*
*
Home
Help
Login
Register
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 22, 2014, 10:27:32 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Forum changes: Editing of posts has been turned off until further notice.
Search:     Advanced search
275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4283 Members Latest Member: - otto Most online today: 57 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
Pages: [1]
Print
Author Topic: 'Game', 'simulation' and DitV  (Read 4257 times)
droog
Member

Posts: 263


« on: October 14, 2005, 09:19:28 AM »

On a certain forum, Vincent wrote:
Quote
If you mean a 100% narrativist game to have no game and no simulation, Dogs in the Vineyard surely is not one.

Any chance somebody could expand on this? The way I read it is, yes, DitV does have a game in it (fun dice mechanic) and it does have simulation (though to my understanding it's actually Colour).
Logged

AKA Jeff Zahari
Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
Member
*
Posts: 16490


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2005, 09:33:18 AM »

Hello,

When these terms are used just to float in space, then they are useless.

Context problem 1: don't get obsessed with whether a game has any Creative Agenda "in" it. You'll wrap yourself up in a wet sheet that way.

Context problem 2: never mind what someone said in an isolated sentence in an isolated thread. That was a dialogue or small discussion. Dipping it out and trying to blow it up into a generalized point is worthless; you're presenting a vague constellation of possible interpretations.

Specific problem 1: "game" can mean any damn thing anyone wants, at any time. If you want it to mean fun dice mechanics, then it does, and you do that in playing DitV. If you want it to mean Gamism (competition, status on the line, Step On Up), then playing DitV tends to be less effective and satisfying for that purpose, compared to many or even most other RPGs. If you want it to mean sex with donkeys, then playing DitV will, to my knowledge, prove very ineffective and unsatisfying for that purpose. If you want it to mean "the sky is blue," then playing DitV will not verify or satisfy this meaning, although the sky is, indeed, blue (cue long discussion over whether DitV is therefore "wrong").

See what I mean? There's no discussion-point here.

Specific problem 2: Exploration is not Simulationism. Exploration, including Color, is absolutely necessary for role-playing as an activity. Simulationism is an aesthetic priority, an agenda. This is a very basic issue in understanding anything in my essays, so it's kind of awful/horrifying to see it mangled here.

Best,
Ron
Logged
droog
Member

Posts: 263


« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2005, 09:38:55 AM »

I get it. It's as I thought. Thank you.
Logged

AKA Jeff Zahari
lumpley
Administrator
Member
*
Posts: 3453


WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2005, 09:48:35 AM »

Yeah. I have no desire to be correcting anybody about Big Model terms in, y'know, a certain forum.

Dogs is great for narrativist play, if you define narrativist play as we do here. Not so great, necessarily, if you define it any other way.

Droog, if you want to discuss it further, awesome, I'm up for that.

-Vincent
Logged
droog
Member

Posts: 263


« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2005, 02:51:11 AM »

Nnnooo... that's all right. I just hope I haven't hurt your sales.
Logged

AKA Jeff Zahari
lumpley
Administrator
Member
*
Posts: 3453


WWW
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2005, 05:58:57 AM »

Oh no, I can't even imagine that you did. But this is pretty far from GNS now - I'll see you over there!

-Vincent
Logged
Pages: [1]
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Oxygen design by Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!