Transparency again

[Le Joueur]

I get you now. That makes sense, and I agree. Do I understand you to mean that "internalization" is the, if you will, personal experience of rendering a game system Coherent?

And thus Coherent game design is that which makes that internalization occur most consistently, especially in terms of the group dynamic (once the personal becomes the social).

Just change it to, "Internalization is the unconscious personal experience of rendering a game system coherent (according to Ron Edwards)."

I think that 'consciously internalized' anythings would be a contradiction of terms.

Fang Langford

p. s. Sorry for dragging out the sub-thread.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey Fang,

All good! With me, I mean.

Back to transparency ....?

Best,
Ron

[Andrew Martin]

Andrew, what I'm interested in is whether you see any reason for the term "Transparency" to exist, given my term Coherence in my essay. Given that Coherence is a direct outcome of real people interacting with one another and the game system in question, and given its definition - to achieve Exploration of Setting, Character, System, Situation, and Color in light of a shared Premise (of whatever GNS variety, including combinations) ... then it seems to me that your definition, above, is already accounted for: transparent = Coherent game design, with absolutely no other specification of particular qualities.

I've reread Ron's essay on GNS. I think Transparent is basically another name for what Coherent gives. Like Blake wrote, Transparent/Opaque is a barrier-like term, while Coherent/Incoherent is at 90 degrees as it were. So I feel that Transparent/Opaque as a special term for RPG design can be easily dropped. I have no special attachment to it now.

But this leads to another thing. I dislike character sheets with numbers on them, I'd prefer to have a character sheet that has a written description and history on it, and players should be able to use that description as game system "values" with the help of game system guidelines/rules. Should there be a special name for this? Is there a special name for this? Am I just confused? Any suggestions?

[Ron Edwards]

Wow!

Oh my God, I think we have just had one of those valid-discourse Forge discussions. Thank you thank you, everyone. Plus helping me with the range of some very trenchant RPG'ing variables.

Andrew wrote,
"I dislike character sheets with numbers on them, I'd prefer to have a character sheet that has a written description and history on it, and players should be able to use that description as game system "values" with the help of game system guidelines/rules. Should there be a special name for this? Is there a special name for this? Am I just confused? Any suggestions?"

H'm. Let me break the options down further.

1) Classical situation: numbers on the character sheet, numbers used by player and GM during play for resolutions, etc. Examples: a bezillion.

2) "Hybrid" situation: no numbers on the character sheet, just descriptors, but numbers do exist in the game and are used by the GM alone during play for resolutions, etc. Example: Fudge, Castle Falkenstein.

3) Kozmik situation: no numbers on the character sheet or anywhere else, other means employed by GM and player during play for resolutions, etc. Example: Puppetland.

Andrew, are you speaking only of #3 (which is a big-deal game design thing) or of #2 (which is more of a GM/player distinction and handling-management thing)?

From your perspective, is #2 a version of #1, or is it a version of #3? Or are they three distinct things?

Best,
Ron

[Andrew Martin]

Wow!

Oh my God, I think we have just had one of those valid-discourse Forge discussions. Thank you thank you, everyone. Plus helping me with the range of some very trenchant RPG'ing variables.

Andrew wrote,
"I dislike character sheets with numbers on them, I'd prefer to have a character sheet that has a written description and history on it, and players should be able to use that description as game system "values" with the help of game system guidelines/rules. Should there be a special name for this? Is there a special name for this? Am I just confused? Any suggestions?"

H'm. Let me break the options down further.

1) Classical situation: numbers on the character sheet, numbers used by player and GM during play for resolutions, etc. Examples: a bezillion.

2) "Hybrid" situation: no numbers on the character sheet, just descriptors, but numbers do exist in the game and are used by the GM alone during play for resolutions, etc. Example: Fudge, Castle Falkenstein.

3) Kozmik situation: no numbers on the character sheet or anywhere else, other means employed by GM and player during play for resolutions, etc. Example: Puppetland.

Andrew, are you speaking only of #3 (which is a big-deal game design thing) or of #2 (which is more of a GM/player distinction and handling-management thing)?

From your perspective, is #2 a version of #1, or is it a version of #3? Or are they three distinct things?

Best,
Ron

#2 can be part of both #1 and #3, depending upon the actions of the players, whether they use addition/subtraction and use the numbers under the word scale of Fudge or number equivalent to attribute in CF.
#3; or they use the scale which not addition/subtraction in Fudge.

Continued in this thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1934