Looking for feedback on a core mechanic

[mratomek]

I have been baking a game for a little over two years now and am finally at a point where I think it will see the press some time this year. I have been playing the game regularly at local game shops and cons for over a year with a lot of success. People seem to like it.

I wanted to expose the core system here and make sure I am not suffering from some kind of local kindness, so I would appreciate any feedback.

The game is a hybrid RPG/Minis wargame. It combines the best aspects of both worlds to allow people to create their own characters, worlds and scenarios--and then play head-to-head competativly or in more cooperative groups.

The core mechanic is the action roll. It involves converting a character's attribute score and power score to dice, adding any modifiers, and then calculating a total. Your total must be higher than your opponents total or a TN to be successful.

For example a character might have a Strength 6, Brawl 8 and a Martial Arts +1 special ability. When he made a Brawl action roll, he would roll D6 + D8 + 1.

Pretty straight forward. What I like about it is that even an extremely powerful character rolling 2D12 +3 can still roll a pretty crappy total, low enough for a mere human to get lucky some time. The system also allows characters to use their base attributes to make action rolls for tasks that they might not have a specific power for. It also offers quite a bit of flexibility and control when designing a character.

Thoughts, Suggestions, Criticisms... tear away.

Thanks.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  OK, two comments:
1) Minis games never did it for me, because I could never find a mini that looked like my character was supposed to look. Sometimes, not even close.
2) I think TN setting might be challenging. How do you set a TN that is achievable with 2d6 that is still a challenge for 2d12 and vice versa. There are a couple of designers that have done multi-die systems LIKE this before on the Forge, hopefully they can iron that out for you.
  Good luck man, it could really take off if you do it right.

[mratomek]

1) Minis games never did it for me, because I could never find a mini that looked like my character was supposed to look. Sometimes, not even close.
2) I think TN setting might be challenging. How do you set a TN that is achievable with 2d6 that is still a challenge for 2d12 and vice versa.

1). Part of the reason I developed the game is because there are just sooooooo many minis out there now. You can purchase 100 Heroclix for $30 on eBay. Then its a slice-and-dice heaven. I love scratch building and painting minis, but that's me.

2). First of all, a score of 3-4 is considered what an average adult would find challenging. When you are playing head to head, there is no room for the subjective. So unless a player pays for a specific TN, the default TN for any objective or task is 4. A player needs to break into a high security business building, but you didn't pay for a high-TN, well I guess there is a broken sensor or someone left the door open, because a character only needs to beat a 4 to succeed.

Also, in cooperatively, an experienced GM would have enough sense to adjust TNs accordingly.

[Michael]

First of all, a score of 3-4 is considered what an average adult would find challenging.

If I understand this all correctly, then it would seem that it is almost impossible to fail at a task. For example, the d6 + d8 + 1 character is almost guaranteed to roll higher than a 4, and will definitely roll at least a 3.

As for the mechanic in general, it would definitely create an interesting variety of probability curves.

[nsruf]

The mechanic is so simple and straightforward that the only real problem seems to be setting meaningful TNs. Have you already made a table of the resulting probabilities? This is really the only way to decide whether your numbers are too low (= no challenge) or too high (= incompetent characters).

[Tommi Brander]

In the example, brawl and strength seem to be doing exactly the same things. Why are they separate?
Does the system have point buy of some kind, and if yes, how does it balance attribute + skill system?

[mratomek]

First of all, a score of 3-4 is considered what an average adult would find challenging.

If I understand this all correctly, then it would seem that it is almost impossible to fail at a task. For example, the d6 + d8 + 1 character is almost guaranteed to roll higher than a 4, and will definitely roll at least a 3.

Yes and no. But a character with lets say an Intellegience 6 and a Science 8 would just be a genius from an highly advanced alien culture. Secondly, 3-4 is a challenge for an average adult. Think some college, middle management, how am I going to get the report done for Sanderson and be at my kids soccer game at the same time.

Furthermore, TNs can range from 2, to super simple, all the way up to 20, for something that is so difficult, it is beyond human comprehension. A TN of 8-9 would be nearly impossible if not completely impossible for some "average adult" characters.

[mratomek]

The mechanic is so simple and straightforward that the only real problem seems to be setting meaningful TNs. Have you already made a table of the resulting probabilities? This is really the only way to decide whether your numbers are too low (= no challenge) or too high (= incompetent characters).

Yes:

2   Easy
4   Moderate
6   Challenging
8   Difficult
10   Very Difficult
12   Extremely Difficult
16   Nearly Impossible
20   Impossible
24   Beyond Human Comprehension
30   Cosmic Difficulty


What is importat to conisder is that description of the difficulty is based on the ALL the possibiities that a character might roll, from as low as a single D2--for a very weak minion-level character making a single-dice action roll to 2D14 +4 for a very powerful champion-level character making a roll. The possibliities range form 1 to 32.

The table is based on an average, adult mortal, who could never hope to score higher than an 8. However, more powerful characters such as a iconic super hero, an aged wizard, or super hi-tech wounder would be able to easily somewhere between 8-12.

It is also important to understand that in competative play, a player would pay for a specific TN to thwart his opponent. For example, if I were creating a dungeon, I might want to put a particularly gnasty trap that is well hidden (Sneak 10), difficult to disarm (Traps 10), and deadly (Fire 10). This is in contrast to a default trap that is much cheaper and only has scores of 4.

[mratomek]

In the example, brawl and strength seem to be doing exactly the same things. Why are they separate?
Does the system have point buy of some kind, and if yes, how does it balance attribute + skill system?

Strength and Skill can do similar things, but the skil (or power) represents a learned or specialized ability to do a specific task. It allows me to create a meathead thug (Str 5 /  Brawl 4) or a martial artist (Str 4 /  Brawl 6). Or for a woman, who has never had any kind of combat training, to fight off an attacker using just her Strength.

The system is a point buy system. The score for both the attribute and skill/power carry the same weight and meaning. However, the advantage of a higher attribute is that is can be used with multiple skills/powers depending on how you build your character. For example, I might leverage Str for both Brawl, Armored and Resist.

On the other hand, a skill/power allows a character to combine the skill with an attribute when making an action roll. It further allows you to purchase specific boosts. For example, a character with Brawl can also purchase Combo, Counter, Taunt, etc.

So you can do a lot with your base skills. But your ability is very basic both by your access to a higher score, and therefore dice, and other boost capabilities. With a skill, you increase your ability and dice, and have access to advanced techniques and capabilities.

[nsruf]

Yes:

2   Easy
4   Moderate
...

Actually, what I meant was: have you calculated the probabilities of success? Is an "easy" task really easy to do for an average individual? What skill do you need to accomplish a "hard" task with at least 50% chance of success? This kind of analysis always helps me to get a feel for a useful range of target numbers, mostly to avoid making characters too incompetent (a common flaw of many RPG systems, IMO).

BTW, what dice do you use for the game? A d14 is pretty rare...

[sayter]

A very simple and clean mechanic, but I think that the TN thing is an issue, as mentioned before. Too many dice variations apply. However, this seems to be workign out in this post, so hopefully the issues will be rsolved.

I love the simplicity, especialyl given the usual annoyance in minis games of determining required rolls. Take Warhammer 40k for example....those charts are a nuisance. In a simple system like this, it takes a mere couple seconds, and no need to consult charts based on the enemies abilities. Just roll, compare, remove loser from battlefield, carry on.

However, if they are creating a single character, I assume battles will be on a much less ggrand scale than commonly seen in 1 1000pt or higher game of War40k. For squad based play, these mechanics would be jsut as applicable however. I like it. Keep it up.

[Tommi Brander]

Point buy systems with skill + attribute thing always have breaking points. The optimal assignments. Just a word of warning; not a reason to not use the method.
The usual fix is in having skill and attribute do different things. In your system, attribute could increase the die sizes while skills grant fixed bonus.

Is imitating reality an important goal for this game?



The maths for 2ds, where s is 1 or larger, are quite easy. Combining different dice makes the calculation a bit trickier.

[mratomek]

Actually, what I meant was: have you calculated the probabilities of success? Is an "easy" task really easy to do for an average individual? What skill do you need to accomplish a "hard" task with at least 50% chance of success? This kind of analysis always helps me to get a feel for a useful range of target numbers, mostly to avoid making characters too incompetent (a common flaw of many RPG systems, IMO).

BTW, what dice do you use for the game? A d14 is pretty rare...

As far as dice, the standards: D4, D6, D8, D10 and D12. Only Champion-type characters will have scores higher than 12. When they do, they use a combination of D10 and other dice. So a D14 is actually a D10 + D4. A character with a 1 or 2 is rare also. But converting any dice to a D2 is easy enough. I have painted a couple of D6 up for this purpose.

As far as calculating task resolution %, yes, I did to the math. It is based on a couple of standards: Average Adult (4), Hero (8), Maxed Hero (12+) and Super Champion (14+).

Here are some numbers based on a -/+ 50% and even relative to a character's ability.  For example, an average adult would roll 2D4 (4 (D4) for an attribute and 4 (D4) for a skill) versus a TN 2, 4 and 6.

Average Adult (Minion or NPC) @ 2D4 and TN 4: Average person

TN 2     93+ %
TN 4     62+ %
TN 6     18+ %


Maxed Minion Character @ 2D8 and TN 8: Elite soldier, Black Ops, etc.

TN 4     90+ %
TN 8     56+ %
TN 12   15+ %



Maxed Hero Character @ 2D12 + 2 and TN 8: Super Soldier, Hero. Super Human.

TN 6     95+ %
TN 12     68+ %
TN 18   25+ %



Super Champion @ 2D14* + 4 and TN 14: Intergalactic Super Soldier, Ultimate Warrior rivaling Superman's Power.

TN 7     98+ %
TN 14     84+ %
TN 21   33+ %

* based on a D14 not D10+D4. The expected outcomes will be slightly reduced with D10 + D4 dice.


It is important to note that a player will use 1 or more characters that will likely span the range of average to super champion and everywhere inbewteen. And also that any TN higher than a 4 must be paid for by an opposing player. An extremely difficult task could cost as much as a whole character. So it evens out game play.

[mratomek]

However, if they are creating a single character, I assume battles will be on a much less ggrand scale than commonly seen in 1 1000pt or higher game of War40k. For squad based play, these mechanics would be jsut as applicable however. I like it. Keep it up.

Yes. This game is intened for each player to have between 1 and maybe 20 characters each. And when a player does have a larger number of characters, the majority will be of the Minion Type that are easily disposed of. For example, I have a scenario where a group of scientists aided by the US Army must fond a rip in time in a desert. One players forces were:

1x M1A1 Main Battle Tank
1x M2A2 Bradley Fighting Macine
1x Seargant
8x Soldiers (Minions)
2x Scientists (Minions)

The other side had a bunch of dinasaurs and mutated creatures that would occasionally pop out of the time rip. It was a lot of fun.

[mratomek]

Point buy systems with skill + attribute thing always have breaking points. The optimal assignments. Just a word of warning; not a reason to not use the method.
The usual fix is in having skill and attribute do different things. In your system, attribute could increase the die sizes while skills grant fixed bonus.

Is imitating reality an important goal for this game?

Not too the extent it would make the game super crunchy. Primarily I wanted something that someone could learn in a few minutes but that allowed an infinite amount of flexibility.

With two different sets of dice, you can make a weak attribute + strong power character or vice versa.

I manage the breaking point/abuse of the system to some degree by setting maximum levels/modifiers by character type: Minion (maz score 8 no modifiers; 1/2 the cost), Hero (max score 12, +2 max modifier; normal cost) or Champion (max score 14, +4 modifier; 2x cost).