Raid Earth

[Gary "Grail" Condra]

Hi this is one of the systems I'm working on at the moment and it's got me stumped, I've got some idea's and combat done but I can't find a starting place for most of it... Anyway here's the idea:

Main Idea: Zombies are only species on Earth apart from wild animals and plant life, modern weapons have been outlawed and made into medieval weapons, food refuses to grow in space on the stations they now live in so many crews man the only dropship to the zombie infested world below to brave the zombies to bring back much needed supplies. Only one person can fly the dropship (the GM) and he brief's them about where their going, how long they have and how infested the area is.

Anyway this is the bare idea without my combat system (I'll put that up later).

[MarkDunder]

Is RPG or mini game?  Make better mini game.

[sean2099]

Hi Grail

I would like to help you but I am not sure you are stumped.  So let me understand your premises by restating it in my terms.  You are creating a game in the "zombie" subgenre (fair enough.)  I am reading between the lines here but I assume whatever remanent of mankind that lives does so in outer space. (with the right technology, possible.) 

I am questioning the "outlawing" of modern weapons.  Do you mean only nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction?  Or do you mean everything inventing since 1500 or so?  If you mean the former, ok (don't want to destory planet along with zombies)  If you mean the latter, I am having a problem seeing the logic behind this idea.  How would they fight zombies off and etc. 

I can't the name of the game (I think it was "Prime Time" where it is was set in the Star Trek Universe and adventures started with a "briefing.")  I am sure a lot of people wouldn't mind the setup as described but that was the one thing I disliked about that game.  Not every situition gives you the time needed for meetings and discussions. (but again only my personal opinion.)

I can see going back to Earth to get supplies and such.  I can also see having the GM involved as a character (if only because finding players can be a hard thing to do and of course, the NPC thing).

That's my summation of your idea.  I hope I understood everything and have prompted you in a positive direction.

Sean

PS The guys and gals of the Forge like to use their rl first names.

[Gary "Grail" Condra]

Hi Grail

I would like to help you but I am not sure you are stumped.  So let me understand your premises by restating it in my terms.  You are creating a game in the "zombie" subgenre (fair enough.)  I am reading between the lines here but I assume whatever remanent of mankind that lives does so in outer space. (with the right technology, possible.) 

I am questioning the "outlawing" of modern weapons.  Do you mean only nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction?  Or do you mean everything inventing since 1500 or so?  If you mean the former, ok (don't want to destory planet along with zombies)  If you mean the latter, I am having a problem seeing the logic behind this idea.  How would they fight zombies off and etc. 

I can't the name of the game (I think it was "Prime Time" where it is was set in the Star Trek Universe and adventures started with a "briefing.")  I am sure a lot of people wouldn't mind the setup as described but that was the one thing I disliked about that game.  Not every situition gives you the time needed for meetings and discussions. (but again only my personal opinion.)

I can see going back to Earth to get supplies and such.  I can also see having the GM involved as a character (if only because finding players can be a hard thing to do and of course, the NPC thing).

That's my summation of your idea.  I hope I understood everything and have prompted you in a positive direction.

Sean

PS The guys and gals of the Forge like to use their rl first names.

Hi Sean,

It is in the zombie sub-genre and yes the remaining humans live in space. I'll explain more so you can understand why I got rid of all modern weapons.... Modern weapons take lot's of metal to craft, including the ammo so to preserve what little metal wasn't needed on the station it was melted down and made into medieval weapons to prolong the weapons lives but modern weapons can occassionally be found on the surface in the hands of/on a zombie. Also guns make a lot of noise and would attract the dead hence another reason why modern weapons were outlawed. Also my idea having the GM as the pilot was so that the flight down to the surface was full of useful information rather then just waiting in your seat bored until you land, although I may offer an alternative method but I'm not sure yet.

Anyway my main problem is with structuring the rulebook and linking parts together (this is my first I normally just play or GM pre-made. Then again I mess around with some of my combat systems every now and then). You've given me a couple of things to think about with the game/system so I may tweak the parts I have but I'm stilling missing around half the stuff you normally find in roleplay systems of this sub-genre.

Thanks for the help and hope I cleared up a few things, this sytem is going to be a free one so if you want to add something to it or take something out let me know I'll do it.

Cheers,

Grail.

P.S: Grail is my preferred name but I can chang it if need be.

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

Another good reason to outlaw metal-based projectile weapons is to safeguard the life support systems on space-based craft. Slugthrowers + Space + (Dumb Ass OR Alcohol) = Decompression

However, I would take a different tack than "modern are illegal". For instance, why couldn't we use glass needle guns with drugs in them, to stun (non-undead) folks? Fast-setting foam guns--actually quite ideal in space: arrests victim and glues them into place so they don't drift about in microgravity. Net guns. Pretty much the most "modern" guns of our real-world time! Why not electrical weapons like tasers--uh, right: Electrical Discharges + Life Support Systems = Burnouts

(Aside: IMHO, nonlethal firearms are going to be the next kajillion dollar industry; long before space stations; and they will proliferate FAR wider than lethal firearms have; so there'd be a ton of development by the time your game world's era rolls around.)

So, I think there'd be a lot of non-noisy, non-metallic, yet modern weapons quickly developed in such a world. Focus on what the laws would actually try to prevent (noise, metal use, risks to life support) and get creative. There's a LOT of room for fun guns and weapon, without violating those rules, and it could add a sort of "post-apocalypse but not crappy" flavor to your items.

And, yep, there WILL be noisy, metal weapons all over the space station: found on Earth, smuggled up "just in case," cherished and hidden. Heck, that's a whole plot hook that a GM could run with. What the law wants and what actually happens are rarely in direct alignment. ;-)

HTH;
David

[Gary "Grail" Condra]

Another good reason to outlaw metal-based projectile weapons is to safeguard the life support systems on space-based craft. Slugthrowers + Space + (Dumb Ass OR Alcohol) = Decompression

However, I would take a different tack than "modern are illegal". For instance, why couldn't we use glass needle guns with drugs in them, to stun (non-undead) folks? Fast-setting foam guns--actually quite ideal in space: arrests victim and glues them into place so they don't drift about in microgravity. Net guns. Pretty much the most "modern" guns of our real-world time! Why not electrical weapons like tasers--uh, right: Electrical Discharges + Life Support Systems = Burnouts

(Aside: IMHO, nonlethal firearms are going to be the next kajillion dollar industry; long before space stations; and they will proliferate FAR wider than lethal firearms have; so there'd be a ton of development by the time your game world's era rolls around.)

So, I think there'd be a lot of non-noisy, non-metallic, yet modern weapons quickly developed in such a world. Focus on what the laws would actually try to prevent (noise, metal use, risks to life support) and get creative. There's a LOT of room for fun guns and weapon, without violating those rules, and it could add a sort of "post-apocalypse but not crappy" flavor to your items.

And, yep, there WILL be noisy, metal weapons all over the space station: found on Earth, smuggled up "just in case," cherished and hidden. Heck, that's a whole plot hook that a GM could run with. What the law wants and what actually happens are rarely in direct alignment. ;-)

HTH;
David

Hi David,

Thanks for the idea with the weapons I hadn't thought about those type of weapons before, I'm going to have to think about that but I love that idea.... Speaking of which you've just given an idea for a new career in the game, as well as new sytem rules to intergrate now. Thanks for the help and I hope to hear from you as I really like your ideas for the weapons system and weapons.

Cheers,

Grail

[sean2099]

I guess that was my main concern, just making an announcement that modern weapons were "illegal."  I believe the explanations provided by both of you more than adequately sum up the issue that would come up when players ask about weapons.

Sean

[joepub]

Another good reason to outlaw metal-based projectile weapons

You could also simply say that any metal must be turned into the Metal Recycling Board, which then uses it to create spaceship parts.

All weapons must be fiberglass, plastics, natural materials, etc.


And then, if you steal a shotgun from a zombie, you have a choice: Return it to the Metal Recycling Board for a cash remuneration, or keep an illegal weapon.

[Gary "Grail" Condra]

Another good reason to outlaw metal-based projectile weapons

You could also simply say that any metal must be turned into the Metal Recycling Board, which then uses it to create spaceship parts.

All weapons must be fiberglass, plastics, natural materials, etc.


And then, if you steal a shotgun from a zombie, you have a choice: Return it to the Metal Recycling Board for a cash remuneration, or keep an illegal weapon.

Hi,

Thanks for the idea of the recycling board I'll be working that in sometime and making a few roles based around that. Also I think I may make a black market for surface goods, as I can see that being very common place in the situation my role play is based in.

Thanks for the ideas,

Grail

[Eric J. Boyd]

Hi Grail,

Interesting premise, and I really like the ideas on alternative weapons and the recycling board the other folks have mentioned. I'm a little taken aback, though, by the idea you mentioned that food cannot be grown on the space stations, prompting the need for the supply raids on Earth. So do you see the primary missions being assaults on abandoned grocery stores, or maybe drops into the wilderness for hunting and gathering? Do you want the action to be primarily rural or urban?

Instead of focusing on food retrieval, what about focusing on bringing back metal (following up on the recycling board idea) or maybe water to keep hydroponic farms on the stations going? Or the characters could be a group devoted to raiding ruined cities for artifacts and looking for scatered survivors of the zombie apocalypse.

I look forward to seeing the system you've got in mind.

Cheers,

Eric

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

Instead of focusing on food retrieval, what about focusing on bringing back metal (following up on the recycling board idea) or maybe water to keep hydroponic farms on the stations going? Or the characters could be a group devoted to raiding ruined cities for artifacts and looking for scattered survivors of the zombie apocalypse.

I didn't latch onto this immediately, but I concur. Food-fetching is somewhat plausible as a reason, but they must have a significant source of energy, to make it cost-effective to boost captured food into orbit. Otherwise, you can be sure every raid on Earth begins with securing a refueling.

But, yeah, what Eric said. Give folks a laundry list of potential "raid reasons". You needn't actually write up modules for each, and I doubt your system will need to address those motives with elements or mechanics. Just a nice, chunky list of "Things That The Administrators Need From Earth All The Time". From banal (food) to super scarce (fuel sources for that alledged uber-power-system that lets us deorbit for a grocery run!).

Further, fetching resources is by no means the only reason to go down. Saving survivors is a GOOD one: re-population needs, you see. We need a large gene pool, or the human race is done anyway. Art and information retrieval: do these space monkeys have any desire to save human knowledge? To capture zombies to attempt treatment/experiments (that one's a bit ugly and dark, but you got a planet full of zombies and tin cans in orbit: it WOULD happen; people MUST want to land permanently someday, right?). Establish and maintain bases/landing areas. Setup emergency shelters and evac radios that survivors might discover.

You know... this would be a good thread subject: [Raid Earth] Why raid Earth?

HTH;
David

[Gary "Grail" Condra]

Instead of focusing on food retrieval, what about focusing on bringing back metal (following up on the recycling board idea) or maybe water to keep hydroponic farms on the stations going? Or the characters could be a group devoted to raiding ruined cities for artifacts and looking for scattered survivors of the zombie apocalypse.

I didn't latch onto this immediately, but I concur. Food-fetching is somewhat plausible as a reason, but they must have a significant source of energy, to make it cost-effective to boost captured food into orbit. Otherwise, you can be sure every raid on Earth begins with securing a refueling.

But, yeah, what Eric said. Give folks a laundry list of potential "raid reasons". You needn't actually write up modules for each, and I doubt your system will need to address those motives with elements or mechanics. Just a nice, chunky list of "Things That The Administrators Need From Earth All The Time". From banal (food) to super scarce (fuel sources for that alledged uber-power-system that lets us deorbit for a grocery run!).

Further, fetching resources is by no means the only reason to go down. Saving survivors is a GOOD one: re-population needs, you see. We need a large gene pool, or the human race is done anyway. Art and information retrieval: do these space monkeys have any desire to save human knowledge? To capture zombies to attempt treatment/experiments (that one's a bit ugly and dark, but you got a planet full of zombies and tin cans in orbit: it WOULD happen; people MUST want to land permanently someday, right?). Establish and maintain bases/landing areas. Setup emergency shelters and evac radios that survivors might discover.

You know... this would be a good thread subject: [Raid Earth] Why raid Earth?

HTH;
David

Hi,

Metal = mine, mine + planet of zombies = overrun
Hence metal is of little imortance but when found (which it's likely to be) it is very useful, always it's set a little in the future and the main fuel is solar batteries. Also without people harvesting vegetables they flourish and livestock do not mind living on the stations but food vegetation will not grow there. Hence the raid for food, metal if they lose metal that can ill afford being lost then quite likely they will be sent to bring back metal to replace what they lost.

Anyway hopes this helps with your ideas, which in turn are helping me.

Cheers,

Grail

[Kyle R Cuthbert]

They must have a significant source of energy, to make it cost-effective to boost captured food into orbit. Otherwise, you can be sure every raid on Earth begins with securing a refueling.

This immediately brings the film "Mad Max" into mind, where fuel is a precious resource as the earth's own supply is very very short, but solar charged batteries seams to be a solid source of energy, as long as you can recharge them if they run down in power, or keep the missions as short as possible, which you would have to do in any case with all the zombies about.

Building from that though, as well as food and metal, there would probably be lost technology scaterred around the planet, which would also probably result in high payment depending on its use. For example, the stations might need high-tech systems to run, currently we use silicone chips in our computer systems, if you found something compatible with the stations systems they could be used to upgrade the stations.

I also have a question, is it possible to grow food in space if the stations had enough time to make a orbital greenhouse or something similar, or would there be no possible way to grow food in space? You could argue that crops grown in space lack nutrients that are natural in earths soil.

Anyways, see you at college dude,

Kyle

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

I didn't latch onto this immediately, but I concur. Food-fetching is somewhat plausible as a reason, but they must have a significant source of energy, to make it cost-effective to boost captured food into orbit. Otherwise, you can be sure every raid on Earth begins with securing a refueling.

...the main fuel is solar batteries. Also without people harvesting vegetables they flourish and livestock do not mind living on the stations but food vegetation will not grow there.

...is it possible to grow food in space if the stations had enough time to make a orbital greenhouse or something similar, or would there be no possible way to grow food in space? You could argue that crops grown in space lack nutrients that are natural in earths soil.

On Orbital Technology
Nope, sorry, that's not good enough. There is no near-future technology which would lead to a battery-powered (i.e. electrical) orbital craft.

MAYBE if there are magrail lifters still functional on Earth. MAYBE if you do some pseudo-scientific handwaving and say there's an "ElectroPropulsion Drive" that is somehow pushing against gravity by using the Earth's magnetic field (which is fine: the game is about freakin' zombies!). Hmmm... MAYBE you could propose a single material science advance just before The Collapse that made space-to-ground elevators/tethers possible....

But in all near-future plausibility, your orbitals will all use one of these technologies:
o  Saturn- and Shuttle-style chemical detonation rockets (solid and liquid fuel)
o  Orion-style nuclear detonations below a shock-absorption plate
o  Nuclear steam rockets (maybe... can the specific impulse of superheated steam exceed it own mass? Scientists in the house?)

Which is why I proposed that "get fuel" should be Step One of any deorbit mission that presumes the characters will return to orbit. Even if it's water for the nuke-steam engine. (Hmmm... that has a sort of steampunk flavor that might create an interresting frisson against the horror aspects....)

On Space-Grown Food
There are MANY sources for researching this general element. From my own very limited exposure to the issues, I would advise the following:

A space station colony could grow enough food to sustain itself with existing or near-future technologies. That said, there are many plant and food types which will not grow in microgravity. The bulk, therefore, of main foodstuffs would be based on algaes, simple roots and tubers, and other plants that do not significantly depend upon gravity to manage fluid flow and growth regulation. Though it is not necessarily true that we could not make a stable biosphere for plants in space, we would need to eventually inject basic nutrients into the biocycle SOMEWHERE: into the plants and animals we eat, into ourselves, into our waste (going to fertilize food), etc. Heck, that's an issue for LAND-based facilities, over a long enough timeline, with a presumably limited resource base (ex: a desert oasis).

Even still, some straggly string beans and other legumes would probably limp along well enough. If resources are tight, though, no one would bother to grow them (space inefficient, compare to algaes, molds, and roots).

Livestock is probably sheer fantasy. Life support management alone (never mind space adaptation issues) would make them the Pinnacle of Luxury items. Still... I like the Noah's Ark raid idea I put in the other thread, so I'd go for a bit of suspension of disbelief, here. And you could always make the space stations rather large, with centrifugal "gravity" to help the animals, crops, and humans.
All that said above, feel free to put the brakes on this "what is plausible" discussion at any time. You have carte blanche to dictate situational restrictions in your game design.

This might, in fact, be a good time to pause a moment and ask "What do I want characters to DO?" NOT the "Why?" but the basic, simple "This is how a game session goes" and disregard issues of plausibility and consistency with current science. Recall that this all began with us readers saying, "Not modern weapons just because of metal? But there's hardly any metal in the best near-future weapons!" Maybe the thing to really ask at that time was, "So do you just want a melee-heavy combat flavor, and thus impose this artifice?"

And had you answered "Yeah," that would be FINE.

Basically, this is a long-winded apology. I am VERY into sci fi themes, and seeing a "space-raiders versus the zombies" style of game got my juices flowing. I began to think mass versus utility ratios and sustainable satellite communities and near-future space agriculture and engineering... and I might have left "Swashbuckling Zombie Killers In Space" by the wayside.

Let us know. (You may have noted in the Why Raid Earth thread that I have asked for the cause of zombification. That is also a way to try to "get at" your intentions under the high-level overview you've given us so far. Just as this apology/query is trying to do....)

HTH, my 2¢ only, YMMV;
David

[Gary "Grail" Condra]

I didn't latch onto this immediately, but I concur. Food-fetching is somewhat plausible as a reason, but they must have a significant source of energy, to make it cost-effective to boost captured food into orbit. Otherwise, you can be sure every raid on Earth begins with securing a refueling.

...the main fuel is solar batteries. Also without people harvesting vegetables they flourish and livestock do not mind living on the stations but food vegetation will not grow there.

...is it possible to grow food in space if the stations had enough time to make a orbital greenhouse or something similar, or would there be no possible way to grow food in space? You could argue that crops grown in space lack nutrients that are natural in earths soil.

On Orbital Technology
Nope, sorry, that's not good enough. There is no near-future technology which would lead to a battery-powered (i.e. electrical) orbital craft.

MAYBE if there are magrail lifters still functional on Earth. MAYBE if you do some pseudo-scientific handwaving and say there's an "ElectroPropulsion Drive" that is somehow pushing against gravity by using the Earth's magnetic field (which is fine: the game is about freakin' zombies!). Hmmm... MAYBE you could propose a single material science advance just before The Collapse that made space-to-ground elevators/tethers possible....

But in all near-future plausibility, your orbitals will all use one of these technologies:
o  Saturn- and Shuttle-style chemical detonation rockets (solid and liquid fuel)
o  Orion-style nuclear detonations below a shock-absorption plate
o  Nuclear steam rockets (maybe... can the specific impulse of superheated steam exceed it own mass? Scientists in the house?)

Which is why I proposed that "get fuel" should be Step One of any deorbit mission that presumes the characters will return to orbit. Even if it's water for the nuke-steam engine. (Hmmm... that has a sort of steampunk flavor that might create an interresting frisson against the horror aspects....)

On Space-Grown Food
There are MANY sources for researching this general element. From my own very limited exposure to the issues, I would advise the following:

A space station colony could grow enough food to sustain itself with existing or near-future technologies. That said, there are many plant and food types which will not grow in microgravity. The bulk, therefore, of main foodstuffs would be based on algaes, simple roots and tubers, and other plants that do not significantly depend upon gravity to manage fluid flow and growth regulation. Though it is not necessarily true that we could not make a stable biosphere for plants in space, we would need to eventually inject basic nutrients into the biocycle SOMEWHERE: into the plants and animals we eat, into ourselves, into our waste (going to fertilize food), etc. Heck, that's an issue for LAND-based facilities, over a long enough timeline, with a presumably limited resource base (ex: a desert oasis).

Even still, some straggly string beans and other legumes would probably limp along well enough. If resources are tight, though, no one would bother to grow them (space inefficient, compare to algaes, molds, and roots).

Livestock is probably sheer fantasy. Life support management alone (never mind space adaptation issues) would make them the Pinnacle of Luxury items. Still... I like the Noah's Ark raid idea I put in the other thread, so I'd go for a bit of suspension of disbelief, here. And you could always make the space stations rather large, with centrifugal "gravity" to help the animals, crops, and humans.
All that said above, feel free to put the brakes on this "what is plausible" discussion at any time. You have carte blanche to dictate situational restrictions in your game design.

This might, in fact, be a good time to pause a moment and ask "What do I want characters to DO?" NOT the "Why?" but the basic, simple "This is how a game session goes" and disregard issues of plausibility and consistency with current science. Recall that this all began with us readers saying, "Not modern weapons just because of metal? But there's hardly any metal in the best near-future weapons!" Maybe the thing to really ask at that time was, "So do you just want a melee-heavy combat flavor, and thus impose this artifice?"

And had you answered "Yeah," that would be FINE.

Basically, this is a long-winded apology. I am VERY into sci fi themes, and seeing a "space-raiders versus the zombies" style of game got my juices flowing. I began to think mass versus utility ratios and sustainable satellite communities and near-future space agriculture and engineering... and I might have left "Swashbuckling Zombie Killers In Space" by the wayside.

Let us know. (You may have noted in the Why Raid Earth thread that I have asked for the cause of zombification. That is also a way to try to "get at" your intentions under the high-level overview you've given us so far. Just as this apology/query is trying to do....)

HTH, my 2¢ only, YMMV;
David

Okay David don't bite my head off yet, Raid Earth is still in devlopment as is the first expansion to follow it (geared up for more modern weapons and post-modern weapons). Also the idea of Noah's Ark had crossed my mind hence the livestock being on the station (it just had to be down I'm afraid). Yes there was a major boom in science before the 'incident', mainly the discovery that natural harmonics could be used to move objects (Soundwave based engines) and just before the fall a silent prototype dropship was created (The GM's ship). Also remember that metal is the rarest resource now so they mainly rely on Earth for most things now, although I think having a lost nuke-steam based hopper may be a good idea to be included in the scenario's I'll be offering (See idea's do make it to through to me).

Also Kyle with zombies being the main species on Earth now, it was best to abandon the planet with the best they could do as fast as they could. So including an orbital farm in the design was a no although if they find more vessels capable of bringing supplies up that could be made a reality but then why raid earth at all if they have everything they need up there?

Cheers,

Gary/Grail

PS. I can be reached via e-mail at most times as well so if you want a detailed talk about Raid Earth drop me a line and I'll sort something out. Also bear in mind I will be after playtesters soon and they will be having a major impact on the finished game (it is going to be a diceless system after all).