[Shadow of the Lamb] Miracles

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Hey, all. I'm writing a new game hot on the heels of GenCon. It's called "Shadow of the Lamb" and is about the first three centuries of Christianity, and, hey, I bet that's not your bag. Cool.

You've got my attention. I just picked up TSoY at GenCon, the morning after attending the Christian Gamers Guild worship service.

Regarding "Skepticism" -- I recommend either calling it "Unbelief" or "Doubt." Both words have long been featured in modern English translations of the New Testament. I'm particularly fond of this verse:

"'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."

Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

Adam,

Awesome quote. Also, I wish I'd attended that service. I meant to, and then had a powerful game the night before that lasted until 2am. I will probably use "Unbelief." I like that a lot.

[ejh]

Clinton --

That's kinda what I suspected.  I hope this game comes together; it sounds like it could be pretty amazingly cool.  I've always enjoyed Credo (wish I still had a copy) and The Last Supper fascinated me.  This sounds like a cross between Credo and the Last Supper, if you will.

What do you think of my suggestion to turn attention from "do I or don't I believe a miracle happened" to "what does this event mean?"  If you're willing to give me your reaction to that I'm curious to know whether it seems helpful to you.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

My reaction to all of this is that a proper early Christian miracle must always be a *sign* of something, and what it is a sign of (at least in the interpretations of those present) must be essential to the rules for it in a game like this.

Perfecto. There's my rule on miracles: you can have any miracle you want, as long as it's a sign of something you (the character) personally believe in.

ejh, very nice work here. It is quite helpful to me for purposes of this game.

[rafial]

So I'm trying to envision in my head the breaking point.  The point at which you have to say "is it real?"  So let's say you are in a strange city, preaching to the faithful, and then a bunch of Roman soldiers bust down the door and shout "by order of governer, all here are to be put to death by sword".  But you say "Have no fear in you my brothers and sisters, for them that believe on the word, there is no harm in the steel of the world."  And the people, they believe, they really do, and the soliders, they believe too.  And the people get up and start walking among the soldiers and embracing them, and the soldiers are filled with wonder.

And then the captain, who was outside, talking to the governer, comes in and says "What are you men doing, did you not hear my order?" and puts his sword though the woman standing nearest him.

What happens then?

[timfire]

Dammit, I just wrote a bunch of text only to realize your new rule makes my comments obsolete. Oh well, I like your new rule. Here's some of what I wrote, just for you to think about.
_________________________________________

The whole "believe in miracles" is a tricky subject. There are certain passages where the success of a miracle is directly linked to an individual's belief ...

(25) And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years... (27) When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, (28) because she thought, "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed." (29) Immediately her bleeding stopped...

(30) At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who touched my clothes?" ...

(33) Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet... (34) He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you...

... but there are also passages where Jesus performs miracles despite people's disbelief...

(37) A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. (38) Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?"

(39) He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

(40) He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"

As a student of academic/historical biblical studies, I like Eero's and Ed's comments. Historically, the fact was that people back then believed in miracles. Christians weren't the only ones performing miracles. There are accounts of numerous religious leaders from that time period performing miracles. So in the historical sense, simply saying that miracles are "real" would be perfectly acceptable.

[quozl]

Historically, the fact was that people back then believed in miracles. Christians weren't the only ones performing miracles. There are accounts of numerous religious leaders from that time period performing miracles. So in the historical sense, simply saying that miracles are "real" would be perfectly acceptable.

Oh yeah, that reminds me of Simon the Sorcerer in the book of Acts.

[quozl]

Clinton,

Since you posted some personal info, I will too.

I do believe that the Bible is literal and I do believe in miracles.  However, I also believe that much of modern Christianity has lost what was originally there in Jesus' time.  Interestingly, my father is starting a study at his church about understanding Jesus' parables from the Jewish perspective (since Jesus was Jewish and his listeners were Jewish).  I've got his notes and am starting to read through them.

Now, as for your game:

I think, if I'm reading you right, that your premise for this is "What could have Christianity been?".  I think you may want to focus that so the question is a little more personal.  And while I think miracles are historically important and believed by many today, if you're not making miracles part of the foundation for your premise, it's just color and pretty distracting color at that.  You were kind of vague when saying if you believe in miracles.  I think that may be important.  What have you seen?  How did it affect you?  How did it change or form your beliefs?  I don't know what you've seen in the disaster there in New Orleans (and know my heart goes out to you), but I'm guessing the things you've seen and heard have affected you deeply.  Figure out how to write that down and codify it and you'll have something amazing.

I wish you the best and I hope I'm helping.

[ejh]

Clinton, something just hit me about this --

What if all the stakeholders in a given "miracle" got a Polaris-style negotiation power over miracles?

The example that leaps to mind, unfortunately a bit impious, and anachronistic since the game is supposed to take place *after* Jesus's time, would be...

Player 1: "Jesus rises from the dead!"
Player 2: "_but only if_ he disappears again after a period of time."
Player 1: "_but only if_ he appears to many during that time."
Player 2: "_but only if_ he doesn't write down any doctrine or leave any incontrovertible physical evidence, or make any appearances that go down in secular history books."
Player 1: "And so it was."

Just a half-formed idea, but it seems like it would allow for things that seem like miracles but do not nail down an particular side of an issue as authoritative.

[Spooky Fanboy]

So I'm trying to envision in my head the breaking point.  The point at which you have to say "is it real?"  So let's say you are in a strange city, preaching to the faithful, and then a bunch of Roman soldiers bust down the door and shout "by order of governer, all here are to be put to death by sword".  But you say "Have no fear in you my brothers and sisters, for them that believe on the word, there is no harm in the steel of the world."  And the people, they believe, they really do, and the soliders, they believe too.  And the people get up and start walking among the soldiers and embracing them, and the soldiers are filled with wonder.

And then the captain, who was outside, talking to the governer, comes in and says "What are you men doing, did you not hear my order?" and puts his sword though the woman standing nearest him.

What happens then?

I think that depends on what the group wants out of play. Do they want to emphasize the ambiguity, or do they want miracles as part of their experience?

In the former, I'd say an Unbelief roll is in order...with some penalty dice for those who already believe, plus the new guy. If all fail, then something happens: either the captain's arm cramps up, so that he can't weild his sword arm, all the way to "He plunges the sword into the woman...only to have the sword snap like a rotten twig." Again, the obviousness of the miracle is something that could be determined by the players at the beginning.

If the latter, then...same as above, except there's no need for another Unbelief check because the miracle has already been declared.

I also wouldn't call this "subjective reality", because the roll could be used to determine whether or not God was convinced that there was a good reason to intervene. These people put there lives on the line as a show of faith, God said, "Well! That's a nice change of pace, I guess affirming their faith is the least I could do..."

Granted, I'm not Clinton. I may be talking out my butt. But this is how I would run that, if I were to run the game.

[Tony Irwin]

Hi Clinton, here's a great one for you:

John 12:27-36
"Now My soul is troubled. What should I say--'Father, save Me from this hour'? But that is why I came to this hour. Father, glorify Your name!" Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again!" The crowd standing there heard it and said it was thunder. Others said, "An angel has spoken to Him!" Jesus responded, "This voice came, not for Me, but for you..."

Do you feel your miracle system is going to help players create and explore these situations? Or do you feel it might be giving right answers for these situations to the players (where the right answer is your personal take on miracles). It's a genuine question - I don't know which. I also wanted to ask who you're designing it for. Is this a game that miracle believing christians would enjoy playing?

Thanks, I'm looking forward to finding out more.

Tony

[Arturo G.]

Hi everybody! I'm on my first steps posting in The Forge. I hope you will forgive me for any inconvenience.

I really like the idea, but I still see some problems.

1) Conceptually:
As timfire remarked previously Faith vs. Unbelief does not seem to be related to certain miracles.
In fact there are many situations where the signs of God are issued to "make people belief". Miracles are a divine intervention, and sometimes they are not driven by the belief or disbelief of people around or even affected by them. The protection miracles, like the lions tamming, could be a good example.

(Another interesting question that, given the premise, goes off topic is the different flavor of the miracles in the New and Old Testaments).


2) Mechanics:
Miracles work better with only believers near. That makes sense. But the effects, once the miracle is working affect everyone. Wouldn't this promote people praying for miracles in the intimacy of their believers community to affect outsiders? I can imagine weird extreme examples: A community praying on their shrine/sacred-place for the dissapearance of the whole Roman Empire.

BTW, was you planning to include any kind of control for the potential effects of the miracles in the mechanics? I mean to make praying for the collapse of the circus where believers are killed easier than praying for the disappearance of the Roman Empire?
Just playing with what is at the stake? A bidding method for credibility?

Cheers,
Arturo

[SirValence]

I have great difficulty in believing that an arbitrary mechanic can handle miracles for a game. Perhaps we have different notions of what a miracle is.

I don't believe that the Bible depicts prayer as a miracle-vending mechanism. Rather, a miracle occurs because God is using it to accomplish His ends. He may indeed grant a miracle in response to a devout request. He may perform a miracle without anyone asking for it. He may receive a devout request for a miracle and refuse, because He has other plans.

If I was running such a game, I would have to run God is an NPC with His own divine agenda. He directs the faithful to fulfill that agenda, and sometimes sends miracles to assist them. Sometimes He lets their prayers influence how He does this. Other times He does not. So it seems to me that any mechanic that would arbitrate the effects of miracles would have to be very similar to any mechanic that might be used to influence any other NPC into doing what the character wishes: it would have to take into account the NPC's agenda, and the character's relationship with the NPC (perhaps some sort of Faith attribute is in order).

If your game is based on the premise that miracles are a direct response to faith, rather than being granted by a divine persona, then none of this is necessary. However, I would assert that your game then drifts considerably from its source material.

- Carl Klutzke

[Doug Ruff]

Clinton,

Don't know if this is useful to you or not, but:

- What a person believes directly affects the way they perceive the world. This isn't just about religion: for example, when I see an object fall, I think about gravity. 2000 years ago, a 'scientifically' minded observer would have thought about the extra element of earth in the object making it sink to the ground.

- Putting this back into the context of your game, the fact that any miracles are open to interpretation means that whether or not they actually are miracles is unknowable.

- The interesting bit (for me, anyway) is how the miracle is 'invoked' in the first place. I think it's all about challenging the beliefs that are already there. Let's say that I believe the old guy is blind; that I cannot walk on water; that a dead man stays dead. To produce a miracle, you've got to challenge those beliefs. There's something provocative about early Christianity, something challenging and dangerous to the status quo. Which changed when Christianity became the status quo.

Is this the sort of thing you're trying to capture?

[Clinton R. Nixon]

- The interesting bit (for me, anyway) is how the miracle is 'invoked' in the first place. I think it's all about challenging the beliefs that are already there. Let's say that I believe the old guy is blind; that I cannot walk on water; that a dead man stays dead. To produce a miracle, you've got to challenge those beliefs. There's something provocative about early Christianity, something challenging and dangerous to the status quo. Which changed when Christianity became the status quo.

Is this the sort of thing you're trying to capture?

Doug wins! Early Christianity is subversive and provocative, and that's exactly what I'm looking for. I really need to figure out how to state what I'm doing in regards to miracles better, because I keep seeing people mix it up here.

Let's see if I can talk this out again.

Rule 1: The actual effect of a miracle is not governed by fortune.

That is, you don't roll to have the voice of God speak or heal a blind man. That stuff just happens - or doesn't happen, depending on perception. In other words, no "miracle" in the game is certain. You can't have something happen that someone couldn't explain away, no matter how farfetched.

I need to work harder on how this is arbitrated. While the Polaris-style arbitration is good, I don't want to steal that mechanic for part of the game, and not for anything else.

Rule 2: The belief of characters is governed by drama, karma and fortune.

James says, "And this blind man is healed by the power of the Son." Roll Orate vs. the crowd's Unbelief and the blind man's Unbelief. (Karma and Fortune.) Anything you might have said to back up this miracle that hits a belief of the blind man's gives him a penalty die to his Unbelief roll. Same for the crowd.

Does that make sense at all? The reality of any divine intervention in the game is unknown.

Jonathan - you're totally helping.

[quozl]

I've thought about this and thought about it some more and I still don't get what the players are doing and why they're invoking miracles.  So, if you could, please lay it out for me.

What do the players do?
What do the characters do?