[The Beast Within] Ideas

[TroyLovesRPG]

Elishar,

Do some research. Read the Bible. The Internet is at your fingertips.

I just realized why everyone thinks they have the ultimate RPG game (or just game) that is better and more unique than any other game: because no one takes the time to READ, play related games out there or does the minimal research to explore the subject of their game.

Check out Nobilis, In Nomine, Call of Cthulhu, Nephilim, D&D (when it was really good), Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Stormbringer, Chill and Kult. There are plenty of games that can do exactly what you want to do. Just pick one and enjoy it.

Troy

p.s. Was it me typing or the Devil?

[Thunder_God]

Specifically Demon: the Fallen, Hunter, Werewolf and Mage from White-Wolf. Vampire mostly for politics.

[Anders Larsen]

The problems with grimoires and other old occult texts, is that they are not very descriptive, and they can even contradict each other. So it have not been possible for me to find more information on the different spirits in the books.

But on wikipedia I found descriptions on Agaliarept and Satanachia. The other inferior spirits are not described there. I also found a list of demons and classification of demons.

The spirits from the Lesser Key of Solomon the King can also be found online here: http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/demon_goetia.asp. And these can be very interesting.

But while all this can be good inspiration, I don't think that you should use it too directly in your game. In a game I would believe it works better if the demonic hierarchy is dynamic, so demons can gain and lose power. And it may affect the Marked when 'his demon' changes place in the hierarchy.

Maybe the demon hierarchy have something to do with real world events. So what the Marked do in the real world can affect the demons which then can affect the Marked.

- Anders

[Elishar]

Troy:
Yeah, don't talk to me like I'm a child.  If you have something constructive, say it respectfully or don't post in my thread.  I'm obviously posting in this tread because I've already check out all the sources I can find and have come up pretty empty handed so I've turned to the collective wisdom of the forum.  I've already read the Bible and I don't want to skim through the 1000+ pages again to find a few isolated references to what I'm looking for.  Let's be reasonable here.  I've already played Vampire, Mage, Cthulu, Werewolf, and D&D.  Where do you think I got my inspiration from?  Seriously, don't talk when you obviously don't have a clue who you're talking to.

I'm fine with constructive criticism about my game or its design but when you personally attack me you've crossed the line.

Anders:
Oh, I plan on making demon society very dynamic.  I'm just looking for some mythological references for the founding demons of each clan.  I'd like to be true to mythology but it seems that there isn't much info to go on and what we do have is very vague or even contradictory at times.  I already saw the list of demons and it didn't really provide me with anything except a few names I could possibly use.  However, I'd like to use the names properly.  For instance, I don't want to name my demon of violence the name of a demon normally associated with corruption or temptation.

[TroyLovesRPG]

Elishar,

I apologize for posting that reply. I'm simply amazed that you cannot find the information you wanted and I judged that too quickly. I coupled that with your posts which was general in wanting demon clans (because they make sense?) without giving us specifics of your game and what you have already researched. You're giving us your version of how you think people are "marked" by demon DNA and there seems to be no real world reference to that. The lack of information you provide but your need for it from the members hit me the wrong way. Anders and other members have provided you with great information and it is important that you give something back.

Of course I don't know you, so please, don't take all of this personally.

The constructive part:

The idea of demons is older than organized religions and involves nature more than a celestial realm.
http://demons.monstrous.com/origin_of_the_devil.htm

The Old and New Testaments give information on angels and demons. This explains the hierarchy and organization of heaven in terms that people understand.
http://www.heart7.net/spirit/aapp1.html

More information on angels and organization.
http://www.heart7.net/spirit/aapp2.html

You will notice that most angelic names have Hebrew origins and the name is actually defined. Demon names could have their origins in Hebrew, Unk, Sumerian, Russian, Chinese, and the list goes on. Apparently, demons (or the myths surrounding manifested spirits) exist in all early cultures.
http://fast.horrorseek.com/horror/adoptademon/demonnames.html
http://www.angelsghosts.com/underworld_demons.html
http://www.raven-glass.com/vlad/demon.html

Some people believe that the world is influenced directly by witches and demons. Witches could be "marked". A link showing one organization of hell and how each division is responsible for certain aspects of the world.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1062.html

Even the word demon comes from the Greek word "daemon" meaning "genius and intelligence". Review the discussions of philosophers concerning daemons and their roles.
http://www.theandros.com/daemon.html

With all of this information you may be able to create your clans of demons. There are various versions of demons, names and hierarchies. You can choose to use one or all of them. Its possible that the confusion and skepticism surrounding demons is part of the demonic agenda. All of this is mythology and changes along with civilization throughout history. That could be an explanation for the dynamic clans. As demon "princes" take seats of power, they reorganize the hierarchy just as feudal societies do. Its possible with the new millennium there is a new demon coming to power and its goal is to follow in the footsteps of human society. The new structure matches the advances in human civilization and is more able to affect the real world. The marked are now more susceptible to the demon presence and there is a surge in power among them.

I doubt you will find an ultimate source that gives you exactly what you need. As you do more research you may find that you need to change your game to make it mythologically accurate.

Troy

[Elishar]

That information was helpful but most of it seemed to be word for word copies of other sites I have seen.  The internet, as amazing as it is, has a lot of regurgitation in it.  I appreciate all the links though.

I'm thinking that I'm not going to find what I'm looking for if I haven't found it yet.  Perhaps a better way to organize the clans would be based on type of demon instead of the demon that founded them.  Off the top of my head I can think of two clans already: Succubi (temping demons) and Mephits (elemental control demons.)  I could easily mine my Monster Manual for more names but that seems a bit uncreative from my point of view.  I spent some type searching on demon types but I mainly just got more of the same regurgitated lists and about 1,000 pages dealing on demonic possession.

If anyone has any other general groups of demons that they know of off the top of their head let me know.  I'm thinking of including Babau (assassin demons) and Balors (brute demons) as clans as well but I haven't decided yet.

[Thunder_God]

I'll say it again. Look into In Nomine.

[TroyLovesRPG]

Thunder,
I agree with you in referencing In Nomine. It provides the most succint view of Heaven, Hell, angels, demons and the structure of politics and power. I miss my copy.

Elishar,
Many of the links don't have a table of information, but the demon entries often have descriptions of their domain and relationships with other demons. If you use a tree structure for your information you may be able to create a hierarchy that could suit your needs.

I found this link to have a lot of information:
http://www.raven-glass.com/vlad/
Of course, it is someone's personal website dedicated to gaming interests. The owner took the time to research demons and compile a very comprehensive list. I found it very complete and useful.

Troy

[Elishar]

I'll see if I can track down a copy of In Nomine.

I spend a couple hours looking through demon names and started trying to organize them but I quickly ended up with 15+ demons all with the same powers.  Meanwhile, I couldn't seem to find demons in other areas.  Some of the entries were very useful but most ended up being "he commands ____ legions in hell and holds the title of _____."  That's all nice but it isn't what I'm looking for.

I think that ultimately I will want to flesh out a complete demon hierarchy but that isn't core to the game.  I really just need to establish the demonic clans and how exactly each of them is different from the others.  I'm thinking of starting small, maybe 4-6 clans.  Like I said earlier, Succubi and Mephits are easy choices and Babaus and Balors are definite possibilities but I can't think of much else.

Each demonic clan has a specialized role in their interaction with the humans.  If any of you can think of another way the demons could screw with the humans bring it up and I should be able to find a way to make a clan out of it.  Here's what I have so far.

Succubi: Responsible for tempting humans into sin and evil actions.  Use a variety of methods from seduction to promises of power and money.  They specialize in mental and illusory powers.

Mephits: Responsible for causing all sorts of "accidents" and natural disasters.  Generally views as the most mischievous of demons.  They specialize in control of the elements and matter manipulation.

Babaus: Demons specialized in assassination and coercion.  They generate the downfall of humanity by either silencing or assassinating anyone who shows promise of greatly changing the world for the good.

Balors: Known for their great strength and martial ability, Balors propagate violence, war, and hatred in wherever they can.  Often times they will do everything in their power to prolong a conflict as long as possible to cause the greatest amount of pain and suffering.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Well, I think you are being pulled in two opposite directions:
1) You want demons to to be wild untamed forces. Randomly seeded and arbitrarily thrown together. This is not a prob as this is VERY demonic
2) You want them to be organized and have a role or purpose in the metaphysics of your world, Also acceptable, these are traits that will tend to magnify their power.
  But, of course, these are contrary. I guess you have to pick from one of three roadly defined choices:
a) Make Demons anarchists or otherwise a "might makes right" mentality culture
b) Make Demons a hierarchy and have each serve a niche (one per sin, one per aspect of nature, etc.)
c) Some Demons are A and some are B and never the twain shall meet
  Also, to get back to an question raised earlier, what is your game about? I don't mean what is the cover copy, but what is  the theme. What do you see as the core struugle of the game? It feels  like responsibility vs. power. Is that right? If so, it might better highlight this through having a spectrum:
1) Hunters have powerful items, and a responsibility to hunt demons
2) Civilians - no power, no real responsibility
3) Marked - Burgeoning power and a responsibility tochoose a side
4) Demons - Gain power by assuming responsibility in their clan

  Maybe something like that?

[Elishar]

Well, demons are definently wild creatures but even the most wild of creatures realize the importance of survival which is why demons band into clans.  As a clan leader determines which demons he is going to accept into his ranks you wind up with lots of demons with similar abilities that help fufill the goals of the clan.

Responsibility vs. Power is a very big theme in my game but I think an even bigger theme I want to incorporate is "just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you should do it."  For instance, a Hunter could easily kill a child infected by a demonic soul but is it morally right to do so?  A Marked could easily use their powers to save people but is it worth the cost?  A demon could backstab his superior and steal his powers but what would the fallout be?  All characters in this game will have incredible power and so the real question is how you use your power.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  I am not trying to be rude, but frankly, I don't buy it. So, lets say there is a clan of ice demons, and they encounter a fairly powerful Fire demon that does not have a clan. I find it hard to believe that they would not want him in their clan just because it doesn't fit their theme...
  Now if the Demons were planting the seeds, then I see a obvious reason for a specializeddomain.
  Its probably just me, maybe there is a point I am not getting, but it just feels off to me...

[Elishar]

Well, no demon without a clan would be powerful.  When a Marked first becomes a full fledged demon, they are pretty much a baby in their power level.  Without a clan that accepts them, they would be killed quickly for the minimal power boost they would provide another demon.  From the clan's perspective, they don't need to accept the demon and probably won't accept the demon unless it has a very similar worldview to them and powers that complement their clan.

Additionally, the demons know when they infect a human (even though they infect humans without any additional effort) and thus those demons might watch to see when the Marked turns into a demon and then approach them with the proposition to join their clan to increase their numbers.  They may require such an initiated demon to past a test before being able to join the clan with failure resulting in death (which the demons don't mind because it increases their power.)

Clans basically act as a form of protection for weaker demons and a source to spread influence for greater demons.  You can think of them similar to mobs.  The Italian mob is most likely not going to accept an Irishman into their "family" unless he has a really distinguished record.  Conversely, the same Irishman is most likely going to try and join the Irish mob before he joins the Italian mob.

[Thunder_God]

Why don't they "Seed" all of Humanity then?

Demons need to get something out of humanity. They get power from other Demons they feed off of, Humanity is there as a herd to recruit from.

If "Seeding" does not take any effort, then why don't they seed dozens if not hundreds of people? Even a minor demon who seeds 300-1000 people is sure to turn into a power to be reckoned with.
I think you should limit Seeding, make it into a Pyramid scheme, which also gives more of a reason for a powerful Demon not to kill all underlings. Each Demon could seed Power Level*3 people, for example.

[Anders Larsen]

Ideas for clans:

Demons of infections and diseases.
Demons of decay and rot.
Demons of insanity and madness.
Demons of fire and lightning.
Demons of deformations.
Demons of smoke and darkness.
Demons of void and nothingness.
Demons of beasts and wildness.

- Anders