[Maw of Hell] Character Attributes

[joepub]

This game idea stems from the thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18127.0

A synopsis of where I am now:
Maw of Hell is set in the heat of an intergalactic war.
The struggling empires have all deemed this particular jungle planet a "strategic necessity"
The planet is a hellhole, and as such none of the empires want to risk their good soldiers.
Instead, they send in slave troops, penal legions, hired mercenaries, etc.
Essentially every soldier is there for one reason: Earn their ticket to leave again.
Each player takes on a squad in this jungle war.

Each player has two decks of custom cards they play with. These cards essentially represent their character sheets.
The first deck is resources: troopers, equipment, weapons.
The second deck is growth: traits, friendships.

Your empire grants you resources based upon your battlefield success. Succeeding lets you draw more resource cards.
However, growths are something built up from within the group - they are awarded differently (not sure how yet).


So, what I've been working on now:
After figuring out the jyst of how the cards worked (in terms of decks, drawing, etc) I decided to focus on how the characters worked. I needed to figure out how they were statistically represented.

I started with six "attribute ideas". Not sure exactly what I wanted for each of them, I just thesaurus-brainstormed different terms to capture what I was saying.

Aggressiveness (combat instinct, rage, fierce, vicious)
Adaptability (ingenuity, ability, understanding, tech smarts)
Skill (proficiency, gunmanship, accuracy, weaponry, effectiveness, shooting)
Mentality (stubbornness, morale, determination, focus, attitude, resolute)
Survival (endurance, stamina, constitution, perseverance)

Removal (freedom, pardon, absolve, release, parole, discharge)

I decided that the adaptability and skill attributes were close enough to meld together, for the purpose of this game.
As far as Maw of Hell goes, they're both about picking up a gun and being able to shoot it well.

So, I'm tentatively sitting with these 4 main stats:
Viciousness, proficiency, endurance, resolve.

Questions: Is there anything seriously missing from this attribute list?
Are there better terms for these four? (specifically proficiency seems out of place)

And then the "removal" mechanic is titled Release.
Follow the link at the top of the post to learn more about it.


Thanks in advance for feedback, guys.

[iain]

Questions: Is there anything seriously missing from this attribute list?
Are there better terms for these four? (specifically proficiency seems out of place)

And then the "removal" mechanic is titled Release.
Follow the link at the top of the post to learn more about it.


Thanks in advance for feedback, guys.

Hi Joe,
I like the idea of deck as character, something I have played with myself for a while, but I am unclear as how it is being used here. You mention trooper cards in the text, does the deck represent a squad? Or are individual characters memebrs of a larger squad.

I would ask yourself what is most important in the game. In Mob Justice's first draft I had loads of standard attributes, but after talking to Luke and Jared at Gencon i realised that you only need to include the attributes that really matter. In this case I would say that would be soldiering ( the actual business of being a soldier, shooting etc.) and Respect, from your fellow men. You could split soldiering into combat and non-combat as this would make for more interesting card variants. Just some initial thoughts.
Cheers
Iain

[joepub]

I would ask yourself what is most important in the game.
...
In this case I would say that would be soldiering ( the actual business of being a soldier, shooting etc.) and Respect, from your fellow men.

I put a great deal of thought into this.
In effect, I tried to do that. The "soldiering" part is proficiency.
Come to think of it, maybe Soldier is a better stat name in and of itself.

Part of the idea of this game is that war is hell. You're on a planet that is completely overrun with thick jungle and bog.
There is nowhere to escape to. There is no shelter, no getaway. You're in hell, fighting a war you don't believe in.

So - I felt capturing the Standard Attributes as you put it wasn't all that important. they're all clumped into proficiency.
Viciousness, Physical Endurance, and Mental Resolve are what's important to me. I think.

But - I think if I re-term proficiency with Soldier it better represents what I was getting at.

like the idea of deck as character, something I have played with myself for a while, but I am unclear as how it is being used here. You mention trooper cards in the text, does the deck represent a squad? Or are individual characters memebrs of a larger squad.

The cards on the table represent the troopers in battle.
The cards in your hand represent troopers/equipment that you have in reserve.

The cards in the deck are considered "off-world" still. When you draw a card, that represents your empire's Freight Ships assigning new soldiers to your squad, etc.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Here's my 2 cents:
  I think you should use:
Aggression or Assault - Used for fighting skills
Precision or Proficientcy - Used for stealth, medicine or other skill-based ability
Survival or Endurance - Mental and physical toughness, as well as getting food and water in the jungle
Rank or Charisma - Interpersonal skill.
  I think that that captures both the needs of the soldier and the feel of the military. No change please. Seems like a good, gritty idea, good luck!

[joepub]

I think you should use:
Aggression or Assault - Used for fighting skills
Precision or Proficientcy - Used for stealth, medicine or other skill-based ability
Survival or Endurance - Mental and physical toughness, as well as getting food and water in the jungle
Rank or Charisma - Interpersonal skill.
  I think that that captures both the needs of the soldier and the feel of the military.

I like the fact that you differentiated between fighting and stealth.
But I don't like the fact that you tied aggression into Soldiering.

I want aggression to stand alone. I want it to represent the ability to become beastlike, instinctive, and subhuman.
Part of the idea I'm stressing is that you can't survive by being a good soldier.
If you've seen platoon, you know what this stat is about - it's about rage, hate, and viciousness.


Really, I'm allowing the player to control intrapersonal stuff. If you read the linked thread, you know this:

Release is a fifth "stat". It represents how much time a soldier has to pay on the battlefield before earning their pardon, parole, freedom, or paycheque.

Missions earn troopers status points. These are notches in their gun, and check marks on the official documentation of field duty. Each point gives the troops +1 morale bonus.

However, after their total Release number has been reached, they are granted freedom, and shipped off the planet."

That's their "rank".

Also, I'm going to have rules for electing a captain within the group.
But either the troopers go in with no established rank, or once they touch ground their rank means nothing in real terms.
The squad elects its own leaders, regardless of what the "imperials" tell them.

[joepub]

I forgot one thing in the last post:

Tentative Attribute List:

Viciousness (this one is locked)
Soldier
Stealth (possibility...)
Endurance
Resolve

Release (locked)


I want to keep endurance (physical) and endurance (mental) seperate.
They are BOTH important to the game, above all else.

And - there's no need to get food or water in the jungle, dindenver. This is a squad, with a base camp.

[Starblade]

I was thinking... what about a stat called tactics? What does everybody think of that one? Ultimately you want something to represent how good they are at maneuvering, not just the physical skill, but the mental skill of knowing which ones to do, to confuse the enemy or to trap them or whatever. It could be done in a way that doesn't get in the way of roleplaying.

All the other ones are good, and steath could be part of tactics. It might be a leadership type skill or it might not be, depending on how joe wants it to work, but it's just an idea. What does everyone else think of this?

[joepub]

Ultimately you want something to represent how good they are at maneuvering, not just the physical skill, but the mental skill of knowing which ones to do, to confuse the enemy or to trap them or whatever. It could be done in a way that doesn't get in the way of roleplaying.

All the other ones are good, and steath could be part of tactics.

This I like. Maybe the term "tactical" includes tactical movement, tactical planning, etc, etc.

What do you guys think of incorporating this? That would leave us with the following:

Viciousness
Soldier
Tactical
Endurance
Resolve

Release

[dindenver]

Hi!
  I was just going to suggest using a less specific term to incorporate stealth.
  I guess the next question is what will the characters be doing? I can easily make argument for or against seperating Mental and physical toughness. The question is, if there are only 4 stats, do you expect that approximately 50% of all of the characters actions will be mental or physical toughness related, enough to need two seperate stats? For instance, if you combined Endurance and Resolve, you'd have room for some kind of economic stat and a role for a Radar O'Reily type character to make money off of selling dead soldiers supplies or something...
  Just a thought, you definitely have the groundwork for a fun game.

[joepub]

I can easily make argument for or against seperating Mental and physical toughness. The question is, if there are only 4 stats, do you expect that approximately 50% of all of the characters actions will be mental or physical toughness related, enough to need two seperate stats?

Oooh.... now that it's put that way, I don't know.
I want a LOT of emphasis to be put on mental endurance.

And I think it makes a lot of sense to have physical endurance - for a couple reasons. The first is to have some form of "hit points" (and if a war time game that seems important), and the second is how far you can push yourself before you collapse.

I guess the next question is what will the characters be doing?

Well, maybe this is what needs to be address more in depth.
Let me try and summarize a couple things:

-The squads are assigned missions by offworld "imperials". Their missions are often unrealistic, expect to much, and show a complete and utter lack of battlefield knowledge.
-The troopers must complete these official missions in order to gain new resources (troops, equipment and stock) and to earn their pardon.
-The squads also need to carry out their own "grassroots" missions. Sometimes this means defending the base, or stages raids on enemies, or clearing jungle routes. These are missions that are more easily accomplished at times, but that don't earn imperial attention.

-Regardless, both types of missions focus on three things above all else:
                 their abilities as soldiers and men.
                 their determination, grit, and abilty to keep moving despite their frustrations.
                 How subhuman and monsterous these people become when put in this position.

I want characters to have to pick what matters most to them, and I want it to be near impossible to fulfill all their objectives without making some sacrifices - whether it be failing to meet certain objectives, leaving men behind, wasting resources, or being unable to save Little Timmy from enemy fire.

I've actually got a mechanism to represent this - a Priority Totem - but I'd rather focus on attributes in this thread.

[joepub]

you'd have room for some kind of economic stat and a role for a Radar O'Reily type character to make money off of selling dead soldiers supplies or something...

I don't think this would be a big enough part of the game to constitute a stat.
Especially because money isn't dealt with at all in this game.

However, what you're suggesting would make for a totally awesome Trait Card or two:

Scavenger: When a trooper dies, you may regain and equip yourself with his equipment.

Black Marketeer: You may trade in equipment you have to search your deck for any one piece of equipment with an equal or lesser point cost, and draw it.



Thanks for the suggestion - even though I took it in an entirely different direction.
How does that sound, for meeting that idea?

[dindenver]

Hi!
  It's not a bad idea. I only thought economics might become more prevelant because at one point you had mentioned buying your way off of the planet.
  As to the feeling of sacrificing one thing to gain another, maybe that what viciousness should be doing? Maybe characters can volunteer to take on viciousness in order to get a bonus in firefights or other situations that call for it. Or Viciousness can be turned on it's head and called humanity or self-control and you cna spend it like luck or fate. And the value of it effects npc reactions or something more specifically that this gauge is supposed to represent being sacrificed.
  I thought the totem post ws newer, didn;t mean to confuse the situation, sorry.

[joepub]

I only thought economics might become more prevelant because at one point you had mentioned buying your way off of the planet.

The way that soldiers get off the planet is by earning Release - regardless of means.
For penal legions, it is earning parole.
For slaves, it is earning pardon.
For mercenaries, it's completing their pay period and earning their cheque.
etc, etc.

(That's what I meant)

Or Viciousness can be turned on it's head and called humanity or self-control and you cna spend it like luck or fate.

The idea is that viciousness is what they embrace, not their humanity. Their humanity is essential long-term, but it won't make them more effective soldiers on the field.

As to the feeling of sacrificing one thing to gain another, maybe that what viciousness should be doing?

PERFECT IDEA, dindenver! I like this.

I was thinking viciousness would be something that became consuming - like the more you use it the harder it is to escape... Like a drug.

Is there a mechanic/test/etc to incorporate one or both of these ideas?

[dindenver]

Hi!
  The idea I had was to call it humanity instead of viciousness. And when you lose it you turn vicious.
  Basically, you start out with a decent score in it.
  You gain Humanity and lose Viciousness by doing positive interpersonal feats: Negotiating with others, making a friend or making a truce/alliance
  You lose Humanity and gain viciousness in combat.
  Something like, you spend viciousness for extra dice, enough dice to turn the impossible missions into possibility. You bid humanity to win a negotiation. If it is the same stat, you will get to a point where you can do one or the other, but not both. Then the character will have sacrificed something indeed.

[joepub]

The idea I had was to call it humanity instead of viciousness. And when you lose it you turn vicious.
  Basically, you start out with a decent score in it.
  You gain Humanity and lose Viciousness by doing positive interpersonal feats: Negotiating with others, making a friend or making a truce/alliance
  You lose Humanity and gain viciousness in combat.

I had wanted the stats to be solid - so that New Recruit would always have a lower Endurance than Seasoned Veteran would - excluding traits, equipment, etc.

The potential issue with this is that everyone can become as vicious.
When you think of X-Men, who was the most vicious? Wolverine undoubtably had more of that primal subhuman quality I'm going for than anyone else around him.

Maybe I could have Humanity/Viciousness be a max/min stat? Like 4 human / 5 vicious?


Still - it doesn't get at what I'm going for really...
I want some troopers to have that natural killer instinct inside them.

Every trooper has a bigger threshold for violence, aggression, gore, etc.

Resolve is partially how much of that killer instinct they can witness.
Viciousness was intended to be how much they can deal out.


So....
min/max style stat?
make it a humanity stat?
Keep it a stat?
Other suggestions?