Have I got the math of the economy right?

[TonyLB]

It seems to me that, since the producer only gets back half of spent fan-mail as more budget, there is a statistically finite amount of budget available for an episode.  In fact, twice the original budget (The first budget gets returned 50% to the producer, then that 50% gets halved again, etc.:  1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ...  = 2).

Now I wouldn't be at all surprised if the limit is purely theoretical, because people just don't have such rockin' games that the Protagonists Fan-Mail that much, and the Producer spends that much.  I'm just trying to figure out:  Do I have the basic idea right?  That it is theoretically possible to run entirely out of resources?

[dyjoots]

Do I have the basic idea right?  That it is theoretically possible to run entirely out of resources?

As far as I can tell.

[Matt Wilson]

Yes. It's kind of an hourglass that way. If your resources are dwindling, you know it's time to bring things to a close.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

As Producer, I very frequently max out all my rolls during an episode. And we have lots and lots of rolls, too, not just a couple per episode. (Notice that all my games have used dice, not cards. I'm in transition to the New Way.)

If the players didn't use Fanmail, then all my tokens would simply be gone, fairly soon. I'd just spend'em out, conflict by conflict. They're a fast-disappearing resource.

What giving and using Fanmail does, is return them to the Producer at a 50% average rate, as you have said. However, the effect is to slow down the disappearance rate - extending play, rather than shortening it. The more Fanmail is given an utilized, the more play is extended.

So Tony, yes, your point is correct in that the total tokens in play should be diminishing. But your inference, that it doesn't run out because people don't play sufficiently intensely, is incorrect.

Best,
Ron

[Yokiboy]

So Tony, yes, your point is correct in that the total tokens in play should be diminishing. But your inference, that it doesn't run out because people don't play sufficiently intensely, is incorrect.

I have to back up Ron on this, we burn through both the budget and fan mail each session of PtA without any issues. We play it like Matt suggests, when we see the Budget starting to disappear, we all aim to end the episode.

It works out great in practise. Ron's also right that the players quickly figure out that the more Fan Mail they award the longer the episode will run, and if they're enjoying themselves it pays to reward more Fan Mail. It's a beautiful thing.

TTFN,

Yoki

[TonyLB]

Ron and Yoki: It sounds like you're talking about "resources running out" in a different sense than I am.

Way number one:  Resources are considered to have run out when the producers bowl of Budget Dice is empty, no matter how much is in the Audience pool, or how much Fan Mail is in player's hands.  Under this formulation, awarding and spending fan-mail staves off the end of the resources by keeping the Budget pool full.

Way number two:  Resources are considered to have run out only when the Budget Dice are gone, the Audience pool is gone, and everybody has spent all their Fan Mail.  Under this formulation, awarding and spending fan-mail speeds the end of the resources, by keeping the economy pumping.

I was talking about resources running out in the second way.  Are you guys talking about resources running out in the first way?  Because I ran out of budget dice half-way through my session last night, and I just notified the other players of that fact.  "You can make conflicts against me, if you like, but my response is going to be feeble and unchallenging.  Plus, you've got a huge pile of problems between the characters, so why you'd be giving me grief I can't imagine."  Then I sat back and watched the fireworks for another hour.  It was a hoot.

[Ron Edwards]

No, Tony. This is another of famous Tony/Forge communication barriers that seems to spring up half the time. We are making a point that is very important, and you're not seeing it.

We are indeed talking about your #2. The whole thing, all the currency, every Token, whether you call it Budget, Audience Pool, or Fanmail. All of it. Yes, it runs out.

It will run out slower if the players are more enthusiastic about awarding Fanmail. That's all.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Wilson]

"You can make conflicts against me, if you like, but my response is going to be feeble and unchallenging.  Plus, you've got a huge pile of problems between the characters, so why you'd be giving me grief I can't imagine."

Hey Tony:

The producer is involved in every conflict, no matter what. It's impossible to have a conflict in the game without the producer, since budget is what determines the difficulty of getting the stakes.

[TonyLB]

Ah!  Interesting.  I see that, rereading the rules.  Everyone compares against the Producer.  Gotcha.

So, in my game, lots of the conflicts evolved (in narration) to be player vs. player.  We resolved them by our (wrong) interpretation of the rules, letting players directly compare their success totals.  Is there a better way to handle them?

[Darren Hill]

I'm curious about this too. I'm thinking of situations where two players have opposed goals (they are opposing each other, after all) and both beat the producer. I know this has come up on the forum before, but I'm still unsure what happens.

[Matt Wilson]

Ah!  Interesting.  I see that, rereading the rules.  Everyone compares against the Producer.  Gotcha.

So, in my game, lots of the conflicts evolved (in narration) to be player vs. player.  We resolved them by our (wrong) interpretation of the rules, letting players directly compare their success totals.  Is there a better way to handle them?

My suggestion for any conflict where there's serious opposition between characters is to avoid making the stakes be specifically about the actual physical altercation.

Think of it like this: there's a contest between them, and there's also what they really want. Like if it's a fight, maybe your protagonist's goal is actually "look like a tough guy," because his or her issue is all about bravery. Maybe the guy fighting you has the stakes "impress the ladies who are watching it all" because his issue is about being in love with one of them. You can both get these stakes no matter who actually wins the fight.

It's not unlike Capes, if I dare say so. "Prove who's the better superhero" doesn't necessarily mean that your hero has to be the one who defeats the villain in order to win that conflict.

[Ron Edwards]

I was rude. Sorry, Tony.

Best,
Ron

[TonyLB]

It's cool, but thanks.  That makes me feel better.

I really need to learn to elaborate when I think I understand what someone's saying, rather than just say, "Yeah, but also...."  I totally understand your reaction.  Sorry about that.  I'll be working on the problem.