[Acadine] - proposing homebrew system here

[red coyote]

Hi all - a new poster to the system here.

I'm designing an rpg (d10 based) but would like comments on the magic system I have in mind.  What I am proposing is rune based magic system - players may either "cast" each rune separately or combine them to form a spell chain.  The spellcaster takes his spellcasting dice (equal to his skill - a la Whitewolf style) and rolls them against the target's willpower attribute.  The target takes his willpower dice (equal to willpower attribute) and rolls them against the total rune level of the spell.  The spellcaster takes the targets successes and subtracts them from his own - if he has any left over these are called the "net successes".

• Each rune has a stamina cost which essentially is a magical drain test the spellcasters must make after casting a spell.  The spellcaster takes his willpower dice and rolls them them against the total rune level of the spell.  Each success will negate one point of stamina cost.  Once a player runs out of stamina he will start injurying himself [physical damage].
• Numbers range from 0 - 8 for everything in the game whether it is attributes, skills, or difficulty numbers.  Thus the most powerful spells of the game have a total rune level of 8.  Four is the average ability score or target number in the game
• Primary effects are if the rune is used alone or at the start of a spellchain.  Secondary effects are only used in conjunction with a spellchain.

For instance:

Fire rune:
Stamina cost - 3
Rune level - 2
Primary/Secondary:  Target takes X damage where X is equal to the net successes after target makes willpower test.

Air rune:
Stamina cost - 2
Rune level - 2
Primary:  Create a whirlwind (5' radius) that can pick up and throw around light objects (up to 10 lbs).
Secondary:  Add radial effect (5')

Thus a player can simply cast a simple fire rune for a minimal amount of damage or combine together to make stronger magical attacks.

"Firebolt"
Total Stamina cost - 9
Total Rune level - 6
Fire - Fire - Fire
Target takes 3X damage where X is equal to the net successes after target makes willpower test.

"Fireball"
Total Stamina cost - 7
Total Rune level - 6
Fire - Air - Air
Targets within 10' of point of origin take X damage where X is equal to the net successes after targets makes willpower tests.

"Whirlwind"
Total Stamina cost - 8
Total Rune level - 8
Air - air - air - air
Create a whirlwind (20' radius) that can pick up and throw around light objects (up to 10 lbs).

I want to know what people think about this.
1)  Is it original enough?  I don't want to come off as copying what others may have already done.
2)  Does this have potential?  Is it too complicated for the average gamer, too easy to munchkin out, etc.  Please feel free to point out any potential hazards I may have overlooked.
3)  I intend to create a rune list comprising of eight elements with each element having 8 different runes.  Thus I will have 64 runes for people to play around with.  I was originally going to have spellcasters start out with a number of runes equal to their spellcasting skill (so up to 8).  Is the number of runes I have too many or too little?

Any other questions or comments can be sent to me through private message here or my email address.  I appreciate all input.  If I need to explain anything else further let me know.

[red coyote]

I have browsed other topics and noticed people prefer to use actual names here.  I also noticed the EDIT button seems to be, uh, not working.  So I'll start of by introducing myself.

My name is Michael and have been gaming for about 10 years now.  For the past year and a half I have been putting some time into producing a homebrew RPG called Acadine.  It is influenced by games I have read and played such as D&D, Whitewolf, Shadowrun, and Riddle of Steel to name a few.  Its mechanics are fairly straightforward and simple as most people seem to grasp them on the first try.  I am actually quite proud of it and once I actually get it formatted for printing I would like to offer it up for playtesting.  However as I am currently working 60-72 hours a week I think that is not coming anytime soon.

By the way if anyone knows anyone in SE Iowa who wants to game let me know.  I just moved here and lost my previous group.  :(

[talysman]

hi, Michael, welcome to the Forge!

I don't think "is it original enough?" is a question anyone can really answer effectively. original enough for what? to avoid people comparing your system to others? I would say don't worry about that. sure, the basic concept of string magic words (runes) together to create spells has been done a couple times, but what really matters is: does the magic system fit with the rest of the system? does it emphasize what you want emphasized? does it encourage the kind of play you want?

as far as complexity goes: it looks like you have a high handling time, with three die rolls for every spell (caster skill vs. target willpower, target willpower vs. rune level, and caster willpower vs. rune level.) that's a lot of die rolling going on, with subtractions from various numbers being the next step. if that's more die rolling than for other kinds of actions, it's going to make rune magic one of the central concepts in your game. if that's your goal, that's ok. if the rest of your system has even more complexity than this, then you may have a problem, because everything will have a high handling time.

do you have too many or too few runes? I don't know. "too many" means you have runes that share the same niche, or rune casters need to learn too many runes before they become effective. "too few" means there are things you want the magic system to do that are not currently possible. either one is going to require you to scan your list for omissions or duplications, work up several test characters and test spell chains to see how it works, and actually playtest your game; if you have too many or too few runes, you'll notice.

the best I can do for you on that third question is to ask you an important question: what is the reason for having eight groups of eight runes each? if it's just because it's symmetric, you might want to reconsider. if it's because of something in your setting or color,, then that's ok, as long as you're happy with the results.

[red coyote]

The whole 8 thing is what a lot of the setting is about.  It's hard to explain without giving the entire backstory.  Essentially its part of the mythology and religion of the setting.

As to put more information to my questions:
1 - What I am asking is this EXACTLY like system A does it or 90% like system B?  I would like to put something out I came up with on my own and not look like it was stolen from someone else.

2 - About the high handling time - No, the rest of the game is not like that.  Usually just one or two rolls.  Like any system it will have its learning curve but from my experience of playtesting most people have picked up on it right away.  However, that was with me in the room to explain - that's why I am going to put the rules in a nice format and see if some of my gaming buddies can make sense of the system without me there.  Once I get input from them I will try to put out a "final" copy.  Back to the dice rolls - I will admit that might seem high but people don't have to wait for one person to finish rolling before they start their own.  I mean the spellcaster can tell the GM that he's casting a level 6 rune and both he and the GM can roll at the same time.  The player can also roll for drain while the rest of the party or GM resolves their actions.

I must ask though if three rolls are considered "bad"?  Should I cut the dice rolls by one by simply having a fixed drain value for each symbol (no rolling to reduce it)?  That might speed things up a bit.  Also easier to predict what will happen.

3 - Er, the last question is put the best.  It kind of goes hand in hand with the first one.  If my system resembles something else closely how does my actual count hold up?  I was also just wondering if that just sprung out at people as being unreasonably high or low for some reason. 

As I said before technically the number eight is in the metaplot.  However I can change the number of runes and/or metaplot to ease gameplay.  Also I am trying to make the system adaptable to other settings besides fantasy with few additional changes.  That way if people want to use it for sci-fi settings with psychics instead of magic, they should just be able to adapt to a few new rules rather than learning a whole new game engine.  For example I am writing another fantasy setting but this one is more about fate and astrology.  Thus I might replace the eight elements with seven others (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, and saturn).

Oh yeah, I was actually going to ask for advice on what runes people might want to see.  But I might take that up in a different post.  These are more of sample runes, to give people an idea of how they can be used together and separately.

One more thing - if this were in a gaming book, would this [magic system] intrigue you or repulse you?  A friend told me it depends on the player; that is, one with imagination might love it while someone else might like actual spell lists or the like.  So to resolve that problem I was going to make some sample spellchains up that people might find useful (eg "fireball").

Here's where I got the name for those interested.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/acadine.html
A sort of tongue in cheek reference.

[Saxon Douglass]

Okay I'm fonfused here - what is the difference between a rune and an element? You list both an air and fire rune yet that leavs me asking "what are the elements then"? I'd make it just 8 base runes in the world if i'm understanding this right. Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Good, Evil, and some other two opposing forces (in D&D they would be Law vs. Chaos but I don't know what you might use for your setting). Rune levels wouldn't be needed, the rune level would be equal to the number of runs in the combo. That means where 4 Fire runes is pretty awesome you'd need 8 for the same effect with this system. That would be a major re-write though and I'm only suggesting it because I don't get it currently.

It also depends on how defined you want the rules to be. Do you want the GM and player to agree on what should happen with certain combos or will they be given in the book? If they're given in the book how is this system different from just 64 D&D spells? I suppose what i'm asking is how do 8 sets of 8 runes actually make casting different from other systems?

One idea I had was you could only mix 2 runes in a given spell but you could "chain" spells to mix 2 runes then mix that rune with another (meaning you'd mix 3 total). Such a system would allow you to say This + This = That instead of This + This + This = That. Although a minor change it'll save on page space and allow some other tricks. Here is an example:

Water + Air = Mist
Water + Earth = Mud
Fire + Earth = Lava
Fire + Water = Steam
Air + Fire = Burning winds
Air + Earth = Geyser

That is with only 4 runes. Add in another 4 base ones and a mixing of those ones (like Mist + Air) and you get even more combos. Ofcourse all that still leaves you with the question of how defined the effects are. As it is currently 8 sets of 8 runes produces 64 spells with no real variance. If you're happy with what I call loose-magic then that provides 1000s but as it stands currently it's just a group of spells "disguised" as something more I think. I'm not trying to bash your work though, I always love runes and the basic concept is solid, I just don't see how this is superior to a list of spells as-is. Maybe making Primary, Secondary and Tertiary effects would work. Basically in every casting you choose a Primary & Secondary rune along with an Tertiary ones. Primary provides the main thing it does, Secondary addes a secondary effect and Tertiary just adds stuff like area of effect, distance, etc. With 8 runes (you mentioned 64 but I only see 8) that's a heck of alot (I can't do the math but I know it's alot). If you did make say 64 runes you'd have ALOT of spells! I mean you'd have thousands! It'd be atleast 64(runes) X 4(number you can have) X 3 (Pri, Sec & Ter) which is 768 not counting the spells that are less than 4 runes and stuff.

[Adam Cerling]

Hello, Michael!

You may find that any question phrased as an opinion poll does poorly at the Forge. Folks here enjoy analysis, and opinion polls can't be analyzed (at least, not without doing them scientifically, which Internet threads are not).

For example, here's a bit of mathematical analysis about your system:

If all the variables are the same (spellcasting dice, the opponent's willpower, and the rune level of the spell) then the chance of the spell being successful is slightly less than 50%. If I have 6 spellcasting dice and I cast a level 6 spell against a willpower 6 opponent, I will fail slightly more often than I succeed

Are those the kind of odds you want in that situation? A character who can only pull off his cool magic half the time tends to feel incompetent.

Of course, maybe that situation doesn't come up very often. If willpower is usually a lower number compared to the other two, that helps the odds quite a bit.

Is it original enough? The "spell chain" thing I have seen before in video games. The dice mechanic would be right at home in the Storyteller system. Air, Earth, Fire and Water have been featured in magic systems a bajillion times already. None of these facts says anything about whether your game is or is not worth playing.

Does this have potential? You haven't given enough information to go on, I'm afraid. Does it have potential to do what? What are your design goals for this game?

The mechanic is complicated, but I don't know what the "average gamer" is so I can't compare.

Complexity also introduces more opportunities to min-max. I'd even say this mechanic rewards min-maxing. Why shouldn't I, if I want my spellcaster to be effective?

Is the number of runes I have too many or too little? Talysman's answer puts it well. The number and the symmetry aren't as important as his points about "too many," "too few," and playtesting.

[mutex]

Yours is 90% like system B.

Actually, it's 90% like system C through Z, too.

That's okay.

What it seems like is you're trying to create an effect-driven magic system, similar to Hero, but with combinatory elements.   I see, you've even provided primary and secondary effects, which is exactly what I was going to suggest you use before I double-checked your examples and saw they were already provided :D

(Although I would recommend in the case of wind, allow to either increase the area/radius OR increase the strength (eg., 10lbs of weight lifted) per rune used)


Now, the most important thing you need to ask yourself is "Does this mechanism support the kind of gameplay you're expecting?"  I would imagine that you enjoyed the Shadowrun magic system, but were frustrated by its blandness and occasional lack of flexibility.  "Whaddya mean I can't have an enchanted flaming sword?! ", is what I asked my GM.

[Joe Zeutenhorst]

Hey Michael,

Regarding your point 2. I wouldn't say that having three die rolls for an action is bad, as long as it is making the game better to have the element of chance enter the process three times. If the dice are giving you something meaningful each time, roll 'em. If they aren't, don't. As previously mentioned, stacking three dice rolls on top of a action will tend to push it into the spotlight.

The "What it costs" stamina roll could be something important to the system, or not, depending on how everything works together. If the amount of stamina drained is not typically significant, I would move to a fixed drain value. Same with the willpower vs rune level roll. Willpower is already represented in the first spellcasting roll, and rune level should just increase the average net successes. Why not ditch the second roll entirely and just have rune level as a bonus to the spellcasting roll?

I dig magic word based spell systems. Check out The Shadow of Yesterday's Zu, which is a magical language where every word has a noun, verb and modifier form. For example, "Knife" means knife, cut and sharp. Saying the word magically produces a knife, commands someone to cut something, or makes something sharper. Donjon also has a magic word system. Both of these are basically free trait, though, not a HERO-esque list of combinable effects.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  You said you can chain runes, but the effects are VERY specific. Whirlwind and firebolt don't seem to have an intuitive way to combine?
   So, the way the system is presented here, you have to come up with scads of runes. If you took a step back and made the runes generic, then the power of creativity is in the hands of the players.
  Then you can just put Stamina/Rune Level
  Then each Rune could represent an effect. Fire could be Damage over Time, Air could be moving the target, Earch could be defense, Metal could be physical damage, etc...
  Good luck man!

[xenopulse]

Welcome to the Forge, Michael!

Let me first say that I love rune based magic.  The German Schwertmeister expansion for Das Schwarze Auge had mechanics where you would place three runes in a triangle, one for effect, one for path, one for target.  It furthers players' creativity to come up with interpretations of how these work together.  That's just one example of how other games handled runes.

Now, there are a couple of standard questions that people tend to ask around here, such as "What do the characters in the game do" and "what do the players do," etc.  I think the best way to go about exploring these is to ask you for two things:

First, let me know what really excites you about your game. What is it that, when you think about it, makes you think, "This is going to kick ass?"  Is it players having fun stringing runes together in innovative ways?  Is it playing powerful mages that can wipe out scores of enemies when you know the right tactics?  Is it addressing the issue of power in a world where every other character has a need and the players have to figure out who to help, which side to stand on, and how far to push themselves?

Second, once you figure that out, try to write up a manufactured example of play; a really good one.  If your game worked exactly like you imagine it, what would the players around the table say, when would they roll dice, how do they enjoy those kickass parts of your game?

Once you have those answers, measure them against your mechanics.  I see that you have a stamina check in there.  Is that because you think it's "realistic" (in terms of your specific setting), because it limits power gaming, because it gives tactical options by allowing to risk health for effect, or because it allows players to make a statement by pushing their mages toward death when they really want something to happen?  I think once you figure out your design goals and reasons, you'll be able to tweak things to your liking.

These are just additional thoughts to weigh the feedback above by.  E.g., three rolls for one spell, and a more than 50% chance of failure, seem high to me as well and could frustrate players.  But if your goal is to have magic be difficult and costly, that might still work.