Forge Midwest gathering, March 2006

[Paul Czege]

Hey Matt,

I've talked with Ron, and he's really advocating that publishers offer their games for sale at the meeting. I think it's a good idea.

I think you just need to designate a couple of gathering times for cash sales. The objective wouldn't be to facilitate sales, because we all know that sales are going to take place, but to formalize sales, so everyone knows when the social circumstances allow you to interrupt conversations for selling and buying, and when you can best expect a designer to be prepared with his receipt book or whatever.

Paul

[Valamir]

I would actually recommend against any kind of formalized or semi formalized (or even acknowledged) sales function.

Not only does the idea of organized sales immediately run into potential difficulty with hotel policy (it is unlikely that a normal conference room reservation includes the right to engage in commerce on the premises) but also calls into question all sorts of issues of collecting Illinois state sales tax.

If someone surrepticiously slips someone else a few bucks and walks out with a book that's one thing.  But I think any kind of encouragement of this is really putting those who are paying for the space at risk.  That's not even getting into any quirky local municipal laws regarding vendors or sales licenses.

Personally, I'm showing up to play cool games and have cool conversations with cool people.  Sales...feh...order it from each other's websites afterwards IMO. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

You probably know more about this sort of thing than I do, Ralph, but I kinda look at it like a yard sale.  Everyone is selling items that belong to them to private citizens.  As long as the sales totals don't reach a high ammount, I don't see much difference.  I definately concede that I am ignorant of all the legal mumbo-jumbo of such things.

Peace,

-Troy

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I was really wrestling with those issues too, Ralph. At this late date, and since the IL sales-tax thing really does seem insurmountable, maybe the sales-function has to get jettisoned. Damn it, that makes my capitalist heart seize right up. Perhaps a "sales-fest" activity during the weekend using laptops, at dinner? Or something like that?

Best,
Ron

[Matt Snyder]

Guys, agreed. I was worried about similar issues Ralph mentioned, especially sales tax and hotel "ok." I think it's worth inquiring with some other con organizers how they handle smaller hotel cons and vendor sales.

Ron, can you explain what you mean by the sales-fest activity? I'm not getting it.

[Blankshield]

Illinois isn't going to go chasing down private citizens, especially ones from other states or other countries for a couple % that those individuals will then be able to recover via bureacracy anyway.  Especially since, even with runaway sales, like everyone there buys two, we're talking like, 10-20 bucks from any given individual.

I dunno, maybe you guys have to be paranoid with lawsuits and stuff down there, but I really don't see what the big deal is with having a table with books on it, and an hour or two when the designers agree to stand nearby and take money.

James

[Valamir]

If that activity was happening in your own house...none whatsoever.

If that activity is happening on hotel property in a room contracted for a different purpose altogether...it would all depend on how much of a hard ass the hotel wanted to be about it.  Possible reactions from the hotel staff could range anywhere from completely ignoring it, to politely asking us to stop, to kicking everyone out and not refunding the money, to actually turning the room owner in to the department of revenue.  Why would the hotel take the more extreme action...simple...because if they don't they've technically become a party to conspiracy to commit tax evasion and the penalties for that are far in excess to whatever minimal dollar amounts actually changed hands.  An easy going hotel manager may shrug and say "big deal".  A hard ass hotel manager on the other hand could be a real prick about it.

Could you organize a dozen of these things, have a blatant sales table and never have the hotels bat an eye...sure, I bet it happens all the time.  Same as you could find auto mechanics willing to pass your car's inspection even when they shouldn't, or CPAs willing to stretch the definition of an allowable tax deduction.  But why bother taking the risk.  90% of the games that would be for sale are for sale at a website that takes paypal anyway. 

[Ron Edwards]

Well, here's what I'm thinking. Maybe at designated times, we could set up laptops for people to buy the games through the regular websites, in a sort of group frenzy of click-and-pay. Nothing really different from them doing it on their own, with their own computers, but it might have a nice "play then buy" and group-reinforcement feel.

That way no one is acting as a retail outlet, as no actual stock is changing hands. I'll check with a lawyer to see how kosher this is, and whether the hotel or the state would call this "sales."

James, although I agree the risk is minimal, it's also good to stay squeaky-clean when possible. When not possible, you'll see some bending and civil disobedience from me, you bet, but speaking as Adept Press, I always try to play well within the rules as much as I can.

Best,
Ron

[Jared A. Sorensen]

This is some serious bullshit.

If you want to buy someone's game, you get their contact info. Or you google the designer's name or company and order it online. Or you know, use your brain. For the people who want to sell games, it's far easier to email a PDF or send a few books media mail than to lug a dozen or two (or three?) to Illinois. GenCon is the place for The Forge's frantic, sweaty brand of free enterprise. I'd like to avoid seeing the gamer equivalent of drug dealing or a general flea-market atmosphere.

I just want to get together with friends I usually only see once or twice a year, hang out and play some good games.

[chris_moore]

I'm looking forward to the Forge Midwest event.  Is it still happening?  Is there any way to "register", pay, etc.?  My apologies if I've missed something, or if my questions aren't appropriate in this thread...just curious about the event's status.

chris moore

[Matt Snyder]

Chris, it is indeed still on! I will make the official thread/announcement tomorrow, Feb. 1.

I do not plan on having any kind of registration or pre-payment. I'm looking at a "fee" (to help pay for the meeting room -- you'll be on your own for accomodations) of $10-$20 per person.

[Nev the Deranged]

What about nonForgizens? Is this event open to anybody? I was hoping to drag some of my recalcitrant gamer friends, and maybe some nongamer friends, and use this as a crucible to convert them into indie gamers extraordinaire. Or something like that. Is that feasible, or should I just keep it to myself? Is the fee going to be at the door? Should I tell them to bring cash if they come?

what's the dillio?

[Matt Snyder]

Patience! All will be revealed ...

(Oh, and sure, they can come. If you gonna bring a whole troupe of 12 people or something, let me know. We do only have one meeting room, and if more are coming, we'll need to accomodate. But this isn't gathering meant to exclude people.)

[Paul Czege]

Hey Matt,

Any chance the hotel would set the meeting room up with enclaves of comfy chairs, loveseats, and end tables, rather than dining tables?

Paul

[Matt Snyder]

I can always ask! I'm waiting to hear back from them today, and will call during lunchtime if I don't.