Raping the public...

[Tim C Koppang]

When's the PDF version of eight going up, anyway?  My fingers might skitter into my wallet for that one, budgetary constraints or no.

ggaaaaa!  drooooooool!  A finished and polished version of eight - oh boy oh boy.  I know it's not real yet, but I can hope.  Sign me up - I'll send you $10 for that any day.

[Clay]

Jared,

There are folks who were born to whine.  They seem to be thicker on the Internet than anywhere else, probably because of the false notion that you can't easily lay hands on them.  Most of these people wouldn't be willing to make those same statements in person, owing to the fact that they aren't willing to risk the pounding.  I mean, would you tell Scott Knipe that his game sucked to his face?  (not that I've met Scott, but there's a little known biological mechanism triggered by tilting your head far back to look up at someone that inspires good manners.)

Go watch Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back if the whiners get to you. I thought the movie had a great take on the subject.

[Lance D. Allen]

Though the topic seems pretty well done, I'll add a little bit to it..

Gamers will gripe and moan about the price of a game.. They'll gasp in shock at how much they're being overcharged for a game. They will walk out of the game store in a huff... then they will come back and shamelessly lay the money down on the counter. Someone else made this same point somewhere (I think it was Dav in one of the game price threads) and it's a truth. Gamers will gripe about the price, but they'll still pay. It's not a matter that they think it's too much. It's a matter of principle that just a book, with less paper content and ink than a heavy hardback novel is going to cost $35 (or that an information medium that doesn't even come on a disk is going to cost anything..) is going to cause complaints. But it doesn't mean that the product isn't worth it. It's not the format, it's not the size.. It's the content. Be happy, and ignore the gripes. People would still do it if you dropped it to $5.

[Dav]

Dav (that soulless capitalist!)

*blush*

Thank you.  You say the nicest things...

Dav
(I'm gonna get you something on your Amazon Wish List for this)

[hardcoremoose]

Clay Wrote:

I mean, would you tell Scott Knipe that his game sucked to his face? (not that I've met Scott, but there's a little known biological mechanism triggered by tilting your head far back to look up at someone that inspires good manners.)

Paul, are you reading this?  Clay makes good sense little man. ;)

And Clay, weren't you the one coming down to Ann Arbor with a baseball bat to de-program me?  I thought so.

Seriously, in regards to Jared's main point...I feel guilty getting my free copy.  Yeah, I wrote a couple supplements, but I screwed up and missed the cool GenCon game.  Missed getting my name is the credits, dammit.  So this year at GenCon I owe Jared a free meal or something.  Ten bucks...who the hell cares about ten bucks?

- Scott

[Clay]

And Clay, weren't you the one coming down to Ann Arbor with a baseball bat to de-program me?  I thought so.

Man, I've been slacking.  That's two things I owe Ron ;).  Based on an assesment of the subject there are three things that I'm going to need:

1. A dozen mates

2. A bigger bat

3. A fast getaway car

Since Scott has cleverly located himself in Ann Arbor, where I am perpetually distracted by restaurants and book stores, I think he's safe.

[Alex Gray]

In my opinion games cost WAY too much these days. Back in the day I went from those little ziplock bag games that were handmade impulse buys to hardcover monstrosities with poorly exploited color. Instead of comparing current game prices to things like meals at fast food joints I think it would be more useful to compare them to the price of video games. Sure, a $30  paper and pencil game is in the same ballpark as a recently released PC game (my brother just picked up Dungeon Siege for $30). take an homest look at the work that goes into both products. Sure, we work hard at creating our games but PC games have budgets that go into the millions and teams of very talented artists that provide an instantly accessible look and feel. A paper and pencil game may will provide more entertainment in the long run but the consumer has to do more of the work and if they are a gamer they already have a stack of systems so we have to be darn sure we are giving them a good value.

[Bob McNamee]

In my opinion games cost WAY too much these days. Back in the day I went from those little ziplock bag games that were handmade impulse buys to hardcover monstrosities with poorly exploited color. Instead of comparing current game prices to things like meals at fast food joints I think it would be more useful to compare them to the price of video games. Sure, a $30  paper and pencil game is in the same ballpark as a recently released PC game (my brother just picked up Dungeon Siege for $30). take an homest look at the work that goes into both products. Sure, we work hard at creating our games but PC games have budgets that go into the millions and teams of very talented artists that provide an instantly accessible look and feel. A paper and pencil game may will provide more entertainment in the long run but the consumer has to do more of the work and if they are a gamer they already have a stack of systems so we have to be darn sure we are giving them a good value.

Gasoline in America is very inexpensive too. But that's not necessarily because other countries overprice/ tax, it also because in those countries there are many many fewer drivers than in the U.S.  Companies here can sell cheaper and still make a lot. Likewise with Console/ computer games, and videos etc. Many people buy these, companies can afford the lower per item profit because they are selling Many items...leading to a happy amount of income.  Relatively few people buy RPG's, fewer yet the Indies.  They are priced cheaply in my opinion.  When I make art objects for sale I price it to my target market, based on my profit need, and the work I've put in.

Bob McNamee

[Alex Gray]

Don't get me wrong - I think a well designed and professionally presented game is worth $20 to $30. Personally - I think anything higher than $30 is highway robbery. I don't think most of the $20 to $40 supplements are worth anywhere near that much. I can walk out of Half Price books out here in Austin with a bag full of fiction that has far more substance for that much. I can see several movies or rent even more. In my opinion one of the reasons games sell in modest quantities is the price. Inexpensive games have been tried but they are often not as attractive as the $40 monsters so they don't offer compelling sales figures. If an indie game that is likely to be played a few times is going to succeed I think it has to come in somewhere between $12 and $24. A rack of indie games with the same price range as high end tech magazines would clear out much more quickly than books that favor "competitive pricing". When I ran Pariah Press we sold the Whispering Vault for $20 and I was convinced it was too expensive but it moved pretty well. I think a $30 price tag would have killed it dead.

[Jason L Blair]

Alex,

Bob is right on with what he's saying. Truth is, I couldn't have sold Little Fears for any less without ending up negative at final tally. If RPGs had a wider fanbase, then maybe publishers could charge less for their goods. But fact is, the pen and paper RPG market is tiny. Publishers have to take a good hard (and realistic) look at their investment and potential return and price accordingly. Sure, we'd all like games to be $5, but it's not going to happen. It can't happen. Not without a customer base explosion to the size of the computer game market (or, hell, the action figure market).


Hey... you responded while I was writing this...

To address what you just said, high end tech magazines have the luxury of advertising. Why can PCMagazine and WIRED charge what they do for each issue? Because Dell, MS, Gateway, Palm, and all the rest are dropping high 4 figures for an ad. Game publishers are barely surviving as is. Supplements are high because of the fact that they're going to be lucky to move the print run. Publishers supplement lines to keep their main game in consumers' (and retailers' and distributors') minds. But those supplements are, generally, not going to pay for themselves. If they don't supplement, however, the game line is considered "dead" and the two other tiers in the retail game forget who you are.

[Alex Gray]

I am painfully aware of the obstacles that face independent publishers. It is obvious that many have risen admirably to the challenge. New technologies offer new solutions. In my experience - where there is a will there is a way. I realize that we could all afford to charge less if we could be sure that we would move more copies but I don't think we are going to build that audience by giving them anything short of the most we can for the lowest possible price. There is nothing wrong with trying to make a profit but there are a lot of ways to go about it. For example - establishing a line with a loss leader then offering support with a higher margin will reward your investment by building goodwill with your fan base. Free or cheap PDF demos are a terrific idea. The printing Co-Op on the resource page is brilliant. None of this is news to any of you I'm sure so I'm sorry if it seems preachy. I just don't think there us any reason to break the $30 barrier. Expensive games hurt all of us. I think the gamers who shell ut that kind of cash have every right to complain.

[Jason L Blair]

I think the gamers who shell ut that kind of cash have every right to complain.

If the gamers shell out the cash, they have no right to complain.* If they really have a problem with it, they shouldn't buy it. Their purchase is a strobing green light that, yes, the market will bear the price.


*If their sole squabble is with the price. Content, on the other hand, remains a viable impetus for bitchery.

[Alex Gray]

Just took a look at Little Fears. Very, very nice and solid price point. Not at all the kind of thing that worries me. $20 is a completely reasonable price for that kind of work. There are folks who would have gone higher while spouting "whatever the market will bear". Anyone who bitches about the price point in this case should be tossed into an industrial size washing machine with a handful of jacks.

[Jason L Blair]

Alex,

Just so you don't think I'm jumping on you, I agree that games should be priced fairly. Personally, I like the $20 mark. But games that offer a lot more content than Little Fears, for example, should be priced accordingly. That's what people are paying for in the pen-and-paper market: content. And it's a funky kind of content in that it must provide the user with story ideas (or plot ideas at least) and give them the tools to cooperatively write a story.



And, thank you, by the way for the LF compliment.

[Alex Gray]

Personally, I think "what the market will bear" is a terrible way to do business but it is a political stand with me that stretches far beyond RPGs and the games industry. Any further discussion will end up devolving (evolving?) into a debate about economic theory. Let's just say I prefer to charge what something is worth (if possible) and I will only buy products that are fairly priced and traded (unless I have no choice - as in the artificially manipulated gasoline market that was previously mentioned).