[KRASNOARMEETS] Making miniatures easy

[James Holloway]

OK, it's been a little while since I talked about progress on my Ronnies entry from back in the day, Krasnoarmeets. You can check out the previous discussion of it in these threads:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=17629.0 and
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18198.0

As you can see, the game has miniatures and terrain very much at its center. Now, I know a lot of people find painting miniatures daunting, but I bet the ritualized, everyone-pitches-in nature of character creation will sway them a bit. I am a little worried about terrain, though. Making miniatures terrain is a pain in the ass. I've been thinking lately about paper miniatures.

If, like me, you haven't been keeping up with recent developments in papercrafts, modern paper miniatures are really nice. Check out stuff like Paper Tiger Armaments: http://www.papertigerarmaments.com/T34-85.html. Very attractive and inexpensive. I make a lot of my gaming terrain myself out of cereal box card and $.99 craft paints, but you can also get building models and stuff online, like this one: http://www.alternaterealms.co.uk/card%20models%20images/house.jpg. There's a cracking list of them here: http://www.miniaturewargaming.com/index.php/mwg/category/Paper%20Figs%20Terrain/P0/

Now, none of the houses you can get online look sufficiently Russian for me. And I think that you could make pretty much everything a Krasnoarmeets game needs out of card: some crude barricades, couple of burnt-out buildings, zemlyanki, that kind of thing. Maybe a ruined Orthodox monastery, although heaven knows how you'd make a paper onion dome. You could even make trees and shrubs, although they might not be as 3-D as I'd like.

I know some of you guys have expressed reservations about the setup effort needed to produce a game of Krasnoarmeets. Would this go some way toward overcoming it? Like if there were an electronic resource of terrain and suchlike you could just print out? I'm thinking of trying my hand at producing something like that. It might be included in the game proper, or sold apart.

Thoughts? I don't want to prefabricate everything for the group, but I'm assuming that as they grow in confidence they'll start making their own terrain.

[Bryan Hansel]

Like if there were an electronic resource of terrain and suchlike you could just print out? I'm thinking of trying my hand at producing something like that. It might be included in the game proper, or sold apart.

Either a electronic resource to print or something to photocopy that is included in the book is ideal.  If you go this route, you might consider including enough in the game to photocopy for a game to work, then include a slightly bigger selection online, and, finally, a greater selection that can be purchased later.

[Ben Lehman]

How about a little pack of 100 square cards that we can build a map out of?

yrs--
--Ben

[komradebob]

How about a little pack of 100 square cards that we can build a map out of?

Wouldn't that depend on how little they were? I could see that being vastly more annoying in actual play that the terrain would be to construct.

James:
I think that absolutely anything you can do to make a would-be player's life easier is the right thing to do.

Pre-printed paper models included with the rules is a great plan. If you could swing it at a price that wouldn't kill your profits, a cd with the patterns might be a very cool thing to include in addition to print outs.

Paper miniatures though? Yegads! OK, that's just me being a snob. Seriously, probably a very nice thing to include.

[MatrixGamer]

If you are thinking of going the paper figure route you should contact Guy McLimore at Microtactics. He puts out a large assortment of fold up buildings, etc. A few years ago I played in a Godzilla game in which we tore buildings up as we played. I know Guy has put out a Stargate SG-1 Stargate, which one has to marvel at. He is a fount of information. Let him know I sent you, he's a friend.

his email is <guymc@MicroTactix.com>

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

[Sydney Freedberg]

I played Warhammer (fantasy wargame, not 40k, not RPG) with homemade paper counters -- little icons like a symplified battle standard, printed out and cut out so each counter was the same size as the base of the miniature it replaced. Of the three of us who played on and off (so, hardly hardcore), I think only one of us ever painted anything. Which makes us hideous blasphemers, of course, but shows there are people out there who'd do it -- and who would love cool printable designs available online or as pay-for-PDF.

Painted metal miniatures are wicked cool but constitute a big "barrier to entry" that limits your audience to a hardcore of the hardcore: The more low-investment (of money, of time) options you offer, the more people will play your game.

Note that I'm talking about the actual units here, not terrain: All we did for terrain was scrawl on a piece of paper "woods" in green magic marker or "lake" in blue. The idea of building model terrain just boggles me... but, again, make it something I can buy and fold together in five minutes, or print out? Different story.

[komradebob]

If you are thinking of going the paper figure route you should contact Guy McLimore at Microtactics. He puts out a large assortment of fold up buildings, etc.

I'll second the recommendation. I was just using his freebie sample building in a ACW 1/72 game yeaterday afternoon. Good, simple, sturdy models with realistic artwork.

[MatrixGamer]

You know if you want to do something very different you might try providing the players with an assortment of stamps that they can use to make their own cardboard counters - and an assortment of terrain symbols so they can print maps (possibly as the game is being played!)

I toyed with an idea like that in the 80's. I was making little home made counters with woodblock stamps and lino cuts. I could see someone making rubber stamps to do the same thing. I know I've seen stamps like this over the years but never packaged with a game.

Just a wild thought...

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

[James Holloway]

You know if you want to do something very different you might try providing the players with an assortment of stamps that they can use to make their own cardboard counters - and an assortment of terrain symbols so they can print maps (possibly as the game is being played!)

I toyed with an idea like that in the 80's. I was making little home made counters with woodblock stamps and lino cuts. I could see someone making rubber stamps to do the same thing. I know I've seen stamps like this over the years but never packaged with a game.

Just a wild thought...

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

I'd buy that. You can get a set of stamps that have dungeon-type features, as well as a roller that you ink and use to create stone walls, all for use on the wet-erase battlemats people use for D&D. But that's probably just a little too abstract for Krasnoarmeets. The physicality of it is way too important to me.

[J Tolson]

Personally, I like the idea of physical terrain that a player can see, but then again I used to make my own paper models from scratch when I was younger. Creating the physical terrain is essentially a craft, which is perfectly fine except that you will (I assume) market your game to gamers, who may or may not be crafty individuals. If the gamer in question doesn't like crafts, then anything will prevent them from actually getting to the game. Thus, the easier you can make set, the more players you will have.

That said, it might be useful to include simple models with the game and more complex versions else where (like online, on a CD, or as a separate book). For example, the "tree" that comes with the game might be nothing more than a cone with a picture of a tree on it, but the tree that comes in the supplementary book might actually have a trunk, branches, etc. Another thing that you might want to consider is ensuring that the terrain models are module. That is, instead of making a pull mountain, players might make several rocky surfaces that would then attach to a frame in order to make a mountain. This would then allow them to quickly re-arrange the surface (or the frame) for different affects. That mountain could easily turn into a cliff or a rocky ravine (well, easily for the player but a headache for the designer). Heck, for added details it wouldn't be too difficult to make doors, windows, beams, and other aspects of a building as separate models that then could attach to the main model, probably by thumb tacks.

Good luck and I look on in eager anticipation to see what you finally decide on.

[TroyLovesRPG]

Paper miniatures and terrain are a great way to make a game accessible. I remember painting dozens of miniatures for a WH40K game and then hated the game (I sold the miniatures). Paper would have been so easy to print and destroy!

Your comment on the Russian onion dome made me think about how to do that. I'm sure Buckminster Fuller could do it.

Since your forms may be simple, its probably better to use bold colors and patterns. Instead of printing or stamping patterns, just use colorful paper in the correct weight. I'm not really sure what the cost differences are between printing on cheap index or buying the patterns you need. A possible solution is to create basic cut-n-fold designs (without fills) to print on any paper.''

I can imagine a propaganda poster theme, where all the patterns are surreal and bold. This may give a nice background for the action. Miniatures could be posters symbolizing their unit information with silhouettes of marching soldiers, equipment, etc. Similar to seeing Roman legions from afar with banners and recognizable shapes sans details.

I always liked the use of terrain and buildings, but hated fussing over the rules regarding them. I think just printing some coded numbers on the actual pieces could save a lot of time. Do the same with your units. Use a sandwich board design and print the appropriate stats on the back of the unit card. Hmm. That gives me an idea on my current game design.

The map could be a simple green felt mat with other colored fabrics (representing different terrain features) layed on top. Colorforms!

Troy