The Roleplaying Blues

[Jacob]

Hey all,

I'm not sure if I'm looking for advice or just a barstool to sit on while I vent my gaming woes, but I've just started a new game using a modified version of the Trollbabe system, and I spent a good chunk of the time wanting to bash my head into the gaming table.

I picked the Trollbabe system for my game because I like the dynamics of the system (and I hate heavy obtuse systems like d20) and I'm trying to pull the game out of the combat minutiae that wargame based systems fall into, and encourage more inter-player dialogue and role-playing. It worked very well in the short term when I ran Charnel Gods, but I'm using a slightly different player group this time, and I am hitting heavy resistance for pulling out a non-standard (aka, not d20) game.

Two of my players are DnD vets, the lack of specific stats that govern exactly what you can and cannot do is driving them crazy.

Player #1 is stressing out trying to understand the 'limits and power level' of the game. His years of RPG conditioning are simply working against him.

Typically in a game, Player #1 enjoys becoming as powerful as he possibly can. The lack of progression (stat wise) is going to kill this game for him, I fear.

Player #2 is frankly just being an ass, and I'm torn between trying to win him over or asking him not to come back. He sat on the couch for the first our or so, and when I asked him if he had any ideas for his character (I had sent out character and world info a week ago in an email) he said "7" and went back to watching TV.

Typically in a game, Player #2 enjoys taking an existing rule, class or character template and re-skinning it to appear to be something else. Ironically, games that encourage this (Savage Worlds, for example) are a complete turn off for him.

Player #3, The female gamer of the group (unsurprisingly) loves the whole premise and is really the only reason I'm even trying to run this gauntlet.

Typically in a game, Player #3 enjoys deep interaction and role-playing. She's a fantastic player and the best damn GM I've come across.

Player #4 is ambivalent. He's always ambivalent.

Typically in a game, Player #4 likes having the game unfold around him. He's not an active player, he's a reactive one, and then only barely. He's the kind of guy who would play a CPRG for the cut scenes.

Now I didn't start playing RPGs until college, and never really developed the habits and mindset of a typical DnD gamer. My mentality towards role-playing games is much closer to what I see on these forums, and I was wondering if any of you have tried to sell story driven games to an old-school gamer crowd, and if you have any suggestions or anecdotes to share.

Thanks for the help, (or at least for the chance to vent my frustration)

-Jake

[TonyLB]

Is there a reason (other than your own inertia) that players #1, 2 and 4 are still gaming with you?

My line in similar situations goes something like "Wow!  We don't seem to be having a lot of fun gaming.  How about we find other things to do together as friends.  Movies?  Basketball?  Summer-time is Rennaissance faire time!"

[Eric Provost]

I'm gonna second Tony's question.

Then, I'm gonna point out an experience of mine and suggest that the same may work for you.

See, once I got on the indie-boat I realized we were having more fun in less time, so I didn't need as many hours devoted to a single game anymore.  Which means that now I can devote the same amount of time in a month to gaming but now I run two or three different games!  My gamer Nik didn't dig Dogs but he's all about playtesting FH8 with us.  Great.  Fantastic.  I don't expect him to come to a game of DitV but I know he'll be first in the door when I wanna playtest FH8.  Maura is a noob gamer and is intimidated by dealing with rules that are half-baked.  So, she's my DitV gamer right now.  And possibly my future Trollbabe player.

Here's how I handle it:

I've got about half a dozen regular players, each with different likes and dislikes for gaming.  When I wanna play a particular game I send out an email to all of them about which game and when.  Those that don't like what I'm about to play don't come to that session, but might come to the next one.

So, in your shoes, I'd make sure that I hooked up with player 3 regularly for Trollbabe.  I wouldn't try to convert the other three at all.  I'd invite them to play, but I'd make it clear that Trollbabe is the game of the night and they can play or not show. 

Ok, I might try to convert player 1.  I'd go with the "Try it once" pitch that I used on my crew for DitV.  But if he didn't like it, I wouldn't push the issue. 

I'd also ask player 2 why he's gotta be a dick about it, but that's an issue between you and him.

Lots of luck to you.

-Eric

[xenopulse]

Here's the issue: games like Trollbabe and Sorcerer are player-empowering games. They grant more power to the players, but their success also depends on the players actually making use of that, proactively. Some gamers are not interested in having more power; they just want to be entertained by you. Others are intimidated by that power, or just (as mentioned) too conditioned by traditional games. That type of player can be "brought around," carefully. The first type of player, however, is better off in a traditional group (or actually just watching TV, as in your example), and your and the other players' time is wasted by trying to include them.

[Jacob]

Wow, some great posts already. Thanks.

TonyLB: We still game together because this game is a break from the norm. We traditionally play 'structured' games. (So they think. Just because they have character sheets in front of them doesn't mean I pay the stats any attention. The dice are just there to satisfy some deep-seated Freudian need.)

I usually feel constrained and limited by traditional RPGs, and figured they did too. I was wrong. The like the rules, and want them back. Go figure.

Techno: Players 1 and 3 come as a package deal. I HAVE been in games with just player 3, but I'd rather not go down that path. If its up to me, its both or neither of them.

Players 2 was being a dick because he didn't like the idea of what he called a 'diceless system' and instead of just not showing up, he was a baby about it. In retrospect, I shouldn't have pushed him to 'give it a try.'

Xeno: That's the ironic part. Player 4 is your first kind of player, but he's going with the flow. I can't really count on him to add to the story, but he provides a good sounding board to bounce stuff off of. He is also good at taking mundane situations and turning them into a crisis. Not good in dnd, could be fantastic in a more story driven game. I see him a solid GM's tool. Players 1 and 2 tend to be more story driven, but I feel they are so used to 'fighting the current' of traditional games they are uncomfortable in games where they are encouraged to do so. Player 2 LOVES characters who 'break the mold,' but actively dislikes games where there is no mold.

I think my initial fears were correct, and I feel a bit relieved because of it. Maybe this just isn't the group for a good 'indie' game. I can have fun in their games, so I guess I should stop trying to show them mine. Not everyone likes to think outside the box.

[xenopulse]

By the way, welcome to the Forge, Jake :)

I do agree that not every group (not to mention every player) is going to grok indie games. But! You point out that you are already changing the way you play, and there are many techniques you can use to make more traditional play more satisfying.

So they like rules... give them rules they can understand and use at their leisure. Positioning mechanisms, for example; like Fate Points. Take a look at FATE (www.faterpg.com). Fate Points can be used for several things, like rerolls, but also minor authorship statements ("My character is unarmed, running around in this mansion; Hmm. I spend a Fate Point: there are two crossed swords as decoration on the wall, and lo and behold, they are actual fighting blades!"). Also, look at how Fate uses Aspects, giving players the chance to do rerolls when they think it's important, but again also introducing the option of some authorship. That's important; players can but do not have to use that power, the game works either way. So the players can slowly learn to have more creative input into the game--or not, as they want.

Next, on your end, you can use such wonderful tools as Bangs and Relationship Maps (see Sorcerer and its supplements).

So, even if your players want to play the more traditional systems, there's a lot you can do to make it more fun for you and them.

[Larry L.]

Hi Jake!

If you want a more traditionally structured game that's still chock full of indie goodness, check out Burning Wheel.

Don't limit yourself to your gamer friends when recruiting players for these sorts of games.

And you totally don't need anyone's blessing to tell player 2 to fuck off.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Jake,

I'm a bit confused about one thing. Are you ...

- trying to find the right game for this group of specific people?

- or trying to find a way to play the game you want, and happen to be working with this combination of people at the moment?

Because if it's the first, we can start with the group, like the discussion seems to be going. But if it's the second, then we have to start with the Trollbabe variant and then talk about how to deal with the people. These are pretty different discussions and I don't see a way to do both at once.

Best,
Ron

[Jacob]

I wasn't sure what wanted at first, Ron. The night was a failure, the rules were the culprit (I'm sorry to say), and I felt my story slipping through my fingers. I love the system presented in Trollbabe. Some of my players actively dislike it. There's the rub.

For Player 3's sake, I am going to give the game another shot. However I do feel I need to cater a bit more to the other players' wants / needs as well. If that means changeing the rules around, or chosing a new rules system, that is what I'll do. All I really care about is the story. Heck I might just have the player make d20 characters, and keep a copy of trollbabe behind the GM screen :) What they dont know won't hurt them.

Thanks for all the positive feedback!

[Eero Tuovinen]

Jacob: I emphasize with trying to fit all the players in the game. I do it myself. However, the thinking you exhibit in your last post heads straight for disaster:

For Player 3's sake, I am going to give the game another shot. However I do feel I need to cater a bit more to the other players' wants / needs as well. If that means changeing the rules around, or chosing a new rules system, that is what I'll do. All I really care about is the story. Heck I might just have the player make d20 characters, and keep a copy of trollbabe behind the GM screen :) What they dont know won't hurt them.

I don't even know what you mean by this stuff. I literally can't imagine how you plan to "keep a copy of trollbabe behind the GM screen". Sure, you can keep a copy close by, but you certainly can't play the game without playing it. The major points of the game aren't in the GM tools it provides, but the player ones; if you aren't using them, I don't see how you'd gain anything by torturing yourself over it.

Also, if you don't mind, could you tell us more about the story? The story which is "all you care about". Because it's not clear to me what story you're thinking of. Do you have a story you want to tell, but don't care about the rules system you use to tell it, or what?

As a last note, could you tell us more about the inter-player relationships in the game? What kind of interaction did the players have with each other? Were they interested in each other's actions? Was it always you who initiated interaction, and was the interaction mostly between you and one of the players? Shedding light to these questions might help in utilizing the strengths of the game more efficiently, as well as clearing it up for you: it is entirely possible that even your players don't particularly enjoy playing with each other, in which case it's entirely feasible to split the group in two and let everybody play games they actually like.

For what it's worth, it seems to me that Trollbabe very much isn't something that a majority of your pals can get behind. What you have there is (if you'll allow a little exaggeration from a person who doesn't really know anything about the situation) a confrontational powergamer, a shithead, a story-invested roleplayer and a slacker. There are games that give better results for such a mix; I've myself experimented extensively with Dust Devils, which is excellent in channeling both power-play and slacking into efficient story-material. Trollbabe, it would seem to me, is pretty easily distracted if there's even one player with substandard commitment to the imagined situation. You seem to have three, which is a problem.

Personally I'd see d20 as a heartbreakingly sad end to the endeavour, but perhaps you see some merit in adopting it. I've never seen it produce any socially positive play, though, so the best I'd expect is a lukewarm campaign with no major inspiration behind it. YMMV, of course.

[Lamorak33]

Hey all,

I'm not sure if I'm looking for advice or just a barstool to sit on while I vent my gaming woes, but I've just started a new game using a modified version of the Trollbabe system, and I spent a good chunk of the time wanting to bash my head into the gaming table.

-Jake

Hi Jake

I can share your commiserations - my best buddies and the guys I had gamed with for years are just not interested in games that I would rather play - like Heroquest or Sorcerer.  So you know what, fuck them, I went and started a new gaming group of my own finding likeminded players on the internet and I'm having a great time, getting better now that I am aware of the stuff here at the Forge (I'm a new comer here myself).

I can guess 'find new players' isn't exactly a novel idea that you hadn't considered, sorry!!

Regards
Rob

[Jacob]

I was kind of joking when I said I'd keep a copy of Trollbabe behind the GM screen. I forget humor and sarcasm sometimes doesn't translate well across the interent sometimes.

After speaking with the players, it seems they want to give it another try using Trollbabe. Player 3 has brought Player 1 around and Player 4 is still willing to try it out. I think I'm going to ask Player 2 to not come back, and just go from there. He obviously was not having a good time, and I think it would be better for us both if he sat this one out.

I'll let you guys know how things go, and thanks for all the feedback.

[Larry L.]

I was kind of joking when I said I'd keep a copy of Trollbabe behind the GM screen. I forget humor and sarcasm sometimes doesn't translate well across the interent sometimes.

Heh. Well, the "bait-and-switch" GM thing is regrettably common enough to make people say, "No. Seriously. Don't do that."

[Valamir]

I wasn't sure what wanted at first, Ron. The night was a failure, the rules were the culprit (I'm sorry to say), and I felt my story slipping through my fingers. I love the system presented in Trollbabe. Some of my players actively dislike it. There's the rub.

Are you sure the rules were the culprit?

Because honestly "Trollbabe" and "my story..." are like matter and anti-matter.
There is no such thing as playing Trollbabe and having "my story..." as the GM at the same time.  If you had a story you were trying to push then you weren't really playing Trollbabe and if that's the case I suspect that's as big a part of the failure as the players discomfort with the rules...

[Jacob]

Perhaps "Story" is the wrong word, Valamir. It's more like a loose collection of ideas, concepts, characters and settings, wrapped up in a bit of a pseudo-archplot.

The game started out as a fully fleshed campaign before I found Trollbabe, but I've taken the game off its track and re-fitted it for off-road, so to speak. Now it's a setting with a couple detailed locations, and a whole lot of white space to be filled in as we go along.

I've since spoken to player 2, and I can see how I was at least partially at fault. He interpreted my enthusiasm as an "attack" against his games of choice, and got defensive.

I forget sometimes how defensive some gamers can get about their games. Role-playing is a loose hobby for me, for some people it is a way of life. Its almost like discussing religion with a hard-line believer.

On the positive side, good ol' Player 3 has sent me a nice big chruchy list of stuff she wants to do on her next session, so i'm chock full of ideas for her leg of the story.

I have a feeling this game may end up winding down into a one on one game with her. And in reality, that would probobly be for the best. She's not MY gamer-girlfriend, but shes A gamer girlfriend, and trollbabe is kinda optimised for that.

[Still shaking my head after Player 2s comment. "I could tell this was a chick game. Guys like DICE!" (insert a rather phallic dice rolling gesture.)]