[Sorcerer] Our second session

[mneme]

Eh.  I mostly just hate the mechanic.

Reasons to like it:
       It scales reasonably.
       The carryover mechanic is interesting.
       It's simpler than a bunch of other systems I hate.

Reasons to hate it:
       It's very fiddly.  Also, hard to explain.  I -still- don't know how many successes 10/9/8 has over 10/1/1.
       Much more complex than systems I love (Everway, OTE with the "all dice explode" rule).
       The "total success" rule (gives advantage to weaker character, since chance decreases with number of dice).
       Campaign-controlled variables that are very hard to understand and choose (die size) but have a significant effect.
       All rolls are opposed (which means that setting oppositon is an added complexity, especially for helping rolls).

That ignores my other issues (I'd like some more options for demon powers, hate the complex combat system, don't like the way the demon summoning rules work as per Julian, etc).  I'm a bit more positive on the system than Julian is.

Basically, I -love- the concept, and more particularly, many of the non-system rules and the way they end up impacting play and squeezing the players.  That said, I think the system could really use a second draft, some cold playtesting, and maybe a fully edited edition.

Going through the more recent replies...

Combat was just a fun-killer.  I'd far rather have done a bit of description, had a few rolls or maybe roll->carryover->roll as per any other complex action, and figure out what had happened.

Yes, the easy way to use a demon to win a debate is "boost lore".  Note that given the various things Sebastian has been learning recently, I'm likely to want to roll Lore and Cover into cover (for reasearch and learning about metaphisics).  Note that we relaxed the restriction on posessors and passers having caster-helping abilities, since those are the only demons allowed.  But our Posessors still displace their subject, so putting one intor yourself isn't that bright.

Note that as the rules appear to read, a demon's power getting upped has one huge penalty -- those three easy Humanity rolls you expected to make?  Not so much.  And since the equasion governing # of successes more or less guaruntees you a demon with your Lore/2+1 power or greater, there's no way to even try to play it safe -- if your lore is 4 or more, you can't get demons with a power of less than 3.

[mneme]

Or he could not summon another demon and not risk losing Humanity. That, too, is a valid statement to make on the premise. It's the player's choice.

You're quite right -- and this was exactly how I was intending to play it.

This is very much on the system side of the system vs mechanics question (like the system, hate the mechanics).

[Bret Gillan]

Joshua,

Hey there. Are you guys interested in working through these problems and improving your game, or are you guys set in your dislike? The former, I'm positive the folks here can help you with. The latter, well, there's not much to talk about.

[Calithena]

I think maybe we should cool it a little until Ron has a chance to talk to Lisa directly.

I -still- don't know how many successes 10/9/8 has over 10/1/1.

2

The "total success" rule (gives advantage to weaker character, since chance decreases with number of dice).

Yes and no. Mathematically, both players have exactly the same chance of total success, regardless of number of dice (10 beat 1 exactly as often as 1 beats 10). So the weaker character doesn't have a better chance of total success, but the same chance. I like this, actually, though I can see why someone might not - but given all the multiple success victories the big guy's going to normally have, giving this one little thing to the little guy doesn't seem so bad to me.

[Bret Gillan]

10 and 1 do not have equal chances of Total Success, nor does the 1 die have an advantage. When you are rolling more dice, you have a greater chance of rolling higher or tying the 1 die. The more dice has better odds since there's a greater chance it will roll high numbers.

While it is quite possible for 1 die to achieve total success against 10, it does not have better or equal odds.

[Bret Gillan]

Sean's math-fu is better than mine. He's right. The chances of Total Victory between two pools of dice are 50/50.

[mneme]

Huh?

*thinks*

Ok, yes.  Sort of. The greater the number of dice on  either side, the smaller the chance of a total success...but in any given context, the chance of total success of each side is equal.

However, this doesn't invalidate my point -- the more dice you have, the smaller your chance of total sucess.  Also, the smaller your opponent's chance of total success, but that's irrelevant for this point.

1 vs opposing difficulty of 1: chance of total success/total failure is 45%
3 vs opposing difficulty of 1: chance of total success/total failure is 20%
9 vs oppositng difficulty of 1: chance of total success/total failure is 5%

Of course, there's an easy fix: don't bother paying attention to total successes (instead, just look at number of successes, which goes up more or less linearly with ability).

Bret, I'm interested in:
       Fixing the ambiguities we ran into and putting the clarifications somewhere more easily findable.
       Fixing the systemic problems in Sorceror and putting the fixes where someone else can see it, so the system is less of a barrier.
       Maybe pulling the coolest parts of the system out and repuposing another system around them that has a better feel for the group.

I'm not so interested in:
      Hearing how perfect the book is (ok, nobody's been saying this, far as I know).
      Hearing how perfect the game is (I'm interested in -debating- this, but I'm unlikely to be convinced)

[Bret Gillan]

Joshua,

You may find the Sorcerer Wiki useful for resolving rules questions and textual ambiguities.

The Adept Press forum here at the Forge also contains a great number of threads with some of the more common questions. When Sean and I were discussing Maths in a PM conversation I used the search function to look up a Total Victory question I had and bam, there it was. You can probably find a lot of the answers there as well.

In terms of "pulling the coolest parts of the system out," I think you'd find that Kickers and Bangs can be used pretty universally and do a lot to improve a game.

Best of luck!

[Trevis Martin]

Sorry, in my first post I made a point of saying that the demon variance options that the GM could use were optional.  I didn't absorb that Lisa had said that she noted that and it wasn't the point.

Bret beat me to it. Most of the rules clarifications Ron has made have been collected and categorized in Doyce Testerman's Sorcerer wiki just in case you haven't seen it.

Dice examples (using 10 siders)

PlayerBob rolls his stamina of 4 to smack Joe's NPC with a bat
9,8,7,5  Bob's highest is 9
JoeGM rolls the opponents stamina of 3 who wants to shoot Bob's character.
7,6,5  Joe's highest is 7, Bob wins with two successes.  (Joe now has options but I'm just looking at numbers comparisons for now)

another roll
PlayerBob rolls
9, 9, 8, 2  Bob's highest is 9
JoeGm rolls
9, 9, 7  Bob wins again, the nines cancel out so Bob's highest non tied die is an 8 which beats Joe's 7

(In that situation, as I mentioned I tend to call out "What's your highest?"  If the player's highest matches mine then I say "Cancel, What's your next highest?" and so down the line.)

Bob rolls
10, 7, 6, 5,  Highest is 10
Joe rolling only one rolls
10  --  Bob wins marginally because he has more than one die.

In this case of one side rolling only one die (which doesn't come up often) the roll is a marginal victory on the side with more dice.

Does that make sense for you guys having trouble with the dice?

best

Trevis

[mneme]

Thanks for the Wiki links!

Trevor: Not so much -- it's still a counter-immersive process

I haven't had that much of a problem just looking at the dice (aside from arguments over whether you could yield fewer successes by rolling higher (well, yes)), but others in the group may have.  I have had problems with the GM trying to figure out what to use as resistance for helper rolls -- her default seems to end up being "the same thing you're rolling against originally", which amounts to, in difficult situations, giving you 1.5 chances to do an impossible thing before breakfast instead of just 1.

[Trevis Martin]

Hey Josh.  I don't know the official ruling but I always use a 1 die opposition for helping rolls.

Trevis

[Julian]

Hi Lisa! Glad to hear you guys are still plugging along! I wanted to take a poke at some of your problems and see if I can help at all.

+ Why do a snapshot summon or contact?

Because your neckdeep in dookie and summoning another demon might be the only way to get out of it. Because you need to communicate with a demon RIGHT NOW and you can't take hours to do the rituals. Yes, it's more of a longshot than doing the rituals, but as others have said, there's always rollover and RP bonuses. It is not impossible.

You can't get a demon right now. It takes three rounds minimum, and probably more, because you're going to blow the contact and/or summon rolls a few times. You quite probably never get it, because of the penalties for repeat attempts, and the fact that if you sit there trying to summon a demon for long enough when you're neck-deep in trouble, you end up dead.

+ Highly skilled sorcerers are worse at getting demons than low-skilled ones because of the power bump.

I'm 99% sure this is an optional rule.

Perhaps, but it's a really bad optional rule. It simply fails to make sense on any level.

+ Humanity gain from banishing a demon is backwards.

I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. You roll your Humanity vs. the demon's Power and if you LOSE you gain Humanity.

I don't have the book to check, but the summary says this.

Lisa,

You say that you and the players think you had fun in spite of, not because of, the rules. You cited some concerns, but do you have any specific instances of in-game events where the system disrupted play, or where you had less fun because of the rules? Frankly, right now it seems like you guys are just grappling with a new system. That happens to everyone. You're learning the rules and figuring out the idiosyncracies.

Combat is a real drag, and I don't think this is going to change.

Every time you have to roll, it's a big context switch from "playing the game" to "fussing with the dice".

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm pretty sure I get the system, and I'm unhappy with it.

I haven't had that much of a problem just looking at the dice, but others in the group may have.

Beth is the one who really dislikes the mechanic.

I have no real problem picking out high numbers, but it's annoying, especially when you've got a lot of dice.

[rafial]

My rule of thumb for figuring odds on with the Sorcerer dice mechanic:

If you have 50% more dice than your opposition, your have a bit over a 60% chance
If you have twice the dice of your opposition, you have around 70%
If you can get triple the dice, you have an 80%

The total size of the pools does have an effect, but it's small (~5% or so)

[Lisa Padol]

I think Bret's question's a fair one, and that, as there are 6 of us, there will be 6 answers.

For me, I want to know:

First: What is supposed to be going on? In other words, first I want to establish that we're not misunderstanding, missing, or otherwise accidentally flubbing the rules.

Second, what problems are due to my GMing weaknesses? I am pretty sucky at complicated combat, and "complicated" for me is far simpler than "complicated" for most gamers.

Third, what problems are due to my GMing weaknesses, take two? That is, Sorcerer is supposed to run hard, lean, and mean. To what extent have I dropped the ball if the players aren't losing Humanity and summoning demons left, right, and center? Where should I be pushing? Or, am I confusing rhetoric with reality and seeing a problem where there is none?

Fourth, once I've got the answers to the above: What, if anything, do I think doesn't work, and why?

Fifth, these things that I think don't work are set up that way for a reason. What is that reason?

Sixth, once I've got those nailed down, what, if anything, do I still think doesn't work? How much of this is due to my GMing style and our group's play style?

Seventh, is Sorcerer a viable game for our group? If not, then, yes, maybe it's time to think about tweaking things. Or, maybe we should be playing a different game. No harm, no foul -- but, also, as Bret says, no point in asking for further advice.

Eighth, is Sorcerer a viable game for me to gm? Is it something I could become good at demoing?

Ninth, is Sorcerer a viable game for me to play? And, if so, and if the answer to either of the last two questions is "no", where can I get my fix?

-Lisa

[coffeestain]

Lisa,

Based on these two quotes:

"Every time you have to roll, it's a big context switch from "playing the game" to "fussing with the dice"." and "Not so much -- it's still a counter-immersive process."

I have doubts as to whether this is a viable game for your group.

I have no doubts you can play it and run it and enjoy it.  Many other folks do.  It just seems to me that, as your players have clearly stated and are trying to defend with greater and greater vigor, it's not the kind of game that does what they want it to do.

Obviously, all of the rules confusion will need to be hashed out, but I'm certain the end result won't change.  Do you have another group you can recruit for Sorcerer?

Regards,

Daniel