[The Shadow of Yesterday] Whoops, forgot this demo

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I knew I was missing something in my Booth play thread. This was the something, when I found a minute to sit in on a Shadow of Yesterday demo. As it turned out, not enough minutes, so I'm not sure how useful this post will be. But it was unfair to leave Clinton out, so here goes.

He's run this scenario in many forms, or bits and pieces of it, for quite a while. In the bit we ran, two humans have been captured by ratkin in a ruined city, and the ratkin are divided regarding what to do with them. One of them, Squall, is a vicious scheming militant, and the leader, Black Paws, is kind of a Neville Chamberlain rat. The humans are very nice people.

I demanded to play Squall. I like him. I wanted to play him a lot like Tim Roth plays the heavy in the remake of Planet of the Apes. Clinton tried to stop me for some reason, but I held onto the character sheet and made a Squall face at him. The two humans were assigned to the newcomer players, someone else got a ratkin guard guy (Rob NJ, was that you?) who had "woefully torn between the two leaders" written all over him, and Clinton played Black Paws.

In the first few rolls of our play time, I got a bad feeling. As usual, Fudge dice give a solid bell curve around your character's score, which in practice becomes whiffy (I don't perceive 50-50 as very successful). H'm, I thought, did Clinton screw the pooch in redesigning the game? Then I remembered that the real point of Shadow of Yesterday is to get your bonus points going, so I spent a few dice from my pools, bought off a Key and bought a new Secret, and similar stuff, and things started to happen. I didn't roll very well, but things stopped being whiffy.

That's an important, if simple lesson for this game, and it extends to Clinton's GMing preferences as well. This is a game about doing stuff, because the rules are all about the character getting better and more interesting through play. Proactivity is a given, even to achieve basic levels of success-probabilities. Hit that groove, and The Shadow of Yesterday is your huckleberry.

The two folks playing the humans did not hit that groove. They didn't even see it. They were boring as ditchwater and announced stuff like "I look down the corridor again." Clinton had to coax them into any sort of actual announcements regarding finding one another and/or escaping one word at a time, and their rolls were predictably whiffing because no points/pools were backing them. I was going into dingo-dog Sorcerer mode, where if someone goes "uh um uh," everyone else just shrugs and ignores them.

At the moment, I was sort of annoyed at what I perceived as Clinton's partisanship, as it seemed like he wanted the "good humans and good rats" to succeed, but I realize now what that was about - he was reasonably trying to get the passive players into it, as they were, after all, the customers of the moment. And the guy playing the guard ratkin was heroically pulling his weight. But whatever they did, these two just stared like little lumps of oatmeal with raisins for eyes. I was very much sympathizing with Squall as a character, by this point. Fuckin' humans, what good are they; kill these two and eat their bodies, squeak-squeak!

Well, as it turns out, I wasn't there for long. My lunch appointment came by, and I was really hungry, so I had to go. However, this wasn't a boon after all, because just before then, Lisa Padol sat down with us and took over Black Paws. Goody! I enjoy yanking Lisa's chain, and did all sorts of horrible stuff like buying off one of my Keys and getting a really nasty assassination-type Key, planning on swinging right in and killin' Black Paws dead, human-lover, take that! Lisa was a little taken aback upon sitting down and discovering that her character had a big bullseye painted on her, and I was slavering away with blood in my eye. The stage was set for some edgy play, as Lisa was just a-burning with the chance to play "against" me (she didn't know this, but I saw the look in her eye right back - just what I wanted to see). But as I say, I had to take off.

How did that scenario turn out, Lisa and Clinton, and guy who played the guard? And on the off chance the two other folks happen to be frequenting the Forge, what did you make of it? 

Best,
Ron

[Lisa Padol]

Well, as it turns out, I wasn't there for long. My lunch appointment came by, and I was really hungry, so I had to go. However, this wasn't a boon after all, because just before then, Lisa Padol sat down with us and took over Black Paws. Goody! I enjoy yanking Lisa's chain, and did all sorts of horrible stuff like buying off one of my Keys and getting a really nasty assassination-type Key, planning on swinging right in and killin' Black Paws dead, human-lover, take that! Lisa was a little taken aback upon sitting down and discovering that her character had a big bullseye painted on her, and I was slavering away with blood in my eye. The stage was set for some edgy play, as Lisa was just a-burning with the chance to play "against" me (she didn't know this, but I saw the look in her eye right back - just what I wanted to see). But as I say, I had to take off.

How did that scenario turn out, Lisa and Clinton, and guy who played the guard? And on the off chance the two other folks happen to be frequenting the Forge, what did you make of it?

I'm afraid it pretty much ended when you took off. Pity we didn't have just a couple more minutes -- you'd managed to nudge me out of "Um, what do I roll again" mode and into "Blood!" mode. In a good way.

-Lisa

[Ron Edwards]

Yeah, I was really enjoying that, again, in the good way. Oh well. GenCon - too many things to do.

Best,
Ron

[Callan S.]

That's an important, if simple lesson for this game, and it extends to Clinton's GMing preferences as well. This is a game about doing stuff, because the rules are all about the character getting better and more interesting through play. Proactivity is a given, even to achieve basic levels of success-probabilities. Hit that groove, and The Shadow of Yesterday is your huckleberry.

Wha? *Blank look in eyes*

In a nutshell, the system isn't enjoyable to use when your not inspired?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Callan,

Take this as one man's view based on limited play experience.

It seems to me that playing a Shadow of Yesterday character just using the skill values on one's sheet would be a boring exercise in whiffery.

You need to spend points from your Pools and do the stuff which gets those Pools refreshed. You also need to do stuff that gets you XP in small, and medium doses, which necessarily means doing some pretty definite stuff. You also need to do stuff that gets you XP in big honking doses, which means a major shift in goals and perhaps even personality. You also need to get a bunch of gift dice goin' around the table. And finally, you need to spend those XP for some whacked-out game-affecting stuff.

This is not the same as many games. You could play TROS without ever using Spiritual Attributes, or HeroQuest without ever using Hero Points. I would find such play mind-numbingly uninteresting, personally, but the systems would indeed give you solid outcomes, plenty of successes, and plausible results. However, do this with The Shadow of Yesterday and you are condemning yourself to "look, balls-up again" play for some time. Do the reward-system stuff, though, and you will be a very busy little goblin or whoever, with lots and lots of powered-up rolls.

Or so I see it, anyway.

Best,
Ron

[Callan S.]

Heya again,

It seems to me that playing a Shadow of Yesterday character just using the skill values on one's sheet would be a boring exercise in whiffery.

So...why are they there then?

TROS without spiritual attributes is a 'chess like' entertainment, I think. It has a valuable game function even without the SA's. What is the function of these skills, if they are just wiff o rama by themselves?

It looks like the new players saw them, thought 'this is here for some game purpose' and tried to use them because of that.

[Ron Edwards]

Callan ...

Moderate your posting tone, please.

Do not "So ... then?" me or anyone else. This is not a sophomore debate team.

Best,
Ron

[Callan S.]

Tone in my head was a provocative one akin to "So, you've got a combat system in your game about award winning photography...do you need that to achieve the games goals?", but looking at it now it could just as easily read as "Gotcha, bitch!". Hmm, great, not provocative, just annoying. Mental note for the future on that one. At least I didn't bring up god damn narrativism again, eh? :)

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Hey,

To answer your question (and correct Ron a little), it's not a boring exercise in whiffery. It is, however, definitely weighted so the values on the sheet will almost always give you the same result +/- 1. That is, if you have no skill with something, and you don't use pools or secrets or get gift dice or whatever, you will most likely fail. If you have any skill whatsoever, you will most likely succeed, getting the same success result plus or minus one every time. If you challenge someone better than you, you'll probably fail - again, if you don't use all the tools it gives you to win.

[Larry L.]

"So, you've got a combat system in your game about award winning photography...do you need that to achieve the games goals?", but looking at it now it could just as easily read as "Gotcha, bitch!".

An RPG about award-winning photography, with a combat-style resolution mechanic? I am so going to make that game. Tentative title is "Gotcha, bitch!"

(I'll decide if I'm serious in the morning.)

Clinton, I'd like to know if Ron's characterization of Black Paws as "a Neville Chamberlain rat" seems fair to you.

[Callan S.]

Hi Clinton,

Thanks for the extra details! So you build on the basic rolls, with skills, secrets, gift dice, etc. I think what I want to ask about is, what can play consist of for you if your not currently inspired enough to pursue an idea which will get you these things? Ron seems to be using the system aptly because he's had an inspiration and come up with an idea. He's then pursues that mechanically. What does someone pursue mechanically if they haven't as yet been inspired and don't have an idea?


Larry: Heh heh, ya made me laugh! Made me think too...what was that movie called? "Best in show"? About fanatic owners of pets and their weirdness. Now if you made an RPG about dog shows, "Gotcha, bitch!" would make one hell of a title!

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Callan,

Play without inspiration is, um, no less fun than in any other system. Your question seems to be, "what's play like if I'm not excited about it?" There's not a system that's going to give you more than a mediocre experience if you're not excited about it. I guess TSOY without inspiration feels like simpler, less random D&D. I've never played without being excited about it.

Larry,

Ron's portrayal of Squall totally made Black Paws out to be a "Neville Chamberlain" type rat. She could be played differently, though.

[Callan S.]

I'm grasping a bit here, but what I mean is that you can play TROS in a chess like way, if your not otherwise inspired. And you can enjoy the chess element so much that it might kick start your creative juices to think of something to pursue or push for. The same with D&D, it can be played chess like, until you sort of pick up a vibe from the mechanical play and run with it. It's sort of like free associating (from the mechanical results) until you form something cool.

Side note: The funny thing is, the games I play usually give me this vibe from chess like play...and then I have absolutely nowhere system wise, to express it.

[Callan S.]

Oh, thought of an actual play account. I was playing a PC called Thrud in a warhammer fantasy game. There was this bad guy called Roshe the cord. My character was pretty damn burly, but when this bastard turns up, he wraps the cord around my throat and I can't roll my way out for the life of me! Latter on, it happened again. This really pushed some buttons in me and I got to really hate the bastard.