I Hate Dice

[Chasuk]

I've been playing rpg's of one sort or another since I was 19, and I'm 44 now, so that makes me a fairly experienced player.   However, generally, I hate games which require dice.  If rpg's didn't require dice, I would be in heaven.  This means, of course, that I prefer the deduct-from-a-set-number-of-points style of character creation.  Usually, in my own experience, this puts me in the minority.

Does the majority really prefer dice-based character creation, or have I been hanging out with the wrong people?  If I am correct in my observation of what the majority prefer, can anyone offer a reasonable theory as to why this might be?

When I ask players around here, the answers I get amount to: "It's harder to get uber characters with point-deducting systems," which I translate into: "It's harder to tweak/cheat with point-deducting systems."

If I had an accurate theory/model (other than the above) as to why die-character-creation is more popular, I might be able to figure out ways of enhancing the attractiveness of my favorite method, the deduct-from-a-set-number-of-points style of character creation.

Any theories?

[planetouched]

That's a strange thing... I thought everybody and his dog loathed dice-based character creation. Well at least it's the case for my gaming group, and I believe that here in France most gamers don't like the randomness of this type of creation.
And isn't it a reason why, for instance, there are now a few deduct-from-a-set-number-of-points styles of character creation in D&D?

[Bankuei]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forge!

Here's a question- are you planning on designing a game with point build character generation, or are you looking to prove an argument with someone you know?  Because, honestly, the latter is an opinion war and there is no "reasonable" way to really convince anyone against what they like.

Overall, I've found that people like random rolls for character generation based on the joy of raw gambling.  It's a thrill to roll a good character, and a let down to roll a bad one.  Just the same, I think most games do it out of habit of tradition rather than a genuine design purpose.  If you look some of the most popular games out there (White Wolf games & GURPS, to name a couple) use point build systems.

Chris

[Valamir]

Chasuk...what games have you played?

Far from being "more popular" there are hardly any games out there (and fewer yet designed recently) that use dice predominantly in character creation.  You have to go all the way back to the 80s to find many examples of games which use it other than D&D, and D&D was an intentional throw-back to the 80s...

So I'm really not sure where your question is coming from.

Nor am I sure how prefering point based character creation gets translated into hating games which use dice...does that include using dice for resolution mechanics as well?  I fail to see how those are related.

[Chasuk]

That's a strange thing... I thought everybody and his dog loathed dice-based character creation. Well at least it's the case for my gaming group, and I believe that here in France most gamers don't like the randomness of this type of creation.
And isn't it a reason why, for instance, there are now a few deduct-from-a-set-number-of-points styles of character creation in D&D?

Hmm.  Maybe I really have been playing wih the wrong crowds, then.  Are there now deduct-from-a-set-number-of-points styles of character creation in D&D?  I've been out of the loop with vis-a-vis roleplay, precisely because of the randomness of the character creation process (and other reasons, but that's another subject).

Thanks for your input!

[Chasuk]

Here's a question- are you planning on designing a game with point build character generation, or are you looking to prove an argument with someone you know?  Because, honestly, the latter is an opinion war and there is no "reasonable" way to really convince anyone against what they like.

Okay, you caught me: I didn't want to confess that I had any aspirations to design a game (as I really hate to fail in front of groups of people), but that is my desire, yes.  I've played for a long while, but never paid much attention to the rules.  I generally take a nap while everyone one else is rolling characters and disputing trivia, because I play for the puzzles and the storyline ONLY.  Call me the Anti-Rules-Nazi.  Ideally, I would like a character creation system which makes it possible for a player to create a character in 5 minues, max, whilst simultaneously making it possible for the more  minutiae-obsessed player to tweak and customize his character for days, if that was his/her desire.

I'm not fond of re-inventing the wheel, so is there a character creation system which already matches my requirements?

Gambling bores me to tears; Yahtzee to contemplations of suicide (I am exaggerating the latter claim, not the former).  The tedium of either pursuit overwhelms me, and I transfer this near-aggression of mindlessly juggling dice to die-based character creation systems.

The reason that I was asking for theories regarding the popularity of one system versus the other was to help me devise a system which might be attractive enough to pursuade my peers away from those bloody dice!  We congregate to play at noon, but I'm lucky if we have started by nightfall.

Pardon my hyperbole.  I just find this situation very frustrating, and I'm looking for a way to continue playing rpg's without destroying my sanity.  :-)

[jmac]

I think random element in character creation makes playing the very character more challenging. playing convincingly some shithead those dice prepared for you - is clearly a challenge :)) lots of drama too :)

It also cuts playing before the game actually starts.

[contracycle]

I'm not fond of re-inventing the wheel, so is there a character creation system which already matches my requirements?

OK.  Get HeroQuest and a comb, 'cos its gonna blow your hair back.

Character creation works roughly like this: you get some attributes that arise from your culture, organised in a number of tiers.  But then, you define the character by writing a 100-word paragraph describing the character.  So you might say something like "Bob is tall and brown haired..." etc yada yada.  Then you come along and underline all the definitive terms in your 100 words: so Tall and Brown Haired are both underlined, and become attributes written on the character sheet.

Thats probably the most radical actual system of character creation around at the moment, completely detached from anything other than description.  But other games use other techniques and point-buy systems are quite widespread these days.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Welcome to the Forge, Chasuk! Do you have a real name we can call you by?

I think you're really gonna like it here. Your questions are the tip of the iceberg. Folks here have been discussing issues like your for years and have generated some pretty solid theory. Up at the top of the window there is a link to the Artlices. There's a lot of good stuff there and some is kinda obsolete. The important thing to read about is the Big Model, particularly GNS: Gamism, Narrativism, and Simulationism. The words don't mean what they seem to mean — that's the glory of jargon, right there — so don't be put off by any comprehension you have of the concepts that you've gotten from your, you know, reading comprehension skills, until you're read an article or two on the subject. You can discuss and ask questions in the Theory forum.

It sounds like you're making some assumptions about the nature of your game design that you'll be relieved to discover aren't necessary, but I'd like to hear more about your game. Of course, that's outside of the scope of this thread, so you'd probably want to post and ask some questions over in Indie Game Design.

You should probably also play some games made by Forge folks. Once you've said what you're after, it'll be easier to give you a reading list to steal fr—er, be inspired by.

I think you're going to like it here.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Oh! I just saw another thread. You already read that stuff.

Yeah, give examples: what you've experienced, what you want, etc.

[John Kim]

I've played for a long while, but never paid much attention to the rules.  I generally take a nap while everyone one else is rolling characters and disputing trivia, because I play for the puzzles and the storyline ONLY.  Call me the Anti-Rules-Nazi.  Ideally, I would like a character creation system which makes it possible for a player to create a character in 5 minues, max, whilst simultaneously making it possible for the more  minutiae-obsessed player to tweak and customize his character for days, if that was his/her desire.

I'm not fond of re-inventing the wheel, so is there a character creation system which already matches my requirements?

I think what technically best fits what you describe is a template system.  This was first used in Star Wars (1987), and later used in Shadowrun and other games.  Basically, you have a dozen or two generic character types which are almost fully pre-made, with some options which can be adjusted in five minutes.  So you can either pick a template and go, or you can use the design system to build a character from scratch.  I've got a short essay on Class and Template Mechanics.  The only times I've seen character creation take literally under five minutes is with templates.  

On the other hand, given your anti-rules stance, you might want to look at some games with freeform stats.  These aren't lack of rules, but rather rules with a different flavor than you might be used to.  Gareth (contracycle) mentioned HeroQuest.  To sample some free games of the sort, you might look at The Pool or FATE.  With freeform stats, you can define whatever stats you want for your character.  This tends to take longer than five minutes, but is still potentially much quicker than a complex system like D&D.  You can go with ideas which are off-the-cuff, or spend a long time pondering exactly how to define it.  

The reason that I was asking for theories regarding the popularity of one system versus the other was to help me devise a system which might be attractive enough to pursuade my peers away from those bloody dice!  We congregate to play at noon, but I'm lucky if we have started by nightfall.

A question:  do they enjoy themselves?  I ask this because if you want to move to a less dice-focused system, it's not going to help if it is something they don't enjoy.  If you want to keep playing with them, you have to look at the things which both you and they enjoy.  If they really are enjoying themselves and you want to do something that they won't enjoy as much, then very likely you should look at playing with new people.  

[ewilen]

Are there now deduct-from-a-set-number-of-points styles of character creation in D&D?

In the D&D Third Edition  DM Guide, there are a couple of non-diced character generation methods offered as alternatives to the standard "4d6 drop the low die". There are also race/class packages in the Player's Handbook which could in theory speed up character generation. But that still doesn't mean that D&D is a good fit for your needs, if you're looking for storytelling and puzzle solving.

[Sydney Freedberg]

I used to hate dice as an obstacle to narration (my favorite college GM rolled a whole sheet of random numbers for everyone and checked them off as needed to as not to intrude mechanics into the session); now I think they can be a neat way to inspire more interesting narration ("I rolled THAT? Uh, what could've happened? Oh!"). But, y'know, it totally depends on how the dice are used.

My bet (yay, gambling): You don't hate dice (unless you have a profound aversion to tiny Platonic solids?). You hate the way you've seen dice used.

But! The real answer to that will only come out in a description of Actual Play, so, I'll wait for that.

[Mike Holmes]

On the other hand, given your anti-rules stance, you might want to look at some games with freeform stats.  

To take John's comments to their logical conclusion, have you looked at "complete freeform" as well? That is playing with people who's only rules are "don't trample on each other's narration" or something like that? It's a very common way for people to play these days, especially online. It's just that that community and ours doesn't tend to overlap much.

Mike

[pells]

Okay, you caught me: I didn't want to confess that I had any aspirations to design a game (as I really hate to fail in front of groups of people), but that is my desire, yes.  I've played for a long while, but never paid much attention to the rules.  I generally take a nap while everyone one else is rolling characters and disputing trivia, because I play for the puzzles and the storyline ONLY

Why don't you just work on a story and let the DMs use the system they want ?
If you design a game, do you have to design rules while all you care about is narrative ?
I don't like (rolling) dices either. For character creation or combat resolution for that matter. But some of my players do like it... depending on who I'm playing with, I'll be using one system or an another. But, I would still be playing the same story.
So, if you give me a good story, I would go for it and let my players decide on what system they want.
Am I the only one interested in this kind of product, not caring about the system ? Would it possible to just sell a story ?