"Best Of" Collections

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

For what reasons, Joshua? Anything in addition to whats already been said?

Also, the box set is a cool idea. Anyone have any experience with actually getting such a beast published? Is it feasible for the routes that we tend to take?

If it contains ten games and those games cost $20 apiece when they're separate, are you going to charge $200 for a collected edition? Even assuming that you don't have to charge as much because of the reduced overhead and subsequent 15%... no, let's say a pie-in-the-sky 25%, that's still $150 retail for a 1500 page tome. That's not gonna get anyone new interested. Not to mention that new editions come out pretty frequently, but irregularly. And, in order to go into a book, someone's got to typseset 2000 pages. That's a job for an art director and an army, not, well, me alone. Not even Matt S. and I together could do this in any reasonable fashion, unless we started pushing publishers to work toward our guidelines, and that's way, way against everything I like about indie publishing.

It seems like a lot of money to buy, it seems like a lot of effort to produce, and it seems like the end product would be of dubious value. 1500 pages can't fit into one codex, particularly given the bindings we have available, so they'd have to be split in some reasonable fashion, meaning that you'd get more like three volumes of 2-4 games apiece.

Some things that could change to make this feasible:

• It could become dramatically cheaper to print volumes. (This is inching downward, yes.)
• There could be a standard, high-efficiency layout used in all the games. (I recoil at this aesthetically and ethically).
• There could be a huge number of pre-orders, like hundreds, that would demonstrate how wrong I am in my assumption of the popularity of this item and would fund the development.

However!

The much more modest goal of publishing an annual Ronnies/IGC/24hrRPG volume is a very, very good idea. Once playtested and edited, a lot of those games won't be longer than a few pages anyway, are often very powerful and focused, and if designer notes were included, they'd be an excellent resource for people developing in our model(s).

That still represents a large volume of editing work, game design work, illustration, and book design that links the various styles together. To the editor who takes that on, I salute you and will happily work with everyone and share the profits.

... and if that last word there scared you, then you see where I'm coming from.

[Nathan P.]

Heya Lee,

The only problem with that is that Forge isn't that kind of entity. Something like Indie Press Revolution or Key20, on the other hand, could do it.

I could also see it as a viable way to try to cross-pollinate sales among your own games. A thought that comes to mind, in addition to a discount card, is something like if you have four or five different titles, offering the PDF of any game for free when the customer buys two in print.

Thanks for the clarification, Joshua. I agree that thinking in terms of anthology, rather then compilation, is probably more realistic as well.

[komradebob]

At a more basic level, if cross promotion is the goal, you could simply put a "if you like my game, you might try..." page at the back of your book. I was just going through some old MSPE modules and realized that they had an advert on the last page for games made by othert companies that they'd had some partnerships with in the past. Is there any reason for indie designers not to do something similar?

[Josh Roby]

Actually, a number of indie publishers already do this, bob.  I certainly will be in FLFS.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Under the Bed has Indie Publisher Collectors' Cards in the deck. Get 'em while they're hot!

[Ben Lehman]

The problem with even a Ronnies collection is getting all the authors on board.  I'd be very reluctant to publish some of those games in any form but the one that I dictate.

picky writer--
--Ben

[JarrodHenry]

The problem with even a Ronnies collection is getting all the authors on board.  I'd be very reluctant to publish some of those games in any form but the one that I dictate.

picky writer--
--Ben

I would think that the Ronnies collection could go something like this:

Introduction by another designer/player who particularly liked that game.
Ronnie game in revised form.
Designer Post-Mortem

[Josh Roby]

Ben, would you be okay with some pretty broad specs that you could design within?  Something like specifying trim size, color process, margins, and maybe a position of the page number?  I'd think that, for the type of product that a Ronnies compilation would be, that might result in an interesting variation of page spreads -- and easily identify which game you're reading with a quick once-over.

[Ben Lehman]

Joshua and Jarrod --

It isn't an aesthetic thing.  It's an economic thing, in that I intend to bring my games to stand-alone publication.  And, secondarily, it's an artistic thing in that I find selling incomplete or inadequate art somewhere between distasteful and criminal.  I also think it gives a poor impression of independent games and contest games in general.

Not saying such a compilation can't go on without me.  But there are very real reasons for an artist to object, which can't be resolved trivially.

I've been part of one compilation project (the NPA) that was largely positive.  Another one I've committed to and if it ever happens, I'll follow through on that commitment because I believe in keeping my word as best I can.

But I'm not getting involved in another compilation project unless two conditions are met:
1) It makes economic sense for me.
2) The games are designed specifically for the compilation and playtested, revised, and polished before printing.

Meeting 1) seems to me to be next to impossible, but I'm willing to be surprised.

In the case of the Ronnies, I believe the purpose of that contest is that these games should go on to be full-on game publications in their own right.  An anthology dilutes this, and also gives the message that it's "okay" not to finish your game, and that your game is less valuable because of its contest ties.  This is wrong.

yrs--
--Ben

[Josh Roby]

Ah, gotcha.

[JarrodHenry]

Fair enough.  I never knew that was the purpose of the Ronnies.  I was under the impression that the Ronnies were an "Iron Chef" like competition that involved 24hour RPGs.   Now, they are, but I wasn't aware that some people decided to go all the way through with their games.  Given the four code words and the odds that people might make similar games, I'd be concerned of diluting the market in that manner. 

Jarrod

[Veritas Games]

Heya Lee,

Howdy, Nate.  Happy holidays.  I hope all is well with you.

The only problem with that is that Forge isn't that kind of entity. Something like Indie Press Revolution or Key20, on the other hand, could do it.

The Forge gets its ducks in a row to have a GenCon booth.  I think they can get their ducks in a row together to handle some sort of gift certificate or discount card.  Whether they will or not, Nate, well that's another matter.

A thought that comes to mind, in addition to a discount card, is something like if you have four or five different titles, offering the PDF of any game for free when the customer buys two in print.

That could work.  An interesting idea.  I think these types of things are a lot more plausible than producing some monster volume the size of the Oxford English Dictionary filled with Indy games.

Cheers

[Ben Lehman]

Fair enough.  I never knew that was the purpose of the Ronnies.  I was under the impression that the Ronnies were an "Iron Chef" like competition that involved 24hour RPGs.   Now, they are, but I wasn't aware that some people decided to go all the way through with their games.  Given the four code words and the odds that people might make similar games, I'd be concerned of diluting the market in that manner. 

BL>  Consult the initial thread  The cash prizes for the Ronnies are given with the understanding that you may use it as seed money for some aspect of individually developing and publishing the game.  (italicized part is Ron's.)

In terms of Iron Game Chef, the Fantasy contest produced two games that saw print (so far, others are still in production), one of which is the much acclaimed Mountain Witch.  The Historical contest has already produced three games that've seen print, which is impressive for less than a year.  (There may be others, too, I may have just missed their publication.)

These contests may look like "woo, let's have fun and design meaningless thought-experiment trifles that aren't about serious publication and serious play" but I assure you that they are very much about serious design, serious publication, and serious play.

"Let's just slap it all togethed into an anthology" is, as far as I can see, actively opposed to those purposes.  "Let's seriously playtest and develop and rewrite these games and then anthologize them" might make sense, except that, again as far as I can see, selling them seperately is better for the author/publishers, better for the customers, and more likely to produce serious play of all the games.

I've yet to hear any statements in this thread as to *why* anthologies are helpful to author/publishers, customers, or in producing a culture of play.  Maybe that would be a good direction to head in.

yrs--
--Ben

[JarrodHenry]

Okay. 

Though, my intention was never to "slap it together haphazardly" or anything of that nature.  My intention would have been to demonstrate the game, and then to allow the designer to talk about what was going through their heads.. sort of a "get inside the designer" type viewpoint.  An analysis, as it were, that could be read by others so they could understand the thought processes, design ideas, and such that go into the design of a game.  Then, the designer could detail things that they see "going forward" and the like.  My purpose , had I pursued this, would not have been to haphazardly throw together games, but to give readers an inside glimpse of game design from winning designers. 

But yes, what you say makes sense.   I'll definatly not pursue this then.

Thanks!

Jarrod

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

These contests may look like "woo, let's have fun and design meaningless thought-experiment trifles that aren't about serious publication and serious play" but I assure you that they are very much about serious design, serious publication, and serious play.

"Let's just slap it all togethed into an anthology" is, as far as I can see, actively opposed to those purposes.

You're being unnecessarily provocative here, Ben. Come on. No one's suggesting making crap from crap. My objection was that this would be hard to make right because of sheer volume. If the games are more like 30 pages in length than 100 or 200, it solves that problem, at least some.

What could also be neat is for someone prolific — not to mention Vincent by name — to put his little five-page RPGs into an anthology. The unnamed designer recently wrote a game called "Making a Tree" that was the most beautiful RPG I've ever seen in five pages.

  "Let's seriously playtest and develop and rewrite these games and then anthologize them" might make sense, except that, again as far as I can see, selling them seperately is better for the author/publishers, better for the customers, and more likely to produce serious play of all the games.

I've yet to hear any statements in this thread as to *why* anthologies are helpful to author/publishers, customers, or in producing a culture of play.  Maybe that would be a good direction to head in.

I'm afraid I agree with you.