All's quiet... version 3

[JSDiamond]

I've smoothed the system down, doing the following:

::Using 3d4
::Condensing the modifiers to a range of  +0 to +3
::Condensing the environments down to a range of 4 (down from six to eight).

Much smoother IMO.  Check it out.

http://www.orbit-rpg.com/alls_Quiet_version3x.pdf

[TonyLB]

Do you have specific questions that could help focus us (in reading the text) on the parts where you could benefit from alternate viewpoints, or creative kibbitzing?

[JSDiamond]

What I'd like to know is if the rules are clear enough.  Does it make sense? Would a thief-heavy game be fun to play?
And of course I am hopeful that it will be play-tested, with any and all feedback wanted and appreciated.

     

[TonyLB]

Okay, I'm gonna go read this.  But, at the same time, I'd like to point out (in as non-whiny a manner as possible) how much this doesn't look, at first blush, like a rewarding activity to me.  Either I:

• Read a game which makes sense, and then don't get to contribute anything other than saying "Yep, that makes sense," or I ...
• Read a game which confuses the heck out of me, and then need to figure it out enough to ask questions about what confuses me.

I know that sometimes you're at a point where all you can think is "I'm done ... now I need a breath of fresh air in the form of feedback," and I support you asking for that feedback.  I'm just saying that it makes it hard on us to respond.

[TonyLB]

Okay.  Worked my way through it.  The rules seem sensible.

A lot of how interesting this game would be depends on what kind of choices you expect the players to make.  I've played (for instance) the old Thief computer games, so I get a good vibe of what you're saying in terms of balancing darkness, noise, motion, patterns of guards and all that.  But ... Thief has optimal paths, and finding those optimal paths is part of the fun of the game.  Is that what you're aiming for in this game?  Or something else?

[JSDiamond]

But, at the same time, I'd like to point out (in as non-whiny a manner as possible) how much this doesn't look, at first blush, like a rewarding activity to me.

I understand that; I confess I just don't know what kinds of questions to ask at this point.  I would like input and I will apply it.  For example: The reduction in math was brought up earlier.  So, I've done that while keeping the mechanic intact.     

Thief has optimal paths, and finding those optimal paths is part of the fun of the game.  Is that what you're aiming for in this game?

 
That's exactly what I'm going for.  It occured to me that in Thief you always know what those paths are immediately by sight; you can see a marble floor, a deep shadow, a lit torch, etc.  And you know your visibility by a gem on the screen and noise by your rate of movement.  So the choices and risks are the player's to make.  Garret (via your decisions) doesn't make mistakes --he can only choose degrees of risky actions.  But he's a pro.  And guards don't act coy when they notice something's amiss.

Goals of playing the game:
Have fun amassing swag.
Fighting/fleeing guards
Magic, etc.
Adventure

System goal:
To do all of the above while feeling like a *real* professional thief in a fantasy setting, in a way (via the system) that's much more immersive than "hiding in shadows, and roll every ten feet traveled."  All's quiet... is IMO how an RPG should be with regard to a thief, or any other pro for that matter.  Why?  Because if the target of a character's actions offered no resistance --then the character would always win.  So, the only way a character should ever fail is by the target's reactions and that's not within a character's control. 

I realize I'm all over the place.  I'm just trying to find a bearing.
   

[TonyLB]

To do all of the above while feeling like a *real* professional thief in a fantasy setting, in a way (via the system) that's much more immersive than "hiding in shadows, and roll every ten feet traveled."  All's quiet... is IMO how an RPG should be with regard to a thief, or any other pro for that matter.  Why?  Because if the target of a character's actions offered no resistance --then the character would always win.  So, the only way a character should ever fail is by the target's reactions and that's not within a character's control.

Okay.  Well, it's almost cruel (in a helpful way, I hope) to do this, but ... let me point out that while the strength of the opposition is, in some sense, within the character's control.  Even more, it is within the player's control.

Why?  Well, they chose to go out and rob a building tonight, right?  They (presumably) even chose a hard one, because they're not a pansy.

You could (if you so chose) play a game where the player is the one trying to make the challenge as hard as possible, because with great challenge comes great reward.  The GM is trying to give him all the breaks, because after all this guy is a professional.  But every time the GM gives him a break, the player counters with some new challenge he's seeking out, or new restriction he's placed on himself, to keep the challenge level nice and high.

This is very much the realm of the thief so good that he deliberately leaves a calling card at the scene of his crimes, or announces the jewels he plans to steal and the time he plans to steal them to the police.  These are the guys so crazy-good that if they didn't seek out harder, more dangerous tasks they'd never face a challenge in their lives that had a chance of meaning anything to them.

Is that anything you're interested in including in your game?

[JSDiamond]

Well, they chose to go out and rob a building tonight, right?  They (presumably) even chose a hard one, because they're not a pansy... the player is the one trying to make the challenge as hard as possible, because with great challenge comes great reward.  The GM is trying to give him all the breaks, because after all this guy is a professional.  But every time the GM gives him a break, the player counters with some new challenge he's seeking out, or new restriction he's placed on himself, to keep the challenge level nice and high.

Oh my... that is wonderful!  I'm not joking. I feel like you have just cleaned the windshield I've been driving behind for the last 800 miles, and I can only now see clearly where I thought I was going.  And then you added...

These are the guys so crazy-good that if they didn't seek out harder, more dangerous tasks they'd never face a challenge in their lives that had a chance of meaning anything to them.

Which makes the Status reward shine like stolen coins. 

You're a genius. Yes, these are all things I am very interested in including.
I'm going back to the drawing board and I'm going back happy.

[TonyLB]

I'm going back to the drawing board and I'm going back happy.

Oh good!  I look forward to the results.