The Forge Archives

Allright, I've done it.  I've gone and made a game system, and a setting.  I would put a year between now and I finishing it, that is, put enough of my own blood, sweat and tears into it so that I know it's good.

But that's the thing.  I will have put My All into the damn thing, and I don't want to get screwed.  And it's not that I don't trust the people wanting to create a company with their money and my game, but I don't want things to go awry.

So, I'll ask all the professionals, what should I expect when taking a hundred page draft and turning it into an edited, laid out game book?

Any horror stories in the land of indie publishing?

Hey there,

Horror stories galore. But I think that it's more important to know what you want to do with this game.

What would you like it to be, in terms of a physical object?

How would you like it to be sold?

Is this an ongoing business proposition for you, or a one-shot hobby deal, in which future success beyond seeing it on the shelves is important?

And finally, and most importantly (to me), is retaining full ownership a priority for you or not?

I am interested in knowing the answer to these questions at their minimum level of satisfaction - sure, any of us would like our game to be gloriously successful and financially rewarding, etc, etc. But what are you willing to settle for in terms of "real" success, in your terms?

Given a clear answer (and that means any answer, not just what would conform to my own preferences), I think the veterans here can help you a lot.

Best,
Ron

Physically, I think the game should be at or over two hundred pages.  I'm not enamored with magazine print color pages.  I want black and white.  I'd like a hard cover, but I'll run with laminated paperback.  Hard covers are for revisions.

But there's something that I want to find out about.  Will people be willing to pay thirty or more dollars for a bigger, hard cover book?  I want the thing to have heft, I really do.  I'm particularly attached to the Americanism that is 'You get what you pay for', and I think people disagree with slim, cheap books.

As far as methods of sale, if we have the capital, I'd just like to crank out however many copies of it you need to deliver to distributors; I'll sell .pdfs to get the cash if I have to.  This step, I know very little about.  What sort of selling methods are there?

It would not be a single project; the game engine is flexible and could be, and has been used to run other games, if it is specialized to suit.  I have been invited to work with what would amount to a new publishing company, but the degree of leverage I would have is not known to me.

Full ownership seems nice.  More importantly, I want final say on any games my system would be used in, as far as the system itself is concerned.  But it's a case-for-case thing.  I do want full ownership of my settings.

Success is not making a living, not for me, not from my game.  Success is having enough left over dough to make a second edition.  Success is having my name etched on the plaque of slightly famed names in gaming.

Hi Max,

Thanks for the reply, which definitely tells me what I needed to know. I have some good news and some bad news ...

The Good
A  200+ page game with nice covers (hard or soft), black and white interiors with good paper (50 lb), and generally excellent production quality and interior layout is exactly industry (or "industry") standard. Both the distribution-retail community and the customer community are more than happy to sell and buy a book that retails at about or just over $30, if it meets these standards.

Also, your statement regarding success is clear and to the point. Recovering your investment, with a little extra, is an excellent and reasonable goal. It can be done, people can do it, and several people who have done it with a grassroots game are active on this very forum.

The Bad
I seriously recommend that you learn more about game-industry distribution and also about how the publishing companies work. Check out these websites for lots of information about publishing.
Wizards Attic
GAMA

Several of your phrases worried me, so I'll toss in some comments from my own experience. I hope some others will chime in as well.

"Hard covers are for revisions."

You might want to re-consider your concept of a "revision" from the ground up. First of all, I recommend a hard cover. Small companies in particular need to express their high-end status, which you rightly perceive to validate them in the eyes of others. A hard cover is a good way to do this and it's worth the cost if other costs are kept down.

Second, don't count on a second printing of any kind. Many small companies think they've "sold out" when few if any customers have actually bought the book. For example, Sorcerer is almost gone from the Tundra warehouse - but hundreds of copies are probably still sitting in distributor warehouses. If I get all excited and print a second run, all I'm doing is backing up this end of the chain, with little hope of sales. Only if I'm assured of continuous retailer re-orders, will I print more copies.

So any decisions about what the second printing will look like, whether it's a second printing or a full "revision," whether it has a different physical format from the first printing, and so on - all these are premature concerns. Right now, making the initial product be the best it can possibly be is more important.

"if we have the capital, I'd just like to crank out however many copies of it you need to deliver to distributors"

No official print run quantity actually exists, nor any specific number required by distributors. The number you should print walks a fine line between however many you can afford to print and however many you can reasonably expect to sell. Print too much, and your profits still leave you in debt. Print too little, and you may fail to meet demand.

Years ago, people promoted the game to retailers, then used pre-orders to determine the size of their print runs. This is no longer valid, as for all intents and purposes pre-orders do not exist - retailers order when and if they know the book is in distributors' warehouses (and thus endorsed by the "industry" as well as not being a waste of their time). So now, that fine line I mentioned above is a very, very iffy thing.

Printing too little is probably the lesser of the two dangers. I suggest considering a print run of 1000-1500 books. This is small, but new printing technologies and policies make small print runs more affordable than they were a few years ago, even for traditional printers (so I'm not talking about print-on-demand). The more confident small companies print 3000, which is probably the reasonable ceiling. Most small companies over-print with runs of 5000 or higher, which is a recipe for disaster.

"I'll sell .pdfs to get the cash if I have to."

As the pioneer and arguably the expert on selling PDF versions of a role-playing game, I can tell you that this tactic is not valid. I made money selling Sorcerer and its supplements as PDFs, but that money did not produce my print budget for the book versions. A runaway success of a PDF-sale game will net you a few hundred bucks a year. To print the kind of book you are talking about, you need about $5000 at the minimum.

I also recommend this key principle: do not invest money that you cannot afford to lose. That goes for printing, promotion, travel, agent fees if any, and more. In other words, if you and any other investors cannot afford to lose a solid $6000-8000 right now, poof, gone, then I seriously recommend revising your plans. We can talk about what plans of that sort would look like, if you want.

"It would not be a single project; the game engine is flexible and could be, and has been used to run other games, if it is specialized to suit."

Similar to the revision issue ... I suggest that future plans of this sort are premature. For all intents and purposes, you are talking about making a physical object and convincing other people to buy it so that they may sell it to others. These people are not interested in your future plans or the game's future potential. They are interested in whether this object, this time, is going to be a worthwhile investment.

Actually, I should clarify that. Having a stated set of future publishing plans is good, and retailers like to know that you're committed. It's actually a good thing to have at least one secondary or continuing book, even two, already designed and written, and to use that as part of your promotion for the first book.

However, you are in fact selling that first book, and what it is, what it's about, and how it works are all crucial - as opposed to its potential in other applications. That's why I'd recommend concentrating on this project as a single project, with a couple of related products as part of that project - and keep more general or vaguer applications out of the picture for now. Many a role-playing book has failed because the publishers were too enthusiastic about the two-steps-away future as opposed to the present.

"I have been invited to work with what would amount to a new publishing company, but the degree of leverage I would have is not known to me."
...
"Full ownership seems nice. More importantly, I want final say on any games my system would be used in, as far as the system itself is concerned. But it's a case-for-case thing. I do want full ownership of my settings."

I subscribe to the idea that ownership and finances cannot be separated. If someone else is paying to print it, and if they have any authority over its contents or future use, then you won't actually own it. That "final say" for the creator that you mention has, historically, only been possible when he also controls the purse strings, from initial investment to garnering profits.

There's nothing terribly wrong with losing that creative control, if you don't mind doing so. You become, essentially, a freelancer who has sold his material to be published, which is a personal choice.

The other option, if you decide to work with the new publishing company that you mentioned, is to become a full partner, with executive power made explicit in writing, which will permit you to "own" the game and to exercise the creative control that you describe. As a full partner, you would have to invest in the printing and essentially be a publisher with the help of the others involved.

Well, I hope some of this has been helpful. Remember that all the above is one man's input, and that you need to get lots of different views to arrive at your own conclusions and eventual decisions. If other folks like Gareth-Michael Skarka, Lewis Pollak, Jason Blair, Dav Harnish, and Jeff Diamond could contribute to this thread, I'd really appreciate it.

Best,
Ron

Max,

Ron has been pretty thorough with you and although I doubt I qualify as a true veteran I would be happy to share some of the information I have learned in the 15 months I have been studying the industry.

When you are trying to decide whether to do this or not, keep in mind there is a lot of work that goes into creating any RPG product, especially if you want to keep the quality high.  Be sure that you are ready to invest that type of time, effort and energy.  I am sure that you have a day job or daytime activities, this will, likely, affect them.

Some factors to consider:
1.  Do you have any partners that are experienced in the industry joining your team?  (This helps a lot with the learning curve)
2.  If you are not retaining ownership: Are you very comfortable with the folks that you will be working with?

Above all, if you do this seriously, take every experience you have in this industry and try to turn it into a learning experience.  Take opportunities to glean information about how the business works (marketing, distribution, design, etc.) and make contacts.  There is a lot more to this business than just writing and even a freelance writer (who just wants to write) can be made better for the knowledge.

You should be prepared for things going awry, its a part of all business but if you are really serious it will make you a better RPG designer.

Good Luck!

Eugene

Quote from: Ron EdwardsIf other folks like Gareth-Michael Skarka, Lewis Pollak, Jason Blair, Dav Harnish, and Jeff Diamond could contribute to this thread, I'd really appreciate it.

Your wish is my command, Ron.  :)

Originally, I wasn't going to post to this thread, because the the initial post gave me the indication that Max was pretty much in the "wouldn't it be cool" stage, rather than any serious intent to publish.  A couple of the statements that Ron already pointed out led me to this conclusion.

That said, the biggest piece of advice I could offer is this:  don't get into publishing unless you have someone on staff who knows the business.  There are just way too many pitfalls along the way that can turn a potentially successful product into a failure, and if not burying a company outright, can at least result in the company spending much more than they have to.

These pitfalls include: dealing with printers, size of print runs, shipping, fulfillment, marketing, etc. etc. etc.   The list is pretty large, and the industry is filled with small-press start-ups that run into the obstacles full-speed.

DISCLOSURE:  Yes, I do consultancy for small-press publishers on a freelance basis.  The above advice is not, however, motivated by a desire to rope in another client-- it is genuine.  Too many folks try to get into the business, assuming that because they're experienced gamers that they're somehow qualified to start a publishing business.

GMS

Gareth-Michael Skarka
Adamant Entertainment

Thank you, this has been a good help.

I'll bet it won't be the last of my questions :)

I would have to agree with Gareth, publishing can eat you alive if you dont know what your doing (and knowing is half the battle). I've had minor succes so far but at a huge cost.

Get as much advice as you can, Gareth runs a consultant service that will save you in the long run...PAY NOW (and know whats in store for you and how to go about it) OR PAY LATER(and wast a lot of scratch making foolish mistakes that you could have avoided).

Also ther is a FAQ @ http://www.rpgpublishing.com/ it has some info thats kinda helpfull.

Max;

--What Ron and Gareth said...

To some degree, I agree with all points brought up by all on the forum.  While I don't know that you *need* an experienced person in your corner to dive-in to the industry (as we certainly did not), I will say that it will more than double your chances of survival.  In the end, it may well be worth it to work out something with Gareth in the area of "please make sure I am not eaten before the kids see my product".  This would likely mean Gareth setting you up with contacts, a crash course in what works vs. what doesn't, why distributors are satan (well, likely he won't say that, per se...), why retailers are stubborn (believe it or not, sometimes they have good reasons), etc.  

The other option is get in good with others in publishing world and see about doing a mentoring/spying/be-like-mike program.

Now, to the meat of your questions:

Hard vs Soft Cover:  Chicks like it hard.  Yeah, vulgar, crass, and all, but it sums it up nicely, I think.

Pricing: Many hardcovers are $30-40 these days (and they are fucking off if they think I shell-out that much on more than 1 or 2 games every six months to a year).  I suggest trying to price the damned thing as low as you can reasonably go.  Shoot for a 100% ROI on your invested capital per book (and only referring to recouping print costs, here, not the whole shebang... art, editing, all that... sunk cost).

Distribution:  El Diablo.  Their cut, colloquially "the Bite", is mean, cruel, and makes you feel violated.  This is normal.  Many people exist to act as warehousers for your merch. before the distributors take title.  I don't know your living situation, but I can say from experience that being in a small-ish apartment with boxes of product lining walls and eventually swallowing a room, can be a nightmare.  Think hard about Tundra or Wizard's Attic.

The Game:  Oh yes, the game.  This is that important bit just before printing and profit and money spending.  So tell me.  No really, I mean tell me after a moment of reflection, candor, and honesty:  what have you got?  Is it good enough?  I mean the whole package: premise, system, hook, stakes, the whole deal?  (Setting, as Ron so elegantly proves, optional)

That said, give me a round figure for your budget.  Yeah, I am prying deep, just wait till I get around to your Social Security Number...  I just want to know what assets you have going in.  In these cases Assets would be:

1) Artists, who are friends, slaves, or otherwise free-labor pool
2) Editors of the above persuasion
3) Playtesters (dime a dozen I tell you)
4) Business experience
5) Publishing experience
6) A gambling spirit
7) Salesperson of some skill
8) A good, solid, and most of all: not-like-those-guys' Game
9) $$$$

(If you have printing/binding equipment at home, this is a big plus as well)

Dav

I've been mucho busy and just saw this.  Lots of good advice here I don't need to reiterate.  What I will say is this: if you dismiss the advice of those that tell you not to self publish, you owe it to yourself to talk to as many people as possible.  There are MANY mistakes to be made, but you can learn about many of them and avoid them by talking to people.

We recently averted a disaster more by accident than anything because I asked the right person an innocent question and got a totally different answer than what I expected.  Don't assume anything.  Ask people who have done it.  I just hope I found all the mines.

The one point I personally disagree with was Dav saying to go the cheap route.  I think in some ways that it is harder to distinguish your game from others by doing that.  That said, going hardback, etc. can be very very expensive.  This also has something to do with my personal convictions.  Ultimately, you have to decide what is right for you and your game, but run it past retailers and publishers and see if it passes their BS meters.