]

If you look at the market right now, Magic dominates sales because its more a supply than a game. Stores sell through cards for booster drafts, hand them out as prizes, etc. The general idea is to produce something similar with these blanks: a supply, not neccesarily a game. RoP is just one such event I'd like to host, with retailer assistance. Retailers would also be encouraged to run their own small events, also driving the sale of the blanks.

Since about 90% of all serious CCG players use sleeves on any game cards they regularly play with, I'm still not seeing at all what the advantage of blank cards you can't print on are going to be.  If there's an advantage it's not a huge one, and I think most people unless they are just tossing you a few bucks on principle, will just print stuff out on cardstock or print stuff out on plain paper and back it with a game card, putting them in sleeves.

Maybe you'll prove me wrong.  If so, good for you.  My ego's not tied up in it.  It just seems like an incredibly unsound idea for a niche market game to try to sell blank cards you can't readily print on.  I think you'd sell more if they were microperforated card blanks with pre-printed backs.

If you get substantial retailer orders on this you better make darned sure that retailers know exactly what they are getting.  Call them "Final Twilight Card Blanks" or something.

Re: the overall idea -- it's interesting, but do you have the marketing network to really pull this off on any appreciable level?  Sounds like a good idea.  It seems like you'd do much better with POD than with card blanks.

[Veritas Games]

BTW -- do you really want to run major tournaments where people use handwritten blank cards covered with somebody's illegible scrawl?  I would hate it.  Something to think about if you are planning on letting people write on blank cards.

[daMoose_Neo]

Actually, Lee, I'm pretty sure of what I have. Which is why I think I can pull this off. I'm currently just wondering how exactly, and this with the rulebook is a proposed method. Doing so means less expense for myself in having to print up however many books, and it also means I can turn the rules out to anyone for the asking, spreading the game while not devaluing someone who had to pay for a copy of the guidelines. At this time, this is what is at question, not the blank cards.
As for the other points, no, I do not have a massive marketing engine, but come the winter releases I will have a budget to play with: a Game Trade ad, GameBuyer ad & editorials come January, some material sent to retailers via Key20 and Alliance, and some online advertising. That would be more than enough to satisfy my goals. If, in the end, I got a half a dozen stores to participate, I'm happy. The material is engaging enough, players like the idea of being able to create their own material (most of my local players are already, even without playtest copies of the rules), and if the rules are free thats even more advertising, just whoring out the files online. Run what I can, when I can, after that for new material.
As for the tournament event, I also don't anticipate a huge turn-out for that. My local events garner about a half a dozen to a dozen players at best, I can get two to three stores in Michigan to run with this, while I have players in Indianapolis I could count on to get involved. My Alliance customers are few, but I know I have players who've picked up the game through them as well and would bite on the concept.
With what I *know* beyond a reasonable doubt, I can do this.

As to how it could be done better, yes, perforated sheets would be good. The quality of stock neccesary, however, would jam most printers. The guys over at Protoparts are working on such a creature actually, but it only works for select printers. As well, at the time, it is easier and cheaper for me to obtain blank cards than it would be to do that, however. For those folks who do want to print them off the PC, great. Can add a few other ways as well: Avery label paper comes at about 2.5x3.25 last I checked, which is almost a perfect fit for a CCG card face. Same final finish, established template, easy access. Or, if you're just sitting around BS'ing and cook up a card you can pen it right then and there.
For the time being, this process for the cards works. Now lets talk about getting those rules into folks hands.
(BTW, the actual product listing for the cards is NEOFTD001, Final Twilight - Divergence Card Blanks, so no confusion)

[btrc]

Since I've been invoked a few times, let me bring up a few numbers. I've got two main 'physical products requiring online access'. One is the F*ck This! card game. Using only RPGnow as a guide, looks like I've sold 122 pdf copies. Between Hyperbooks and DTRPG, you can probably make that 250 copies (e23 is stodgy and won't carry it). How well it would sell in stores is anyone's guess due to the subject matter, but I sold 30 pre-printed copies at GenCon last year and would have sold more if I'd had them. This is for a cheezy black and white product that you print on business card pre-perfed sheets. Unfortunately, they don't make these in glossy versions that can handle high-res home printing (or not that are affordable for something you have to resell), so your graphic potential may be limited when using that avenue.

On the other hand, Infinite Armies requires that you actually cut out the cards and sleeve them in order to play the game, though I suppose you could just print them on cardstock. iA is made possible by the secondary market in things like sleeves, and the fact that most card players have some game or component that they have a surplus of cards for (like M:tG mana). Furthermore, it is assumed an iA player will be doing this not just once, but multiple times as they customize their deck. Instead of spending time and money trading and buying cards, you're spending time and money (in the form of supplies) designing and printing cards.

I've been getting good buzz on it, the online poll has 85% in the "must have" or "going to buy" categories, and my own experiments have shown that you can make cards at home that look as good or better than off-the-shelf cards. I'll bring some samples to GenCon.

But will it work? I got not a freakin' clue. One good thing is that one person buying the game can (and is encouraged) to print two copies of the sample deck, so they can immediately get a friend to play it. Whether or not this turns into a copy of the software magically appearing in the friend's hands is a hazard of the pdf business.

I have not found anyone who does pre-perfed poker card sheets in the 9-per-sheet format of iA, but at http://bgdf.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=36&osCsid=2b197b9672547847ec6587c3dc973108 you can apparently get them in 6-per-sheet at $8.00 per 25 sheets (5.33 cents per card). Because of the high graphic content of iA cards I'm just as happy having them done on regular paper. That way the idiosyncracies of each printer's margins don't have to be taken into account (an otherwise nice card looks awful if it isn't centered and is bordered by an uneven amount of white space).

In the end, an online-only format will certainly cut into sales if it is a product that would normally go on retail shelves, and even more so if they have to get supplies that aren't available at a local office supply store. On the other hand, you're saving yourself a huge amount of production costs, as well as lesser amounts of shipping and warehousing.

Greg Porter
BTRC guy

P.S. And in iA it is the information on the card that matters, not the appearance, so you can do an entire "tournament deck" with a dull pencil and as long as the numbers add up and are legible, it will be "legal".

[daMoose_Neo]

That would be the guys at Protoparts actually ^_^
Nice numbers though, Greg. Know of anyone else who does something similar? I know Atlas has their Dungeoneer series, though I'm not too sure how thats put together (I thought I recalled seeing them on a POD site).
Seems like you're following the same train of thought, "Print one for your friend too!", like to see what that does for sales.

Divergence has the same assumptions about frequency, hence why it just might fly. With the game tied to my novels, the world will change, new factions will appear, new mechanics will be introduced, new things will show up that folks will want to try.
I'll do a swap with you at GenCon ^_^ I'm at least having a CD with the rules and some packs of the cards present there, we'll see how well that flies. Don't plan on selling that many, but I know I have people coming for Twilight, so it'll be a good pitch to them.

[Veritas Games]

As to how it could be done better, yes, perforated sheets would be good. The quality of stock neccesary, however, would jam most printers. The guys over at Protoparts are working on such a creature actually, but it only works for select printers.

The reason the new Protoparts beta only works on certain printers might be that it's actually full blown playing card stock, that's coated.  That's thick stuff, and wouldn't work in an inkjet even if it were thinner due to the coating.

I was talking about a lighter C1S stock.  Plaincards uses just such a technology and they work great for quick inkjet cards.

[daMoose_Neo]

As far as I know, the Protoparts cards they're testing are not coated. If they were, it'd be quite difficult to get a good print out of them. I also know the process I'm using now will closely match the cards already produced.

Now then, lets steer this back to topic on producing the rules. Options in standing:
1) Printed rulebook ala a Source Book. By itself, possibly quite dull so spice it up with histories on the factions and characters involved and background story.
2) Produce the rules as a PDF with directions included with the blank packs on where to obtain them. Spread the PDF rules around the net and get them in as many hands as possible.
3) Both, but, I believe, the printed book will need some justification for paying $5-$10 for something you can get off the net for free.

Pros, cons of this/these are what I want to discuss.

[madelf]

My gut feeling is to go with both. People like options.
I don't think it needs any justification, myself. There are any number of books (game or otherwise) that are available for free online, and are also sold as print editions.

[Veritas Games]

3) Both, but, I believe, the printed book will need some justification for paying $5-$10 for something you can get off the net for free.

A few options.  Include no filler art, no stories, nothing extra in the online version.  Then the print version has value added.

Another option -- sell the print copy at cost if you are doing this primarily to support sales of the main game as opposed to trying to make profits off the new rules.  Not sure of your goals.

[daMoose_Neo]

Another option -- sell the print copy at cost if you are doing this primarily to support sales of the main game as opposed to trying to make profits off the new rules.  Not sure of your goals.

This popped up in my head, and its an option, but given that I do have some distribution sales and players picking it up at a couple FLGS, I have to be careful. Offering up a hardcopy of a baredocument online is one thing: I can offer it at $2.00, and thats cost + shipping. I can't quite get away with that on a retail shelf, which is why I was thinking "what else...?", so that I could sell it just above cost (to cover shipping it to and fro) and have a retail-possible book.

Looking at the possibilities and where I'm considering taking this now, something along this line of thought is seeming to be most viable. Offer the core of the rules of the game, design rules, and the first set of design options, and away we go.