My new game.

[Starblade]

To Joe:

Oh. I didn't know you were planning to do pre-generated characters. May I ask if there's a specific reason for this?
Does it represent, say, the "nexus" picking who shall be a "gaterunner"?

Yeah. The best of each world were chosen to help the planets thrive, by using the gates.

Um... I think there's more to this question than "who's responsibility is it to determine rewards and punishments".

For example, you say you want to reward creativity and good roleplaying. That's a behaviour set you want to reward.
If you set up a mechanic to reward this, then you're on your way.
However, if yuo instead reward people "experience" for fighting in combat, that could potentially draw players away from the desired gameplay style.

I'm reading into what you're saying, but it seems like these are the things you want to reward players and characters with: characterization, ingenuity, exploration, discovery, decision making.

It's hard for me to imagine a way that I, as the gamer, could do that, unless someone else or I wrote a guidebook for the DM, and that's quite a bit of work. At any rate, I could do it this way: Different spell components are located at different parts of the world. In order to find them, you'd have to explore them. Furthermore, the gates open and close periodically, so if you are going to make it through the gates, you have to time it. Also, there will be times where you must only use one character in the party. This encourages people to use all six characters rather than just one. I could make multiple storylines and make the story itself so rewarding that people would prefer to do that than to just do the regular DnD stuff like fighting monsters, and doing cheap mini-missions.

To Troy:

Heya,

Hiyas.

Erm, ok I'll go with you on the pre-generated characters thing.  But here's my advice on that.  Create way more than just six characters for the players to choose from in the begining.  Like 15 or so at least.  Then, provide ways for them to immediately start changing the characters to make them their own.  This way they take ownership of the game right away and each time they play it, it will be different.  Even though this is a "scenario" as you put it, it is important to give the players as much freedom of choice and development as possible.

I want to teach people to use what they've got. I'll try to make the six characters as varied as possible, but it is necessary storywise to start off with just six. You get more characters as you progress through the game anyway, and if you ever get too many, you can put some in the nexus to train with the AI program.

Dang, that's good Joe.  It's an honor to be teaming up with you in helping Starblade on this.  Pay attention to what he said, Starblade.

I'm glad Joe was able to pick up on this. It's based on something I said earlier, but it wasn't exactly obvious.

Bah, that's part of the GM's job.  Anyway, he should be taking his ques on what to introduce to the characters based on the ebbs and flows of various places.  It might require more bookwork, but every game is different.  So I think you're okay there.

I guess it makes sense to leave that to the GM. I can worry about a map of the ebb and flow if and when I create a computer game version, which will differ only in that the computer is the GM.

That's bad.

Well, let's see, I could describe some examples of good or bad things to do, based on which culture with which you are dealing. I could state some guidelines for the GM and give him/her less power, so that it won't be entirely based on the GM. However, if I were to write something about what was intelligent and what was stupid, I'd have to write a whole book to go into all the details.

This is good!  The GM's job is never to tell the player's their stupid or that the choice they made was "wrong" in some way.  He is to react to what the players do.  That means consiquences.  If the players decide to have their characters do something destructive, then the GM shows them the destruction they caused (and then also gives them a way to fix it and/or stop the harm from spreading).  This won't wreck your game.  You'll just have to trust the players to play in their best interest.  That's all any designer can do :)

Ah, that's what you meant. I implicitely assumed that the players would want to play in their best interest. Certainy, I didn't mean the GM decided that some things were intelligent and others were stupid. I meant from a self-interest perspective, something may be considered intelligent and something may be considered stupid. That is, supposing saving the world is in their interest.

Okay, well glad to have support from you there. :P

I'd like to you to explain this to me just a bit more.  I don't want what the Plot is, but what I'm looking for is what the mechanical function of the Plot is.  In otherwords, what is role of the Plot in your game?  And what do you mean by Real Time?

The role of the plot in the game is to give some idea of what the world is like, and of what the AI has asked the characters to solve. It's to structure gameplay so that people don't go off JUST boosting their stats or whatever system I should so choose to use.

Eh, you're doing better than I did when people first ask me the same ones :)

Yeah. That's because I have had the idea of the game for quite a while, and had someone else to help me.

Peace,

-Troy

Eh, might as well expose my signature here.

(...Starblade Riven Darksquall...)

[joepub]

Starblade Wrote:

Quote
It's the GM's job to determine if what they've done is something intelligent or something stupid.

-That's bad.

Agreed.


Let me elaborate a bit more on what I meant by:

Um... I think there's more to this question than "who's responsibility is it to determine rewards and punishments".

For example, you say you want to reward creativity and good roleplaying. That's a behaviour set you want to reward.
If you set up a mechanic to reward this, then you're on your way.
However, if yuo instead reward people "experience" for fighting in combat, that could potentially draw players away from the desired gameplay style.

I'm reading into what you're saying, but it seems like these are the things you want to reward players and characters with: characterization, ingenuity, exploration, discovery, decision making.

dungeons and dragons wanted to reward fighting dangerous villains and awesome monsters.
As such - they developped Challenge Ratings, Party Levels, Effective Character Levels, and elaborate experience charts.

Fate gives rewards in cycles - what influences them most is life accomplishments, shifts of focus, and story development.

I take it that this game focuses on 3 major things:
-Characterization
-Exploration
-Decision Making

Exploration awards you access to new tools, new facilities, and new spell components. That's a good mechanism for rewards.
Characterization lacks rewards at this point. If I take pregen character #4, what reward do I have for living up to character #4's vision? If 4 is violent and foolhardy, do I gain a bonus for playing her this way?
If not, why would I do that over playing #4 smart and reserved?



Decision Making seems especially lacking in reward mechanisms. I'm going to tell you a bit about a Decision Making mechanism I use in my own games - struggles. This does NOT apply to your game, I just want to give you an example of what I mean.
Struggles are self-chosen by players. They are a scale that ranges from 5 to 0 to 5:
5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5. One end represents a concept, the other end a diametrically opposed concept.
If the scale was at Love 2 / Hate... then Love actions are at +2, and hate actions at -2.

After an action, the scale shifts towards the concept that was used in the action.
This is, in a way, rewarding a certain behaviour decision by putting it at a higher bonus next time.

[Starblade]

Um... I think there's more to this question than "who's responsibility is it to determine rewards and punishments".

For example, you say you want to reward creativity and good roleplaying. That's a behaviour set you want to reward.
If you set up a mechanic to reward this, then you're on your way.
However, if yuo instead reward people "experience" for fighting in combat, that could potentially draw players away from the desired gameplay style.

I'm reading into what you're saying, but it seems like these are the things you want to reward players and characters with: characterization, ingenuity, exploration, discovery, decision making.

dungeons and dragons wanted to reward fighting dangerous villains and awesome monsters.
As such - they developped Challenge Ratings, Party Levels, Effective Character Levels, and elaborate experience charts.

Fate gives rewards in cycles - what influences them most is life accomplishments, shifts of focus, and story development.

I take it that this game focuses on 3 major things:
-Characterization
-Exploration
-Decision Making

Exploration awards you access to new tools, new facilities, and new spell components. That's a good mechanism for rewards.
Characterization lacks rewards at this point. If I take pregen character #4, what reward do I have for living up to character #4's vision? If 4 is violent and foolhardy, do I gain a bonus for playing her this way?
If not, why would I do that over playing #4 smart and reserved?



Decision Making seems especially lacking in reward mechanisms. I'm going to tell you a bit about a Decision Making mechanism I use in my own games - struggles. This does NOT apply to your game, I just want to give you an example of what I mean.
Struggles are self-chosen by players. They are a scale that ranges from 5 to 0 to 5:
5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5. One end represents a concept, the other end a diametrically opposed concept.
If the scale was at Love 2 / Hate... then Love actions are at +2, and hate actions at -2.

After an action, the scale shifts towards the concept that was used in the action.
This is, in a way, rewarding a certain behaviour decision by putting it at a higher bonus next time.

Exploration will be one very important theme to the game, so I'll make sure there are enough rewards for that.

Your game rewards consistency, not actual decision making. I suppose I'll put forking plotlines in my game, or something like that, which could determine the difference between being praised as a hero or condemned as a fool. Or if it's the GM's job to do that, I'll write guidelines for that.

As for characterization... that's going to be a difficult one. The only thing I can think of is if you start doing something out of character, the GM says it's out of character, either as just a suggestion or an actual prohibition. But what's to keep the GM in line? I guess I kind of expect there to be a kind of inherent joy in keeping the characters in character. That's part of the reason one roleplays, rather than simply playing video games.

[joepub]

Your game rewards consistency, not actual decision making.

Well, actually - if one ever hits 5 on either end of the scale, they fall victim to their own decisions.
Thus the game is about finding a balance in your struggle: deciding when to recess, when to push.
THAT'S the decision-making reward.

I suppose I'll put forking plotlines in my game, or something like that, which could determine the difference between being praised as a hero or condemned as a fool. Or if it's the GM's job to do that, I'll write guidelines for that.

This might just be me, but I don't think you should ever depend on Plotlines.
It's not your job, and its not the GM's.

It's a collaborative process. If EVERYONE isn't involved in where the plot goes, then it ceases to really be roleplaying.

The only thing I can think of is if you start doing something out of character, the GM says it's out of character, either as just a suggestion or an actual prohibition. But what's to keep the GM in line?

It's the GM's job to determine if what they've done is something intelligent or something stupid.

Both of these statements are indicating a gap to me.

Think about this: the GM arbitrates rules, not value statements. The GM is there to narrate the rest of the world, not the players themselves.

By mechanic, we are not talking "GM Guidelines". We are talking about a reward for staying in character.

An example: FATE has a character element called Aspects. Aspects are character chosen, but in the case of Gaterunner would be pregenerated.
These are statements that represent the character. They can be "strong", "weak", "Tough as Nails", "Armed Soldier" or "Best Chili Chef in Texas".
If you are playing off that aspect, you can check off an aspect box to gain a re-roll.

Plus, when you throw yourself in harm's way in order to live up to your aspect, you gain Fate Points, whereas going against your aspect costs Fate Points.



This is one example of how playing in character can be rewarded mechanically.

[Starblade]

Your game rewards consistency, not actual decision making.

Well, actually - if one ever hits 5 on either end of the scale, they fall victim to their own decisions.
Thus the game is about finding a balance in your struggle: deciding when to recess, when to push.
THAT'S the decision-making reward.

It still seems a bit forced to me.

I suppose I'll put forking plotlines in my game, or something like that, which could determine the difference between being praised as a hero or condemned as a fool. Or if it's the GM's job to do that, I'll write guidelines for that.

This might just be me, but I don't think you should ever depend on Plotlines.
It's not your job, and its not the GM's.

It's a collaborative process. If EVERYONE isn't involved in where the plot goes, then it ceases to really be roleplaying.

Well that's a good point. However, I still get the feeling that decision making should be rewarded by means of confronting actual decisions. I still want to tie in the reward for good decision making in with the actual plot. That seems the most rational way for me.

The only thing I can think of is if you start doing something out of character, the GM says it's out of character, either as just a suggestion or an actual prohibition. But what's to keep the GM in line?

It's the GM's job to determine if what they've done is something intelligent or something stupid.

Both of these statements are indicating a gap to me.

Think about this: the GM arbitrates rules, not value statements. The GM is there to narrate the rest of the world, not the players themselves.

By mechanic, we are not talking "GM Guidelines". We are talking about a reward for staying in character.

An example: FATE has a character element called Aspects. Aspects are character chosen, but in the case of Gaterunner would be pregenerated.
These are statements that represent the character. They can be "strong", "weak", "Tough as Nails", "Armed Soldier" or "Best Chili Chef in Texas".
If you are playing off that aspect, you can check off an aspect box to gain a re-roll.

Plus, when you throw yourself in harm's way in order to live up to your aspect, you gain Fate Points, whereas going against your aspect costs Fate Points.



This is one example of how playing in character can be rewarded mechanically.

I don't really want to reward character mechanically. Except possibly this way: Each character has a set of 'fans', if you will. These are people who know the person, or have heard of the person, and agree with the person's style. They will occasionally help out in the game. The catch is this: They're only helping you out because they like who you are. If you play out of character, less people will like you. Basically it's a reputation thing.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

It's hard for me to imagine a way that I, as the gamer, could do that, unless someone else or I wrote a guidebook for the DM, and that's quite a bit of work. At any rate, I could do it this way: Different spell components are located at different parts of the world. In order to find them, you'd have to explore them. Furthermore, the gates open and close periodically, so if you are going to make it through the gates, you have to time it. Also, there will be times where you must only use one character in the party. This encourages people to use all six characters rather than just one. I could make multiple storylines and make the story itself so rewarding that people would prefer to do that than to just do the regular DnD stuff like fighting monsters, and doing cheap mini-missions.

-Ooooooooh!  The characters are cumunal.  I get it.  Far out!

I want to teach people to use what they've got. I'll try to make the six characters as varied as possible, but it is necessary storywise to start off with just six. You get more characters as you progress through the game anyway, and if you ever get too many, you can put some in the nexus to train with the AI program.

-This is quite different.  I like it.  What are the mechanics for picking up a new character in-game?

I guess it makes sense to leave that to the GM. I can worry about a map of the ebb and flow if and when I create a computer game version, which will differ only in that the computer is the GM.

-Yeah, that's true.  But for now, one thing at a time.  Let's get this hammered out first.

The role of the plot in the game is to give some idea of what the world is like, and of what the AI has asked the characters to solve. It's to structure gameplay so that people don't go off JUST boosting their stats or whatever system I should so choose to use.

-Okay.  But who gives the AI the problems for the characters to solve?  The GM or the Players?  My vote would be that the players submit something to the AI and then the GM modifies it with complications.  For instance.  The players tell the AI "I need spell component X to help stabalize this gate over here.  Where can I get some?"  That's a priorty (goal) set by the player.  The GM then has the AI say, "Well, there's a lot of X over here on planet Z.  But the problem is there's this cult there that's realyl messing with the ebb and flow.  If they keep it up, the gate will collapse.  I'd like you to do something about it if you could."  At this point it's up to the player(s) to decide if they want to tackle the cult, or just storm in and grab what they need.  Either way, the GM gets to set up the scenario.  How's that sound?

As for characterization... that's going to be a difficult one. The only thing I can think of is if you start doing something out of character, the GM says it's out of character, either as just a suggestion or an actual prohibition. But what's to keep the GM in line? I guess I kind of expect there to be a kind of inherent joy in keeping the characters in character. That's part of the reason one roleplays, rather than simply playing video games.

-I think the issue you had here, you resolved here:

I don't really want to reward character mechanically. Except possibly this way: Each character has a set of 'fans', if you will. These are people who know the person, or have heard of the person, and agree with the person's style. They will occasionally help out in the game. The catch is this: They're only helping you out because they like who you are. If you play out of character, less people will like you. Basically it's a reputation thing.

-Characters change through Status.  They can use their Status to get things they need like training, spell components, access to wise old men, mana potions, and so on.  It's sorta like XP and Gold put together in one reward mechanism.  That's something I totally dig and I don't think I've played a game like that yet.  Cool!  It would be up to the players to keep track of the Status earned and the Status spent for each individual character, which is a little bit of bookkeeping.  But hey, it's not that bad and it will be something they want to do.  Nice.

Peace,

-Troy

[Starblade]

Heya,

Hiyas.

It's hard for me to imagine a way that I, as the gamer, could do that, unless someone else or I wrote a guidebook for the DM, and that's quite a bit of work. At any rate, I could do it this way: Different spell components are located at different parts of the world. In order to find them, you'd have to explore them. Furthermore, the gates open and close periodically, so if you are going to make it through the gates, you have to time it. Also, there will be times where you must only use one character in the party. This encourages people to use all six characters rather than just one. I could make multiple storylines and make the story itself so rewarding that people would prefer to do that than to just do the regular DnD stuff like fighting monsters, and doing cheap mini-missions.

-Ooooooooh!  The characters are cumunal.  I get it.  Far out!

Do you mean communal?

I want to teach people to use what they've got. I'll try to make the six characters as varied as possible, but it is necessary storywise to start off with just six. You get more characters as you progress through the game anyway, and if you ever get too many, you can put some in the nexus to train with the AI program.

-This is quite different.  I like it.  What are the mechanics for picking up a new character in-game?

I was thinking that depending on your reputation in the city from which you want to recruit, you get bonuses or penalties. At the beginning, you have a reasonable ability to pick up party members. However, as your reputation increased in some areas, you could hypothetically amass armies, and as your reputation decreased in other areas, you'd be lucky to pick up one in a whole month of recruiting. It also depends on the reasons for picking up people. At the beginning, I'm assuming you're just going to do some exploring and learning about the ancients. This is something that at least a few people are likely going to want to help you on.

I guess it makes sense to leave that to the GM. I can worry about a map of the ebb and flow if and when I create a computer game version, which will differ only in that the computer is the GM.

-Yeah, that's true.  But for now, one thing at a time.  Let's get this hammered out first.

The role of the plot in the game is to give some idea of what the world is like, and of what the AI has asked the characters to solve. It's to structure gameplay so that people don't go off JUST boosting their stats or whatever system I should so choose to use.

-Okay.  But who gives the AI the problems for the characters to solve?  The GM or the Players?  My vote would be that the players submit something to the AI and then the GM modifies it with complications.  For instance.  The players tell the AI "I need spell component X to help stabalize this gate over here.  Where can I get some?"  That's a priorty (goal) set by the player.  The GM then has the AI say, "Well, there's a lot of X over here on planet Z.  But the problem is there's this cult there that's realyl messing with the ebb and flow.  If they keep it up, the gate will collapse.  I'd like you to do something about it if you could."  At this point it's up to the player(s) to decide if they want to tackle the cult, or just storm in and grab what they need.  Either way, the GM gets to set up the scenario.  How's that sound?

Actually I have a plot: First you have to prove to the AI that you're the best, then when you get out of the nexus the first thing that you'll want to do is gather information about the ancients. This will help you figure out more about the ebb and the flow, and give you proof to offer adventurers in that quest. Then you can infiltrate areas and gain info on ebb creatures and/or flow creatures, and when you collect more evidence, you're ready to start the next phase: Getting people to actually change their customs and how they treat magic.

Before you go around changing things, you might want to check out the facilities. I was thinking that facilities could help with these things: Basic resources, Religious worship, Technological items, and Military testing, Scientific research, and General production. Depending on which planet you are on, different things will be emphasized. They each have unique facilities, and for each planet, one type of facility will be more prominant. The nexus even has a plot device: Potential contact with the ancients. For this you should keep a log with you of things that have happened, not just to the party, but other information as well, most likely that which involves the development of the six planets, whether you were responsible or not.

At any rate, back to the plot. The civilizations will react to you, and this will probably be the hardest part of the game. You have to fight off unstable cities, and either prevent, support, or ignore the nations that are building, depending on their effect on not just the ebb and flow, but other things that are important, namely the facilities, and the cities. If you want, I could even make environmental issues, but only if the nations are to enter into the industrial age, something I'm sorta weary about, as it might clash with the setting of the game.

As for characterization... that's going to be a difficult one. The only thing I can think of is if you start doing something out of character, the GM says it's out of character, either as just a suggestion or an actual prohibition. But what's to keep the GM in line? I guess I kind of expect there to be a kind of inherent joy in keeping the characters in character. That's part of the reason one roleplays, rather than simply playing video games.

-I think the issue you had here, you resolved here:

I don't really want to reward character mechanically. Except possibly this way: Each character has a set of 'fans', if you will. These are people who know the person, or have heard of the person, and agree with the person's style. They will occasionally help out in the game. The catch is this: They're only helping you out because they like who you are. If you play out of character, less people will like you. Basically it's a reputation thing.

-Characters change through Status.  They can use their Status to get things they need like training, spell components, access to wise old men, mana potions, and so on.  It's sorta like XP and Gold put together in one reward mechanism.  That's something I totally dig and I don't think I've played a game like that yet.  Cool!  It would be up to the players to keep track of the Status earned and the Status spent for each individual character, which is a little bit of bookkeeping.  But hey, it's not that bad and it will be something they want to do.  Nice.

I was talking with Joe, and he didn't like the idea of 'fans'. However, I suppose some other form of status is something to which he might not be so opposed. How do you think the whole status thing works? I was still going to use six kinds of currencies, and experience in specific skills rather than overall experience, but status might add to the whole thing. The question is this: Does it make sense for ones status to depend on characterization?

Joe and I were talking and I came up with the idea that, if we used stats, and if we used charisma as one of the stats, something he was kinda iffy about, to say the least, then since charisma represents the force of ones personality, one would have to act in character to have a good charisma stat. The better one acted in character, the higher the charisma. I've noticed that people of all personality types can have charisma, at least within specific groups, so it's not really that off. However, I think Joe has some issues with charisma, as he says it detracts from roleplaying. However I think I have that solved. What do you think?

Peace,

-Troy

Thanks for the help!

(...Starblade Riven Darksquall...)

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Do you mean communal?

-Eek!  Yes.  I appologize for my spelling.

I was thinking that depending on your reputation in the city from which you want to recruit, you get bonuses or penalties. At the beginning, you have a reasonable ability to pick up party members. However, as your reputation increased in some areas, you could hypothetically amass armies, and as your reputation decreased in other areas, you'd be lucky to pick up one in a whole month of recruiting. It also depends on the reasons for picking up people. At the beginning, I'm assuming you're just going to do some exploring and learning about the ancients. This is something that at least a few people are likely going to want to help you on.

-Okay, I'm seeing the need here for two mechanics.  First, you need one for the players to earn additional PCs to play.  This way they can generate their own personal characters and express their creativity.  One thing you do want to make sure of, though, is that the origonal six will always be better than a new character when it first comes into play.  The Second mechanic you need is something where the PCs can add a "Soldier" to their army.  This needs to be different from a PC.  It wouldn't be a "playable" character; it would be more like a minion.  Basically, the player would just fill in a bubble or add a number somewhere on his character sheet denoting what kind of soldier he has added- not fill out a whole new character sheet.  Is that in line with what you are thinking?

Actually I have a plot: First you have to prove to the AI that you're the best, then when you get out of the nexus the first thing that you'll want to do is gather information about the ancients. This will help you figure out more about the ebb and the flow, and give you proof to offer adventurers in that quest. Then you can infiltrate areas and gain info on ebb creatures and/or flow creatures, and when you collect more evidence, you're ready to start the next phase: Getting people to actually change their customs and how they treat magic.

-The last sentence is really the key one.  That's where the players will really have the most fun.  If you present the others as brief, ritual challenges, then I think they'd work out.  I'd have to see it in a larger context to be able to tell, though.

I was talking with Joe, and he didn't like the idea of 'fans'. However, I suppose some other form of status is something to which he might not be so opposed. How do you think the whole status thing works? I was still going to use six kinds of currencies, and experience in specific skills rather than overall experience, but status might add to the whole thing. The question is this: Does it make sense for ones status to depend on characterization?

-To answer your last question:  For me, yes it does.  The kind of person you are determines how well you will be liked.  The kinds of deeds you do, will determine how well you are treated.  To answer the Status thing:  I see Status as working as both Advancement Points (XP basically) and as Gold.  You can spend the Status points you earn (say 3-5 per night unless you do something really heroic) to improve your skills- by training with famous masters, buy equipment- in the form of gifts by worshiping fans/friends, or add new PCs/Soldiers- through recruitment.  Status would be the ultimate currency in the game for the PCs.  As far as coins and cash on other planets, yeah each can have its own form of money.  But the PCs probably won't care about it much.  Don't you think the AI would provide all the food and biological supplies they would need?

Joe and I were talking and I came up with the idea that, if we used stats, and if we used charisma as one of the stats, something he was kinda iffy about, to say the least, then since charisma represents the force of ones personality, one would have to act in character to have a good charisma stat. The better one acted in character, the higher the charisma. I've noticed that people of all personality types can have charisma, at least within specific groups, so it's not really that off. However, I think Joe has some issues with charisma, as he says it detracts from roleplaying. However I think I have that solved. What do you think?

-If you want to represent character advancement and/or status as a function of increased Charisma, then I think that's fine.  It might take some real work to make it turn out the way you wanted, but hey, that's part of designing a game, right?

Peace,

-Troy

[Starblade]

Heya,

Hiyas.

Do you mean communal?

-Eek!  Yes.  I appologize for my spelling.

It's okay. We all make mistakes. Pobody's nerfect. :P

I was thinking that depending on your reputation in the city from which you want to recruit, you get bonuses or penalties. At the beginning, you have a reasonable ability to pick up party members. However, as your reputation increased in some areas, you could hypothetically amass armies, and as your reputation decreased in other areas, you'd be lucky to pick up one in a whole month of recruiting. It also depends on the reasons for picking up people. At the beginning, I'm assuming you're just going to do some exploring and learning about the ancients. This is something that at least a few people are likely going to want to help you on.

-Okay, I'm seeing the need here for two mechanics.  First, you need one for the players to earn additional PCs to play.  This way they can generate their own personal characters and express their creativity.  One thing you do want to make sure of, though, is that the origonal six will always be better than a new character when it first comes into play.  The Second mechanic you need is something where the PCs can add a "Soldier" to their army.  This needs to be different from a PC.  It wouldn't be a "playable" character; it would be more like a minion.  Basically, the player would just fill in a bubble or add a number somewhere on his character sheet denoting what kind of soldier he has added- not fill out a whole new character sheet.  Is that in line with what you are thinking?

The way I'd do the whole personal characters thing is to make it so that you'd be given some basic givens, but that they could also change. I would imagine backround would not change at all, personality would be difficult to change, stats would be changable with some effort, and preferred style of adventuring would be easily changeable, and as for equipment, IE weapons, armor, and items, that you would HAVE to give them.

As for soldiers, each culture would probably have similar enough stats for their soldiers, depending on what position they are to fill, IE swordsman, archer, calvary, et cetera. However, I got to thinking, would every culture have the same type of units? Okay, so they'd have the same basic units, but not the more complex ones. However, to be fair, each culture would have certain units that are unique, and I don't just mean they'll have units that are their own version of given archetype, something I'll also have, but I mean certain special units. Also, to be sure, I'm not forgetting magical units. You can recruit a magician for combat.

I don't know if it's better to have agent type people be playable characters, or if there should be some agent type work that would be better to do as a strategy type thing. Also, will the players enter strategic combat? If so, I imagine they'd fight against individuals, in a unique style that lets PCs fight soldiers. Since the way we'll be doing PCs and soldiers are too different to simply switch one to fight in the other's style, we'll have to think of a way to combine them.

Actually I have a plot: First you have to prove to the AI that you're the best, then when you get out of the nexus the first thing that you'll want to do is gather information about the ancients. This will help you figure out more about the ebb and the flow, and give you proof to offer adventurers in that quest. Then you can infiltrate areas and gain info on ebb creatures and/or flow creatures, and when you collect more evidence, you're ready to start the next phase: Getting people to actually change their customs and how they treat magic.

-The last sentence is really the key one.  That's where the players will really have the most fun.  If you present the others as brief, ritual challenges, then I think they'd work out.  I'd have to see it in a larger context to be able to tell, though.

You have a point, but I don't want to downplay information gathering. In fact, that's going to be a major theme of the game: Making your way through challenges to find pieces of evidence to some sort of puzzle, and then trying to figure out how that puzzle piece fits together with what you already have. Of course, I also don't want to downplay interaction between players and cultures, which will be another major theme of the game. Perhaps some sort of balance is warranted.

I was talking with Joe, and he didn't like the idea of 'fans'. However, I suppose some other form of status is something to which he might not be so opposed. How do you think the whole status thing works? I was still going to use six kinds of currencies, and experience in specific skills rather than overall experience, but status might add to the whole thing. The question is this: Does it make sense for ones status to depend on characterization?

-To answer your last question:  For me, yes it does.  The kind of person you are determines how well you will be liked.  The kinds of deeds you do, will determine how well you are treated.  To answer the Status thing:  I see Status as working as both Advancement Points (XP basically) and as Gold.  You can spend the Status points you earn (say 3-5 per night unless you do something really heroic) to improve your skills- by training with famous masters, buy equipment- in the form of gifts by worshiping fans/friends, or add new PCs/Soldiers- through recruitment.  Status would be the ultimate currency in the game for the PCs.  As far as coins and cash on other planets, yeah each can have its own form of money.  But the PCs probably won't care about it much.  Don't you think the AI would provide all the food and biological supplies they would need?

The thing is, status isn't gold or XP. I imagine it working alongside gold and XP. I'm going to be doing the 'gold' and 'XP' differently enough so that there will be room for status. There won't be 'gold' per se, there will be 'currency'. You get it off the bounties of the monsters you kill, though you might not need it, not because the AI provide you, but because certain types of facilities might provide you. Also, there won't be 'XP' per se, there will be 'SP', or skill points. You gain skill points just by doing anything, and your skill in that area will increase. How does that sound?

Joe and I were talking and I came up with the idea that, if we used stats, and if we used charisma as one of the stats, something he was kinda iffy about, to say the least, then since charisma represents the force of ones personality, one would have to act in character to have a good charisma stat. The better one acted in character, the higher the charisma. I've noticed that people of all personality types can have charisma, at least within specific groups, so it's not really that off. However, I think Joe has some issues with charisma, as he says it detracts from roleplaying. However I think I have that solved. What do you think?

-If you want to represent character advancement and/or status as a function of increased Charisma, then I think that's fine.  It might take some real work to make it turn out the way you wanted, but hey, that's part of designing a game, right?

No, I want to use status, but I also want to use charisma. It's better if there are just a few redundancies in the game, so that the players have a choice. Just a few. The thing I see is this: Status will reward good decision making, whereas charisma will reward characterization. Or something like that.

Peace,

-Troy

(...Starblade Riven Darksquall...)

[joepub]

Starblade, it's customary to use real names here.
I'm wondering if you go by anything besides Starblade Riven Darksqall.

The way I'd do the whole personal characters thing is to make it so that you'd be given some basic givens, but that they could also change. I would imagine backround would not change at all, personality would be difficult to change, stats would be changable with some effort, and preferred style of adventuring would be easily changeable, and as for equipment, IE weapons, armor, and items, that you would HAVE to give them.

Wait - so if I'm correct, this is more pregenerated characters? Suggestion: the original characters were selected by the AI personally, so giving the players little choice on who they were made sense.

However, these new recruits are being chosen by the characters/players. Isn't if fair to offer them the chance to build their own characters?
That also gives them a reason to - you build slightly less powerful new characters, but they are YOUR OWN.

And, they've now got a strong enough grip on the game that it makes sense for them to build new characters.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Joe Wrote:

Wait - so if I'm correct, this is more pregenerated characters? Suggestion: the original characters were selected by the AI personally, so giving the players little choice on who they were made sense.

However, these new recruits are being chosen by the characters/players. Isn't if fair to offer them the chance to build their own characters?
That also gives them a reason to - you build slightly less powerful new characters, but they are YOUR OWN.

And, they've now got a strong enough grip on the game that it makes sense for them to build new characters.

-I gotta back Joe on this.  Take that for what you will, you don't have to do what we suggest.  But his view and mine are near identical on this subject.

Starblade Wrote:

The thing is, status isn't gold or XP. I imagine it working alongside gold and XP. I'm going to be doing the 'gold' and 'XP' differently enough so that there will be room for status. There won't be 'gold' per se, there will be 'currency'. You get it off the bounties of the monsters you kill, though you might not need it, not because the AI provide you, but because certain types of facilities might provide you. Also, there won't be 'XP' per se, there will be 'SP', or skill points. You gain skill points just by doing anything, and your skill in that area will increase. How does that sound?

-Cool.  I'd love to see some specifics and examples of how SP's will be earned wile playing.  I'd point out that Gold is often useless in D&D3e, so I'd like to know how you might make Currency useful in your game.  Is it tied to Mana in some way?  Can it be a spell component?  Does it have any sort of in-game mechanical value besides buying goods and services?

No, I want to use status, but I also want to use charisma. It's better if there are just a few redundancies in the game, so that the players have a choice. Just a few. The thing I see is this: Status will reward good decision making, whereas charisma will reward characterization. Or something like that.

-I'd like ya to go into more detail on what you mean here, if you could.  How will Status and Charisma be earned?  What effects do they have both on the characters and the game world?

-I can tell you're putting a lot off thought into this, Starblade.  Often by now a newer designer would have flaked out.  Good to see you're sticking with it through so many posts.

Peace,

-Troy

[Starblade]

Heya,

Hiyas.

Joe Wrote:

Wait - so if I'm correct, this is more pregenerated characters? Suggestion: the original characters were selected by the AI personally, so giving the players little choice on who they were made sense.

However, these new recruits are being chosen by the characters/players. Isn't if fair to offer them the chance to build their own characters?
That also gives them a reason to - you build slightly less powerful new characters, but they are YOUR OWN.

And, they've now got a strong enough grip on the game that it makes sense for them to build new characters.

-I gotta back Joe on this.  Take that for what you will, you don't have to do what we suggest.  But his view and mine are near identical on this subject.

Actually, they are not pregenerated. They are generated when you ask for them. HOWEVER, you have to roll a dice or something to see what they're like. I'm also thinking of making it so you could write out personal ads, so if you're patient enough timewise, but stubborn enough statwise, you can get a character that is basically of your own making. Well, close enough.

The thing is... while I like character generation, I don't know how it fits in with this game's setting. I suppose it would work if you DON'T automatically associate this character with the Gaterunners, and each time you built a new character, you'd have to sorta bump into them.

See, the thing is, this is why I wanted to make a freeform version that could be played instead of the scenario version. The world would be the same, but you wouldn't get some of the perks that you get as the Gaterunners. In exchange, you get a character that is of your own making.

Starblade Wrote:

The thing is, status isn't gold or XP. I imagine it working alongside gold and XP. I'm going to be doing the 'gold' and 'XP' differently enough so that there will be room for status. There won't be 'gold' per se, there will be 'currency'. You get it off the bounties of the monsters you kill, though you might not need it, not because the AI provide you, but because certain types of facilities might provide you. Also, there won't be 'XP' per se, there will be 'SP', or skill points. You gain skill points just by doing anything, and your skill in that area will increase. How does that sound?

-Cool.  I'd love to see some specifics and examples of how SP's will be earned wile playing.  I'd point out that Gold is often useless in D&D3e, so I'd like to know how you might make Currency useful in your game.  Is it tied to Mana in some way?  Can it be a spell component?  Does it have any sort of in-game mechanical value besides buying goods and services?

Some currency is minted in such a way that it cannot be created without consent of the government, nor can it be destroyed without consent of the govenrment, and is thus fiat, with no potential use in magic, say as a focus, except possibly as the government allows. Other currencies are bartering items that operate as currency, and thus can be made by the party and used by the party, either as money, as a spell component, or as a spell focus. Its usefulness is as an influencing characteristic. That is, if you don't have enough charisma to make ends meet, use money. Also, if you want to raise troops, sometimes they'll ask for money, sometimes they'll ask for other things. Sometimes they'll just come along for the heck of it, but that's not very often.

No, I want to use status, but I also want to use charisma. It's better if there are just a few redundancies in the game, so that the players have a choice. Just a few. The thing I see is this: Status will reward good decision making, whereas charisma will reward characterization. Or something like that.

-I'd like ya to go into more detail on what you mean here, if you could.  How will Status and Charisma be earned?  What effects do they have both on the characters and the game world?

-I can tell you're putting a lot off thought into this, Starblade.  Often by now a newer designer would have flaked out.  Good to see you're sticking with it through so many posts.

Charisma is a stat, however you can boost rolls that use charisma quite easily, by how well you take care of your body, by what you wear, in terms of magical items or also in terms of just the right level of decoration that you look good, but you don't look gaudy. Furthermore, as I've said before, acting IN character makes your personality more potent. This means if you're gonna decorate yourself, it has to be fitting of the character. A person can be disliked but have high charisma, because people RESPECT the force of your personality. You might not succeed in getting them to join your party, but you might succeed in scaring them away from your party and not intervening. So charisma represents not just how well liked you are, that's more of a status thing, but it represents how forceful your personality is.

Status can be improved simply by making choices that make sense. By roleplaying well, you can earn status. An example is say you want to save a village from a volcano that is about to destroy it. You could 1. (Do nothing), 2. (Help evacuate everybody), or 3. (Use magic to reroute the lava through a path that doesn't destroy the village), or possibly even 4. (Help trap the villagers where they are so that the lava kills everybody). Now this is an example where which choice is the better one is quite easy, so in this case your status would raise only because you did good, not because you made a hard choice. Furthermore, you'd be risking your lives in the process. Another example: A gang of citizens who are not outworlders, but are from a different part of the world, are accused of vandalizing the city, and badly at that. There are probably options I can't think of, so I won't list them here. However, if you make the right choice, whether it be prooving them guilty, or prooving them innocent, or realizing it's a political trap and respectfully declining to judge, your status will go up. Now status is an overall thing. What may lose your reputation in one city will gain your reputation in others. You don't want to go down in history as egotistical, self serving bastards who did nothing but conquer territory for themselves, but you also don't want to go down in history as a foolish bunch of idealists who thought they could change the world, but only ended up hurting themselves.

Peace,

-Troy

(...Starblade Riven Darksquall...) AKA Matthew F.

[joepub]

Actually, they are not pregenerated. They are generated when you ask for them. HOWEVER, you have to roll a dice or something to see what they're like. I'm also thinking of making it so you could write out personal ads, so if you're patient enough timewise, but stubborn enough statwise, you can get a character that is basically of your own making. Well, close enough.

What we're suggesting is this: Let the players make their own characters up that they want to encounter.
Just like you or I would make a character when we entered a d&d campaign.

It allows them freedom in terms of creative involvement, how their party functions, and player priorities.

And it keeps it from being limiting to players.

Cool.  I'd love to see some specifics and examples of how SP's will be earned wile playing.  I'd point out that Gold is often useless in D&D3e, so I'd like to know how you might make Currency useful in your game.  Is it tied to Mana in some way?  Can it be a spell component?  Does it have any sort of in-game mechanical value besides buying goods and services?

Just to reiterate this:

You aren't starting wars, you're leading them.
             people would likely join due to patriotism, bloodthirst, their own protection, fighting for ideals,....
You have facilities, and your position is like an access pass in ways.
             you can just have characters gain access to new facility sectors, and thus bypass buying equipment if you'd like.
You have status, authority, knowledge, power.
             do you really need money to get ends met?

I'm not saying money is inherently a bad thing. However, I know its rarely useful in d&d, and your game is of a similar design in a lot of ways.
Thoughts?

[Starblade]

Actually, they are not pregenerated. They are generated when you ask for them. HOWEVER, you have to roll a dice or something to see what they're like. I'm also thinking of making it so you could write out personal ads, so if you're patient enough timewise, but stubborn enough statwise, you can get a character that is basically of your own making. Well, close enough.

What we're suggesting is this: Let the players make their own characters up that they want to encounter.
Just like you or I would make a character when we entered a d&d campaign.

It allows them freedom in terms of creative involvement, how their party functions, and player priorities.

And it keeps it from being limiting to players.

Okay, here's one way I thought of it working. You can call to the fates, and ask for a new character. It's not as stupid as it sounds. You basically go to a religious facility, rely on your intuition, and if you get a sign, you follow it. This gains you what I'll temporarily call 'fate points'. You can spend these to call for things you need, and a character will take either a little or a lot, depending on how powerful the character will be. I know this is a kind of hackneyed idea, one that makes the religious facilities useful for something, and makes it possible for actual character creation, thus killing two birds with one stone, but just bear with me for a bit. I know we can make this work.

Cool.  I'd love to see some specifics and examples of how SP's will be earned wile playing.  I'd point out that Gold is often useless in D&D3e, so I'd like to know how you might make Currency useful in your game.  Is it tied to Mana in some way?  Can it be a spell component?  Does it have any sort of in-game mechanical value besides buying goods and services?

Just to reiterate this:

You aren't starting wars, you're leading them.
             people would likely join due to patriotism, bloodthirst, their own protection, fighting for ideals,....
You have facilities, and your position is like an access pass in ways.
             you can just have characters gain access to new facility sectors, and thus bypass buying equipment if you'd like.
You have status, authority, knowledge, power.
             do you really need money to get ends met?

I'm not saying money is inherently a bad thing. However, I know its rarely useful in d&d, and your game is of a similar design in a lot of ways.
Thoughts?

I think money will be cultural. It will be a way to get involved with a culture, and it will help gain status amongst your peers, and amongst the whole culture. I think that the whole getting involved with the culture idea will work as a way for money to be used in the game. I know, I could just do without money, but what is a culture without its currency? How do people judge something's value?

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Actually, they are not pregenerated. They are generated when you ask for them. HOWEVER, you have to roll a dice or something to see what they're like. I'm also thinking of making it so you could write out personal ads, so if you're patient enough timewise, but stubborn enough statwise, you can get a character that is basically of your own making. Well, close enough.

The thing is... while I like character generation, I don't know how it fits in with this game's setting. I suppose it would work if you DON'T automatically associate this character with the Gaterunners, and each time you built a new character, you'd have to sorta bump into them.

-I'm not saying that pregenerating the initial player-characters is a bad thing at all.  In fact, I view it as a great thing.  It cuts down on startup time and will prevent people from getting screwed from the get-go because they made a few "less than optimum" choices during character creation.  So keep that idea.  What I am suggesting is the the players be allowed to alter the Pre-gened characters once they start playing AND be allowed to generate from the ground up new Player-characters that will be shared by the whole group once they start playing.  It's something that not many games do at all and I think it would be fun to try.  Let me know if I need to explain this more fully :)

I think money will be cultural. It will be a way to get involved with a culture, and it will help gain status amongst your peers, and amongst the whole culture. I think that the whole getting involved with the culture idea will work as a way for money to be used in the game. I know, I could just do without money, but what is a culture without its currency? How do people judge something's value?

-Oh I can definately see the different cultures have money.  That's totally cool.  And if the PCs have to get some to use as a resource to pay off mercenaries or topple dictators or whatever, that's awesome too!  What Joe and I are talking about is making money important to the PCs gaining personal resources for themselves.  Buying equipment and food doesn't make much sense in your game IMO.  They should start with armor and weapons as you said earlier, and anything that would upgrade those initial items should be found on Monsters and Villains that the PCs face in the campaign. 

Charisma is a stat, however you can boost rolls that use charisma quite easily, by how well you take care of your body, by what you wear, in terms of magical items or also in terms of just the right level of decoration that you look good, but you don't look gaudy. Furthermore, as I've said before, acting IN character makes your personality more potent. This means if you're gonna decorate yourself, it has to be fitting of the character. A person can be disliked but have high charisma, because people RESPECT the force of your personality.

-Okay cool.  So let me understand this correctly: You can raise your charisma by A) Maintaining your body, B) Attaining ornamented Magic Items, C) Wearing Fancy Clothes, and D) Initimidating people.  Is that right?  If so, then I think it's totally cool.

Status can be improved simply by making choices that make sense.

-Is it the GM that decides this?  If so, do you give him any guidelines to go by to help him jeduge the "make sense"-ness of a decision?

What may lose your reputation in one city will gain your reputation in others.

-I like this, but it might be hard to keep track of in-game.  Perhaps you could include a spot on the Ebb/Flow tracking sheet for character Status too.  So the GM can tell what all the conditions of an area will be like for the PCs if they go there.  I don't know, just thinking out loud.  It's something for you to consider :)

Peace,

-Troy