[Donjon] via IRC [long]

[JamesDJIII]

We've decided to try out Donjon via IRC.

Below is a transcript of the pregame discussions.

It's been edited to remove chit-chat and other unrelated text.

I was hoping that some of the more experienced Donjon-eers could look at the Supporting abilities and comment on their validity. I think we did ok, but we we're not 100% sure.

One of the things that popped up for me was that the players wanted a Dark Sun setting. I knew nothing about Dark Sun other than what I had seen on the covers of the game materials back in the day. I don't think this will hurt me too much - since the players in Donjon have the ability to dictate so much content and color. Any comments on how you may have handled similar setting inexperience is appreciated.

22:04:57 <GreyOrm> Well, do we want to decide seriousness level first, or setting first?
22:05:54 <jjeffers> I've seen a lot fo discussion about the seriousness levels and the gist was "Can you do non-silly stuff with Donjon?" I'd be interested in trying a more serious game. But I'm flexible.
22:06:11 <GreyOrm> That's my feeling too, James.
22:06:30 <jjeffers> Why don't we try "Serious" then?
22:06:39 <NytCrawlr> Serious works for me.
22:07:10 <jjeffers> <Donjon bot> Seriousness level has been set to "Serious"
22:07:38 <NytCrawlr> I'm in a PBP game that is serious, but is very slow going, and a real life game that is serious as well, so I'm all for serious.
22:10:32 <jjeffers> So, we're set on "Serious" now.
22:11:41 <GreyOrm> Yep. What sort of campaign setting? Honestly, I've been thinking "Hrm, could we do Dark Sun with Donjon? But I'm betting you don't recall enough about it to make it fly well.
22:12:10 <jjeffers> Yeah probably not - but I'm sure we can incorporate elements from Dark Sun to make it interesting for you DS junkies.
22:12:36 <jjeffers> Like, lots of grit and sand?
22:12:49 <jjeffers> I'm just going by what I remember from the box covers...
22:13:21 <GreyOrm> Yes. Sorcery is bad...it destroys the land. Mutant insects everywhere. Despotic immortal sorcerer-kings rule the world. Slavery is an acccepted practice, and freemen don't have it much better. Etc.
22:13:24 <jjeffers> A sort of post-disaster desert feel? Arcane magic in long lost tombs..
22:13:35 <GreyOrm> Yeah, that sounds good. Nate?
22:14:05 <NytCrawlr> Works for me!
22:14:19 <jjeffers> That should be enough for me to begin priming the pump! In Donjon, the players get to add so much in the course of play.
22:14:25 <NytCrawlr> Finally, a non-slow moving DS game, heh.
22:14:28 <jjeffers> Like facts and color!
22:15:00 <jjeffers> In any case ... Attributes for your characters... I think this calls for highy competent PCs... low whiff factors...
22:15:17 <jjeffers> How about the "player allocated" option for attribute generation?
22:16:13 <GreyOrm> Works for me. Any objections, Nate?
22:16:43 <jjeffers> Nathan, there are 6 attributes... This option allows you to spred 21 points over these attributes,,,
22:16:44 <GreyOrm> You know, we need a die bot.
22:16:47 <NytCrawlr> Reading it now.
22:17:01 <jjeffers> GreyOrm: dice bots... yeah I was researching those...
22:17:12 <jjeffers> Does this IRC site have them?
22:17:13 <NytCrawlr> Choosing Abilities?
22:17:32 <jjeffers> Nathan: beginning of Chapter 2
22:18:10 <jjeffers> You can either go with the Player-Allocated option or go by the default, which is to roll for them, basically.
22:18:18 <jjeffers> No score can be lower than 1, no score higher than 6.
22:18:33 <jjeffers> We dont need to generate them now... we can generate them later and email the details.
22:18:45 <jjeffers> Unless you guys want to do that now, it's all cool!
22:19:00 <GreyOrm> Hey, I'm fine with generating now.
22:19:13 <jjeffers> Do youguys have ideas about what sort of characters you want to make?
22:21:11 <GreyOrm> I'm thinking about that right now. Gladiator adjunct to a wizard, maybe...or a psychic Master of the Way.
22:21:43 <GreyOrm> (ie: the Way is the name for the study and pratice of psychic powers...everyone and everything has them to some extent)
22:22:08 <jjeffers> The Donjon rules basically say "railroad the shit out of the start of the game" so dont get caught up on any sort of justification as to why you guys are together, etc.)
22:22:18 <jjeffers> GreyOrm; gotcha
22:36:57 <GreyOrm> Ah well. So, back to character creation, game talk. Any thoughts on what sort of character you're going to want, Nate?
22:37:15 <NytCrawlr> Thinking of an archer of sorts.
22:37:40 <NytCrawlr> Either that or a Villichi Warrior of the Way.
22:37:43 <jjeffers> So, probably Adroitness will be important.
22:37:49 <jjeffers> If you go with an archer.
22:38:39 * NytCrawlr nods
22:38:47 <NytCrawlr> Reading through the class and race stuff now.
22:39:23 <GreyOrm> Why not a Villichi archer?
22:39:49 <GreyOrm> Like a saxxy pseudo-religious psychic archer?
22:40:49 <GreyOrm> BTW, bad news. The network bot does not have the ability to sort rolls.
22:40:57 <jjeffers> dagnabbit
22:42:31 <jjeffers> We'll figure something out.
22:42:37 <jjeffers> But, back to characters
22:43:24 <GreyOrm> If Nate goes with the villichi concept, I'll probably go with the Master of the Way.
22:43:42 <jjeffers> I'm going to nod sagely.
22:44:11 <GreyOrm>  Basically, we can just treat it like a wizard, but call it something different.
22:44:46 <jjeffers> Works for me. I supose then you're going to make a "magic" using character, in Donjon terms... the color will be psionics?
22:44:54 <jjeffers> Or... something else?
22:45:00 <jjeffers> Like special abilities?
22:45:10 <GreyOrm> Yep.
22:45:24 <GreyOrm> Magic-using character with Color "psionics"
22:45:38 <jjeffers> okey dokey.
22:45:45 <GreyOrm> I'm assuming we'll be using the standard Humans have classes, everything else is a race bit?
22:45:55 <jjeffers> Yes, that sounds reasonable.
22:46:13 <jjeffers> Hmmm... I'm getting some neat ideas from the whole "immortal sorcerer kings" thing.
22:46:18 <GreyOrm> So, my Class is thus Master of the Way.
22:46:26 <GreyOrm> EVIL immortal sorcerer kings. :)
22:46:37 <jjeffers> Oh, I just assumed everyone was basically EVIL.
22:46:41 <GreyOrm> Don't forget that. Eat their own mothers. Most of them probably did.
22:46:59 <jjeffers> The kings are just overhwlemingy evil.
22:47:39 <GreyOrm> Heh. Well, civilized niceties are few and far between, but I don't know if I would say everyone is EVIL, per se. Harsh, survival-oriented, yes...inhuman? Cruel masochists? No.
22:48:46 <jjeffers> What is "Villichi"?
22:50:22 <GreyOrm> A sort of humanoid...tall white skinned females with exceptional psychic ability, who gather together in monastic fighting Orders. Nathan can correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.
22:50:49 <NytCrawlr> Heh
22:51:03 <NytCrawlr> Pretty much sums them up.
22:53:32 <NytCrawlr> Alright, so abilities.
22:54:36 <jjeffers> Got 6 of them and 21 points to spread amongst them.
22:54:44 * NytCrawlr nods
22:56:36 <jjeffers> Oops, you meant "abilities" and not "attributes"?
22:56:42 * NytCrawlr nods
22:56:47 <jjeffers> Mea culpa.
22:56:58 <GreyOrm> Yep. Abilities. Master of the Way. Main: Uses Psychic Powers. Supporting: ??? Hrm...
22:57:11 <NytCrawlr> manifest Psionics would be a supporting one.
22:57:30 <jjeffers> Nathan, do you mean for your Villichi or the Master of the Way?
22:57:33 <GreyOrm> Nah, that comes under "Uses Psychic Powers"...
22:57:36 <NytCrawlr> Villichi.
22:58:07 <NytCrawlr> Don't mind me, just thinking out loud.
22:58:46 <jjeffers> And the Main ability for the Villichi might be... like "Kill/damages  with archery"?
22:59:03 <NytCrawlr> ONE WITH THE BOW probably main ability.
22:59:04 <jjeffers> "hit people with weapons"
22:59:08 <jjeffers> ok
22:59:13 <jjeffers> One With The Bow
22:59:13 <NytCrawlr> That work?
22:59:18 <jjeffers> Yeah, works for me!
22:59:34 <NytCrawlr> Forming her in my head as I go, heh.
22:59:35 <jjeffers> And the 4 supporting abilities?
22:59:49 <NytCrawlr> One would be USES PSYCHIC POWERS
22:59:56 <jjeffers> gotcha
23:00:42 <NytCrawlr> SNEAK AND HIDE
23:00:51 <NytCrawlr> Or is that two?
23:01:13 <GreyOrm> Nah, I'd say it's one...basic creeping-aroundish-ness
23:01:22 <NytCrawlr> This fire is outta control, we gotta burn this city! Burn this city!
23:01:24 <GreyOrm> (I mean, what's the point of sneaking if you can't stay hidden?)
23:01:31 <NytCrawlr> Yeah, that's what I was picturing.
23:01:56 <NytCrawlr> Sorry Franz Ferdinand playing in the background.
23:02:16 <NytCrawlr> TRACK
23:02:35 <GreyOrm> Supporting abilities: Influence Villagers. Retain Inner Calm.
23:03:27 <jjeffers> "Track" might be too general - can we make it more specific?
23:04:14 <GreyOrm> But I'm worried about the generality of those as Supporting Abilities.
23:04:36 <NytCrawlr> TRACK HUMANOIDS?
23:04:50 <jjeffers> Yeah, Track Humanoids is better
23:04:57 * GreyOrm nods
23:05:00 <NytCrawlr> Or maybe TRACK IN WILDERNESS?
23:05:28 <jjeffers> The guidelines is that the supporting ability has to only work in specific situations.
23:05:39 <jjeffers> So... Track in Wilderness works fine.
23:05:44 <jjeffers> "Sneak and Hide"..
23:05:44 <NytCrawlr> So that would work then, I'll go with that.
23:05:52 <jjeffers> "Sneak in the Shadows"?
23:05:57 <jjeffers> Or...?
23:06:15 <jjeffers> "Walk a Hallway Noiselessly"
23:06:17 <jjeffers> or...
23:06:35 <jjeffers> "Stalk Prey in the Desert Witout Being Heard?
23:07:19 <GreyOrm> "Kill Bob"
23:07:27 <jjeffers> Yeah, that's very specific!
23:07:31 <NytCrawlr> Stalk Prey Without Being Heard?
23:07:47 <GreyOrm> No need to be over-specific.
23:07:50 <jjeffers> We're getting there
23:08:15 <jjeffers> Stalk Prey Without Being Heard is probably good for now
23:08:15 <NytCrawlr> Stalk Prey In Wilderness Without Being Heard?
23:08:21 <NytCrawlr> Ok.
23:08:28 <jjeffers> Constraint is that you have to be stalking something, right?
23:08:33 <NytCrawlr> Yes.
23:08:33 <jjeffers> I think that's fine.
23:08:41 <NytCrawlr> Cool.
23:09:14 <jjeffers> So we have "Stalk Prey Without Being Heard" and "Track in the Wilderness"
23:09:18 <jjeffers> 2 more
23:09:19 <GreyOrm> My friend Em wants to sit in on the character creation. She's too busy to play, but interested. Ok with you two?
23:09:37 <jjeffers> Fine with me!
23:09:49 <NytCrawlr> No problems here.
23:09:52 <GreyOrm> cool
23:10:43 <NytCrawlr> [22:19] <@jjeffers> So we have "Stalk Prey Without Being Heard" and "Track in the Wilderness" <--- Uses Psychic Powers, and One With the Bow for Main.
23:10:55 <jjeffers> Yes, I stand corrected.
23:11:04 <jjeffers> 1 more Suporting Ability
23:11:17 <NytCrawlr> Dammit, I just had it my head, hehe.
23:11:24 <NytCrawlr> Oh yes.
23:11:37 -- Lorkia (~emilyd@216.70.32.***) has joined #indie-rpgs
23:11:44 <jjeffers> Welcome.
23:11:45 <NytCrawlr> Dodges Easily
23:11:47 <Lorkia> Heya :)  Thanks.
23:11:51 <NytCrawlr> Hi Lorkia.
23:11:59 <Lorkia> <sits in the corner quietly> :)
23:12:00 <GreyOrm> James, Nate, this is Em. Em, James and Nate.
23:12:06 <NytCrawlr> I'm thinking of a tumbling type manuever to get out of harm's way, etc.
23:12:07 <jjeffers> Good evening, Em.
23:12:14 <NytCrawlr> Hi Em.
23:12:22 <jjeffers> Dodge in Melee
23:12:29 <NytCrawlr> There we go.
23:12:29 <Lorkia> Hi James and Nate :)
23:12:32 <jjeffers> The color is it's a nifty acrobatic move.
23:12:40 <GreyOrm> Avoids Blows? With the constraint being that it only applies to combat (not falling rocks and such)
23:12:49 <jjeffers> Avoid Blows works too.
23:12:55 <GreyOrm> Oh, you got it while I was typing <G>
23:12:57 <jjeffers> Or is that for you?
23:13:05 <NytCrawlr> Dodge in Melee works.
23:13:13 <GreyOrm> No, not for me. I've got two, sort of, but can't figure the other two out.
23:13:21 <jjeffers> Greyorm: your supporting abilities... Calm Villagers is good...
23:13:33 <jjeffers> Retain Inner Calm... what would that do? And in what situations?
23:13:51 <GreyOrm> Yeah, that's the problem. I'm trying to think how to put a constraint on it.
23:14:35 <GreyOrm> Basically, NO FEAR...no fleeing madly for one's life. Extra Discernment or Cerebrality dice under stress.
23:14:49 <NytCrawlr> That's cool.
23:15:34 <jjeffers> So... only under stress... perhaps we can limit the types of stress this works on.
23:15:43 <GreyOrm> Yeah.
23:16:24 <jjeffers> combat stress?
23:16:31 <jjeffers> Or... social confrontations?
23:16:40 <jjeffers> Or... psionic conflicts?
23:16:55 <GreyOrm> Damn.
23:17:01 <NytCrawlr> Heh
23:17:21 <NytCrawlr> This is hard and fun all at the same time, I love it.
23:17:38 <jjeffers> Or,... how about the ability only is used against any stress but against certain opponents?
23:18:28 <GreyOrm> Hrm...ok. How would that look? Like, "Retains Cool Against Marauders"
23:18:37 <GreyOrm> Or "When Facing Sorcerers"
23:18:40 <jjeffers> Ah!
23:18:42 <jjeffers> Yeah
23:18:46 <GreyOrm> Yeah. I likes it.
23:18:52 <jjeffers> Or "Evil Immortal Sorcerer Kings"
23:19:00 <GreyOrm> lol...a little TOO specific.
23:19:01 <jjeffers> Whatever shakes your can.
23:19:11 <GreyOrm> "Against Bob"
23:19:23 <NytCrawlr> [22:28] <@jjeffers> it's a fun hard.  <--- All sorts of imagery pops (pun intended) up there.
23:19:24 <jjeffers> Retains Inner Calm When Facing Sorcerers.
23:19:34 <GreyOrm> He's the only one that can face Bob!
23:20:50 <GreyOrm> Ok, cool. Have two of four down. What else can my psychic master wandering priest dude DO?
23:21:12 <jjeffers> Heal the sick?
23:21:17 <jjeffers> Inspire hope?
23:21:24 <GreyOrm> Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
23:21:34 <jjeffers> I'm assuming he's not an evil carnival-type of priest.
23:21:39 <GreyOrm> Inspire Loyalty. Hrm, Hope works, too.
23:22:05 <GreyOrm> No. The Masters of the Way are devoted to inner balance and mind-body harmony.
23:24:39 <jjeffers> How about any sort of defensive abilities related to magic?
23:24:58 <GreyOrm> Actually, I was thinking Decipher Ancient Writing.
23:24:59 <jjeffers> or survival ones... this being a dry sort of oppresive place?
23:25:12 <jjeffers> Deciper Ancient Writing... ok 1 more down!
23:25:34 <GreyOrm> And, yes, how about Desert Survival? Given that he wanders place to place, he should know how to do things like that.
23:26:08 <GreyOrm> However, I'm wondering, aren't the abilities supposed to be...hrm, templateish? (for a class or race)
23:27:59 <jjeffers> The text goes as far as saying they can be anything you want... but I think Desert Survival works well with a wandering Mster of the Way
23:28:07 <GreyOrm> Ok.
23:28:11 <jjeffers> I'm cool with it.
23:28:21 <jjeffers> If we are wrong, well, I don't wanna be right.
23:28:40 <GreyOrm> Heh. Ok. I'm thinking it's a little looser than the rules imply, but I'm ok with it.
23:28:50 <GreyOrm> (That is, Abilities are supposed to be Class specific)
23:29:02 <jjeffers> When we post this allt o Actual play, I'm sure we'll get some feedback.
23:29:08 <jjeffers> Until then, on with our delusions!
23:29:18 <NytCrawlr> So what level are we starting at?
23:29:37 <GreyOrm> Yes, Clinton will descend upon us with eyes of fire, screaming obscenities and banning us from EVER playing Donjon again!
23:29:57 <GreyOrm> <G>
23:30:16 <GreyOrm> Level 1, I'm thinking. And we can modify that later, if we decide. But for now, to get used to it?
23:30:29 <jjeffers> Agreed.
23:31:21 <NytCrawlr> Works for me.
23:31:44 <jjeffers> Now you guys have to allocate 20 dice to your Abiltities...
23:32:37 <jjeffers> And have to set 5 and 3 dice to Wealth and Provisions
23:33:30 <NytCrawlr> Saves and Flesh Wounds are counted as Abilities too?
23:34:33 <jjeffers> yes
23:35:00 <jjeffers> it's a capacity, not a decriptions
23:35:10 * NytCrawlr nods
23:35:16 <jjeffers> The Savings Throws default to the listed attributes...
23:35:31 <jjeffers> No score can be higher than your Level + 3, I think
23:35:42 * NytCrawlr nods
23:36:20 <GreyOrm> Yep.
23:36:35 <GreyOrm> So, 20 to split among the five abilities, and Flesh Wounds?
23:36:46 <jjeffers> and the Savings Throws
23:38:23 <GreyOrm> Ah, ok.
23:40:45 <NytCrawlr> Decisions, decisions...
23:41:08 <jjeffers> Well, dont feel as if these have to be baked up right now
23:41:22 <jjeffers> We can exchange emails about them in the meantime
23:41:27 <NytCrawlr> Ok.
23:43:50 <jjeffers> Sounds good, everyone.
23:43:51 <GreyOrm> Well, here's what I'm thinking for my guy, Attribute-wise: Vir: 3, Cer: 2, Dis: 6, Adr: 2, Whr: 3, Soc: 5
23:44:07 <jjeffers> ok
23:44:33 <GreyOrm> Might change those somewhat. Thinking a clever, wise, charismatic wanderer -- thus somewhat hearty.
23:44:49 <NytCrawlr> Here's mine so far.
23:44:51 <NytCrawlr> Vir: 4
23:44:51 <NytCrawlr> Cer: 4
23:44:51 <NytCrawlr> Dis: 3
23:44:51 <NytCrawlr> Adr: 6
23:44:51 <NytCrawlr> Whe: 2
23:44:52 <NytCrawlr> Soc: 2
23:45:02 <NytCrawlr> Thinking of changing them around a little though.
23:45:14 <NytCrawlr> I don't think I want my Whe that low.
23:45:15 <jjeffers> No problem on the adjustments... take your time.
23:46:04 <jjeffers> I have 2 dogs crawling up my legs to get outside... I gotta take them out. Lets keep in touch via email, etc, and shall we reconvene next week, same time and same place for the delving?
23:46:12 <GreyOrm> Yeah, probably not good for in combat. Though maybe that's why she's an archer?
23:46:16 <GreyOrm> Not good on the front lines.
23:46:30 * NytCrawlr nods

[James_Nostack]

James, I've been meaning to play IRC Donjon for a while now!  Since I've never played the game I can't give you a whole lot of feedback, but it sounds good to me!  If you need a dicebot for sorting Donjon rolls, I have one that uses Java 2.  I'm shuffling computers around this week, but if you PM me I'd be happy to send it over once things settle down.

[Christopher Weeks]

The thing that stands out for me is that there wasn't much (any?) discussion about setting up abilities specifically to be good at creating facts to steer the game.  That's weird to me.  The two times that I played Donjon, that was a front'n'center issue.  You guys are groking the importance of this aspect, right?  I mean you can always twist things up to include facts, but having an ability that's specifically supposed to do that is worth considering.

[JamesDJIII]

We're all new to Donjon. I'm sure these ideas (such as tailoring abilities) just didn't occur to us. We've probably been trained to look for and focus on other things. I betcha once we start to play, that light will go on and we'll all say "oh yeaaaaahhhh."

The only problem with the dice bot on magicstar IRC was that the dice roll results were not in any order.

It would be really nice to have a dice bot that could produce dice results in ascending or descending order.

[greyorm]

The thing that stands out for me is that there wasn't much (any?) discussion about setting up abilities specifically to be good at creating facts to steer the game.

I was thinking about that after we went through character creation, knowing how Donjon is set up, and I noticed that when reading through the rules it isn't obvious/apparent that that is one of the main factors in deciding what abilities to choose. The text focuses mainly on restricting the secondary abilities, avoiding abuse due to broadness, and doesn't really state anything about choosing abilities in regards to the ability to create facts.

We didn't even discuss what sort of adventure idea we were looking at/going for during the session. Originally, I had figured either James could just develop something and set us loose, or we could ask him to develop something, and be set loose in it. Both ways work just fine for me; and since we didn't discuss anything, I wasn't overly concerned with or set on the idea of us deciding on a start point ourselves.

James asked later via e-mail, and I'm in the process of typing up some seed ideas that I desperately need to finish and send to him.

[JamesDJIII]

GreyOrm, is right - he was (or seemed to be) more concerned about not abusing the system.

But I trust these guys. We can move on to abuse later.

Dunjon seems to be light in the "this is how you prepare" part of the rules. I'm assuming this is because more preperation is worse, if it's done like the traditional, D&D sort of way. In either case, I'm still enjoying the process!

[Christopher Weeks]

GreyOrm, is right - he was (or seemed to be) more concerned about not abusing the system.

Raven, abuse the system. James, abuse Raven.  I'd put in a winking smiley if I weren't kind of serious.  I think it's part of the game.

[Larry L.]

Regarding Donjon preparation:

The rules are kinda iffy about how many foes to throw at players. You want to err on the small side... many opponents will drag combats into boredom.

Also, the rules suggest the first "dungeon level" should be some sort of outdoors-y setting. Fuck that. Railroad 'em straight to the dungeon entrance.

[JamesDJIII]

Larry,

I did find somethig in the text about the number of opponents. And I am leaning towards fewer bad guys, especially in IRC. With regard to the  railroading past the outdoorsy scenes - any particular play experience you'd like to share about that?

I have a sketch of the Chapters/Scenes just like Clinton says to do. I'm missing a lot of locale information (where in Athas is this?) and some other cultural nuances. Again, I'll be leaning on Raven and Nathan to go hog wild there.

[Larry L.]

James,

See our Actual Play here.

Specifically... in both that session and in a session I didn't run, neither party actually got as far as the dungeon. I think, really, that everyone was looking forward to the part where you get to narrate new corridors and secret doors and what not, and the tromping about outside ends up being an unnecessary delay of that. "Cut to the good part!" I mean, the name of the game is Donjon!, not Wilderness Trek!

Maybe do the outdoor levels later, after the first game... just like OD&D.

Also, the undead as statted out in Donjon Pak B1 are fucking tanks. Don't use them. This should not be hard given your setting -- most of the usual fantasy humanoid races were exterminated from Athas. Just make up crazy psionic animal-beasts. Do stat these up ahead of time.