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Author Topic: Burning Wheel Rules Drift  (Read 4657 times)
dunlaing
Member

Posts: 308

My name is Bill


« on: December 07, 2005, 07:09:01 PM »

One of my players wants to drift the Burning Wheel rules significantly: He is refusing to pay resource points for shoes and clothing. "I got shoes, I got clothes, and having spent two whole points for f*<ing paper, the ink comes with it!" is a direct quote. Should I expel him from our gaming group? Another player has paid his points for shoes and clothing, though he is unwilling to share clothes and shoes with the other player.

Also: when you buy shoes, do you only get two?
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Mayuran
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Posts: 75


« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2005, 10:12:47 PM »

seems like the player is going to be unhappy with the entire resources mechanic if he expects to just get what he wants. seems like he expects to get what he wants by bullying and being forceful at the table. what does he want to buy with his resource points?

as for the second question, see p. 168- clothes.

a character gets enough of a given object to suit their lifestyle. a peasant vagabond may have one pair of shoes or boots, if he can afford the 1 rp cost. a city-born trader might have a closet of shoes, at the same cost.
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Darren Hill
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2005, 10:38:59 PM »

I have a sneaking suspicion that the first post was not entirely serious. (God, I hope so.)
It's caused me to giggle several times since I read it, anyway.
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rafial
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2005, 10:54:30 PM »

Linked series of tests -> Ob3 Speed to make to the tailors before anybody spots you in your potato sack -> Ob3 Forte test not to cut your foot on a stone on the way -> Ob1 Resources test to buy clothing.
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Luke
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2005, 11:18:07 PM »

Dun,

i'm having a hard time deciding if this is ironic or not. Is this a serious query?

-L
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dunlaing
Member

Posts: 308

My name is Bill


« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2005, 06:42:01 AM »

It's a little of both, really. It's certainly an ironic way of stating the issue.

I think we're used to games that don't go to this level of gear acquisition (like Over the Edge, for instance) so that's part of it. But I think it was a bit disconcerting for my player when he realized that he not only had to buy paper, but also ink and quills as a seperate expenditure. There seems to be a mismatch of fine detail in the gear section--if you're buying travelling equipment one item gets you everything you need, but if you're buying apparel you have to buy two seperate items (clothing and shoes).

So I guess I'm wondering what the standard is for clothing and shoes. Is every character expected to pay resource points at character generation for clothing and shoes? Or is it more of a "there's only so much you can do with 2 rp, here's something to spend those 2 remaining you have without feeling like they've gone to waste?" Or something else entirely.

The character was described as a master criminal who works for himself, but has a reputation as THE man to go to when you need to get something done. He was a Bandit, an Archer, a Criminal, and a Thinker (we're doing 6 lifepath characters) and he ended up with 37rp, of which 25 went to his 2D reputation and he needed another 5rp on property in order to get a b2 Resources. Another 5 for a hunting bow and he only has 2rp to spend on other stuff. He wanted paper, so he has to run around naked now?

We spent a while at the session last night laughing about it, and his quote was said in a spirit of good humor, not anger (although perhaps a tiny hint of frustration).

So, just to put real questions at the end of the post for ease:
  • Is every character expected to pay rp for shoes and either clothes or finery? If not, is there another reason for their inclusion in the gear lists?
  • Do shoes work like clothing (you get more than one pair)? (mtiru: I saw that notation for clothing but wasn't sure if it worked for shoes the same way)
  • Is it badwrongfun if we just let this character start the game with clothes and shoes? (assuming it's ok with Jim, who actually paid for his character's clothes and shoes)

Thank you, and sorry for any consternation I may have caused.
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Luke
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2005, 07:27:15 AM »

If I might rephrase the question...

Why are clothes, shoes, paper, ink and quills so damn expensive in BW?
Because most people in the middle ages had to make their own clothes and shoes. Or their mother did. And they didn't readily have extras available. Peasantry and whatnot in the middle ages were really fucking poor. 1 rp is essentially a regressive tax on the peasantry -- because it sure doesn't mean anything to a character with a decent amount of rps.

Shoes are essentially a health care item. They increase the well being of the wearer. They were hand made and a decent pair were expensive. Cheap shoes were essentially made of cardboard. This made little difference to the nobility who could afford shoes and afford not to walk. Peasantry and the working classes weren't so lucky. So again, the 1 rp cost for shoes is to demonstrate that such an item was not a given in the setting for BW. Poverty is rampant. Something that's hard for our modern mind to grasp, I think.

As for paper, ink and quills. It's just too cheap. I should have priced it at like 50 rps. But it is what it is. So paper, ink and quills -- again, extremely rare and expensive items.

-L
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dunlaing
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Posts: 308

My name is Bill


« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2005, 10:55:21 AM »

What about my second bullet?
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Thor Olavsrud
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2005, 11:25:38 AM »

What about my second bullet?

It works just as mtiru said. Peasants and villagers and such would get one pair of shoes. Nobility would get a number. It all depends on what would be appropriate to your lifepaths.
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Judd
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2005, 11:37:48 AM »

Eff peasants and their shoes and who had 'em and how many pair and who made them.

Resources create want.

He doesn't want to pay for shoes...great, first scene, first game, he is outside, homeless, without shoes.  You have the first part of your adventure.  When he's writing his Beliefs, remind him tha this character does not have shoes and winter's-a-coming.

The game's mechanics create story; that is what they do.  Whatever Luke and Thor say the reasoning was behind it, at the table, I have found that they create drama.
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MetalBard
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2005, 12:04:13 PM »

Eff peasants and their shoes and who had 'em and how many pair and who made them.

Resources create want.

He doesn't want to pay for shoes...great, first scene, first game, he is outside, homeless, without shoes.  You have the first part of your adventure.  When he's writing his Beliefs, remind him tha this character does not have shoes and winter's-a-coming.

The game's mechanics create story; that is what they do.  Whatever Luke and Thor say the reasoning was behind it, at the table, I have found that they create drama.

This is a great idea.  It could also be done with the paper.  Maybe the player wants to start with shoes as well, but why do they want that paper so much?  What are they going to do with it?  I would personally be interested in that and tie actually getting the paper, inks and quills to whatever they'd be doing with them into the conflict.
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"If you've ever told someone how your day went, you can narrate." - Andrew Norris at the Forge on player narration

My name is also Andrew and I have a  blog
coriakin
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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2005, 03:51:38 PM »

It was me!  I was the guy!

I'd like to underline Dun's comment that his whole post was meant, mainly, in fun.  We were cracking up as he was posting it.  I guess you had to be there.

I have no problem paying rps for shoes & ink per se.  I buy the argument that these things were rare & expensive in medieval times, hence their cost.  Two things continue to nag me, though:

1. Of all the many things which were incredibly expensive and rare in medieval times, why are the ones that are listed listed, and not the myriad others?  Are they meant to stand as examples/guideposts, or is their another rationale for their particular inclusion?

2. Why is initial equipment acquisition taken to so grainy a level, in a system that (through Resources) is relatively fluid and non-grainy when it comes to Gettin' Stuff during the game?
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Luke
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2005, 09:43:36 PM »

What about my second bullet?

There was only ONE SHOOTER.


Hi Corkiakin,

1. These are the things that I felt were important to setting the mood for BW. Yeah, spices, glass, cotton, all very valuable. But it really fucks with people's heads when you tell them they can't have shoes or paper without anteing up some story power.

2. I've found, for fantasy roleplaying of the pseudo-historical variety, gear helps flesh out the character. It's essentially a nod to the frp genre with a tip o' the hat to a little historioctiy. But there's a little game design in there, too. Weapons, armor, horses, I want those things to be important and valuable. Putting value on them reinforces our setting (in short: nobles rule, peasants drool). You pick the gear that is vital to your character RIGHT NOW. Anything you don't need RIGHT NOW to make your guy the guy you envision, don't worry about. You'll be able to get it later with Resources.

does that help?
-Luke
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 09:49:54 PM by abzu » Logged

coriakin
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Posts: 2


« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2005, 10:04:24 PM »

Hi Corkiakin,

1. These are the things that I felt were important to setting the mood for BW. Yeah, spices, glass, cotton, all very valuable. But it really fucks with people's heads when you tell them they can't have shoes or paper without anteing up some story power.

2. I've found, for fantasy roleplaying of the pseudo-historical variety, gear helps flesh out the character. It's essentially a nod to the frp genre with a tip o' the hat to a little historioctiy. But there's a little game design in there, too. Weapons, armor, horses, I want those things to be important and valuable. Putting value on them reinforces our setting (in short: nobles rule, peasants drool). You pick the gear that is vital to your character RIGHT NOW. Anything you don't need RIGHT NOW to make your guy the guy you envision, don't worry about. You'll be able to get it later with Resources.

does that help?
-Luke

It does.  I think it's safe to say that my head was, in fact, fucked with when I realized I had to pay for the paper AND the ink.  Which I'm much cooler with knowing that it was intentional on your part. :)

Looking forward to getting past character creation into actual gameplay in the next few weeks.
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drozdal
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2005, 12:47:55 AM »

It does.  I think it's safe to say that my head was, in fact, fucked with when I realized I had to pay for the paper AND the ink. 
OK, now I dare You to play well educated (hey he has that paper and ink after all) but barefoot Bandit!
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