Anyone here making a living from RPGs?

[Ron Edwards]

What Ralph said.

[Pelgrane]

THATS the distinguishing feature of indie as espoused at The Forge.  Auteur or not is a red herring and completely tangental.

An excellent response which has teased out some fine distinctions. I can't respond to it without discussing the meaning of "auteur", so I'll be brief . Suffice to say, your definition of "indie publisher" and mine of "auteur" mostly intersect - that is a creative project unified by a single vision who makes or at least approves all creative decisions, and owns the IP.

I don't think that this model is incompatible with a creator / publisher model at all, and you distinguish between them, too. As I said in a previous post - we'd be happy to publish something creator owned, but many freelancers simply aren't interested. Some are, and we are working with them. The three central principles of such an arrangement are:

1. Creator owns the IP.
2. Creator gets final say over the appearance and content of the final result.
3. Creator is advanced a lower sum than they would for work-for-hire.

Is this indie publishing? Point 3 aside, according to your definition, yes. My sole aim in running Pelgrane Press is to make great games without losing money. On the ownership of IP, I am neutral except as it affects the end result - whatever suits the person producing the work. I am hoping to have two, maybe three such games out this year.

[Ron Edwards]

Well, this is getting a bit off-track, but since it highlights some of the confusions about "independent" that persist, I want to clarify a couple of things.

First of all, Simon, with no criticism implied, no, you are not conducting independent publishing by the definition used here. That #3 is crucial, because that definition is all about the money.

Don't get me wrong. What you describe is a much improved version of freelance or work-for-hire or all that kind of arrangement. What you describe would keep Bob Kane from getting screwed out of making money from Batman. That's fine, and if anyone wants to work with you in those terms, you won't see me picketing your offices with a "Down with the exploiters, Free Bob Kane" sign.

So do we have that out of the way? Good. With that in mind, the definition of independent that I've been exemplifying and promoting all these years relies on the creator having full authority over the money, at both ends. (1) Money put in, and (2) money coming back, and how it's spent.

That's what makes it independent publishing, or self-publishing, or however one wants to phrase it. The whole IP discussion is secondary. Or to put it most clearly, if the creator of the game also has full authority over the money at both ends, then the issue of IP becomes irrelevant, because it's not disputable.

[Side note: Especially if you do what I and a lot of authors do, which is to lease the art rather than buy it, with no restrictions on the artist's use at all. In other words, the artist becomes controller of his or her money, for his or her work.]

Now, this might confuse people, because Ralph said "it's all about the vision" and I agreed, and now I'm saying "it's all about the money." What, huh, what?

It shouldn't be confusing, though. Start with the point about the money, and then Ralph's point about the vision arrives instantly on its heels, as a necessary outcome.

Second, I'm afraid that all the good intentions you've posted about how much you as the publisher would respect the desires of the author are like plastic fruit. They're beautiful until someone puts the bite on them.

What if the book sells under-par for the first year, and the author wants you to print 1000 more? "Just promote it to the distributors a little more, come on! I know it can do it!" Who makes that decision? Are you the author's print-servant, when you foot the bill? And when you have four or five other books by other authors coming out, all of which you think will probably be stronger sellers, and one of which is proving a tad expensive at the moment?

Or let's say one of those books comes back in proofs from the printer, and for no reason that you can understand, the author says, "That looks fucking awful. Let's start over." Are you really going to eat that entire cost? If he really has "final say," then yeah, you would. Art costs, layout costs, time and negotiation costs, all gone - plus whatever promotion and promises you made about the book coming out at such-and-such a time, all lost.

I'm not asking you to address each and every one of these points in a what-if fashion. In fact, please do not do any such thing. That is not the point of this thread, and as I've said very clearly, if an author wants to work with you on your terms, then more power to him and he can rest assured that he will not be put on the street to sell pencils.

What I'd like you to consider is that no, a publisher cannot afford to let the author exert the kind of authority I'm talking about over the work. If he did, the he (the author) would be ... the publisher.

That's what I do.

Best, Ron

[Valamir]

Simon, I really like what you've described in principle.  But practically speaking I think it might have been much more viable 10 years ago (or even 5).

Unless I'm completely misreading you, you're basically putting yourself out as coordinator of printing, art direction, and marketing for a small press designer who has a game but doesn't want to, or can't do those things themself..

That's actually pretty cool, and falls right in line with my notion of "do what you do well, and hire someone else to do the rest".*

However, modern technology (the "flattening of the world" as its coming to be called) has made those tasks so easy that today I'm not sure anyone who's tech savvy enough to surf the internet couldn't do those things well for themselves.  There are literally dozens of sites where you can go to get print quotes from a competitive selection of printers.  I coordinated the entire second print run of Universalis by finding print shops through one of those sites, interacting with the top 5 via email and making my selection and getting down to specifics without ever even speaking to the rep on the phone.

Likewise there are tons of on line galleries that are easily searched to find artists and marketing has got HUGELY easier with the growing momentum of Key20 and IPR.  I've never spoken to a distributor rep in my life, yet over half of my last Uni print run went through distribution with Alliance making regular reorders every couple of months.

Branding is a useful thing to offer.  The proliferation of small press game company imprints means that most small companies names are hardly well known.  Indeed the designer's names are generally much more known than our imprints.  But in a way we've developed our own meta brands.  People talk about "the new Indie game" the way they'd talk about "the new d20 release".  Or "The latest game from The Forge" the way they'd talk about "The latest game from White Wolf".  Add to that the growing recognition of: Indie Press Revolution, Key20, and a web of interlocking Blogs where large numbers of gamers go to get the latest scoop on new games...and we've even got a pretty good start on brand recognition.

So, maybe someone who really thought owning their own intellectual property was important...but who REALLY didn't have the time to do basic online web searches...might find having someone coordinate the final stages of publishing for them a good thing.  But I suspect that that slice of the designer universe is actually pretty small.  Maybe if the 3 tier system were to collapse and large numbers of freelancers were to find themselves without work for hire, they may be attracted to the model you've described (as I understand it) because it is fairly similar to what they're used to.  But I'm not seeing a whole lot of value added for myself.

I'd much rather pick your brains on forums like this in a mutually beneficial collaboration between indie publishers who do not view themselves as competitors**, freely sharing what we know and tricks of the trade we've learned, than to enter into a business partnership just to have to pay money for the same thing.



Final thought.  Ron's absolutely right.  "All about the vision" and "All about the money" are pretty much synonymous (note "money" is not the same as "profit" or "living wage").
Its just the game industry application of the Golden Rule:   "Those who have the Gold, make the Rules".  The only way it can be all about my vision...is if it only involves my money.  No matter how good your intentions are, if publishing my game involves your money you'd have to be either stupid or running a charity not to put your foot down if you didn't like how I was spending it.  As long as its my money, mine is the only foot involved.


* actually it would be more in line with my model if instead of being the publisher granting back to the creator certain rights and privileges the arrangement was framed more like a consulting service where you were hired to perform a specific function and there was no need for guarantees of IP rights, because those were never ceded to begin with.


** None of the publishers on the Forge are competitors of each other.  That's hard to believe for some, but its true.  If Half Meme were Ramshead competition then everytime someone bought a copy of My Life with Master I'd be all like "damn...lost another one to Di-tech".  Instead I'm like "Whoo hoo, the market for people who are aware of and interested in small press games just got bigger"  See every customer of Half Meme or Adept or TAOS or Chimera is a potential future customer of Ramshead.  Its MUCH easier for me to sell to someone whose already played and loved Dust Devils than it is for me to sell to someone whose only played d20 (and vice versa).  So our collective marketing efforts are full of synergies.  Which is why many indie games include ads for other indie games from other publishers in the back.

Point being, instead of paying you so that we can benefit from your expertise and experience (which is what it sounds like you're offering in your brief summary above), I'd rather see you freely share your expertise and experience and freely benefit from ours, so everybody wins.  I've no doubt you've got insights into aspects of the industry that would be valuable for us to know.  And I fully expect that we have insights that you could benefit from to.  Sharing those with you on this forum 9or others) would be a fantastic opportunity for everyone.

[pells]

Well, sorry to jump in, but I'd like to provide my view on the subject... and I guess I'm not the only one in this position. Just to make things clear : I'm over thirty, working and married. I make good money (and my wife too), I won't hide it. The main two questions that occured to me were : what do I do with my spare time ? and what do I do with my money ?

So, I'm also working on a rpg project and I don't make a living out of it... not yet. Maybe I'll never do !!! I don't know. But, designing and writing what I do takes me a lot of time (my spare time) and to complete it, I need to invest some money (my spare money). Obviously, I could do other things : watch TV, build a character for world of warcraft, go ski... anything. As for the money, I will be investing the equivalent of a car (more or less). That said, I don't have a car, I don't need one, I don't want one...

But, bottom line for me is that I'm doing something for me, in which I learn a lot of things !! Writing 500 pages is quite a thing. Designing and owning a website is quite a thing. Managing over ten people over a project that is mine, is quite a thing. I learn a lot doing this in my spare time. And that's very important to me. As for the money, if it works, then I'll try to be at least even, but this is not a hole for me, this is an initial investiment (that said, I like the idea of investing in me).

Bottom line, what I'm doing is indie : this is mine. I decide whom I'm working with, I make the final decisions. Even if this doesn't work, this is going to be a great visiting card. I can do that. I have done that. And not only for me. For the illustrators, the translator, the webdesigner, the webmaster...

And that's why it is important to me, that's why I continue to invest (time and money) in it.

[Pelgrane]

First of all, Simon, with no criticism implied, no, you are not conducting independent publishing by the definition used here. That #3 is crucial, because that definition is all about the money.

Well, then I disagree with your definition of independent. The reason I excluded #3 is because independent producers don't get an advance on their project. You've taken away any opportunity to address your points, so the only thing I can say is that not one single example you've given is a barrier.

If a person has control over their IP, the ability to veto any aspect of the production process, total creative control and the ability to sell their product throught the channels they want, how they want, then they are independent in my opinion. I've no interest in producing something the creator isn't happy with. Would I give a creator a veto at any stage? Yes. We are just as much a subcontractor as anyone else, except we get paid in good value product to resell. We have channels to market that independent publishers do not generally have. I'm just very careful who I work with and allow a very long lead time.

When a discussion comes down to disagreements over definitions, it's time to stop. I've learnt a lot from it, though.

Ralph, I will freely share the knowledge I have about publishing and RPG marketing with anyone, so that is simply not the issue.  I am not here touting for business, I'm not trying to persuade you that one model is better than another. I pick and choose very carefully who I approach (always people whose games I have enjoyed playing), and I've been very wary of unsolicited approaches, although I always, always offer advice if it is requested.  So what value do we add? Yes, we can assist the creative process, but that's secondary. You could present me with a fully laid out, illustrated and ready to print book, I'd be delighted, but I'd still be able to help. The most important contribution occurs after the publication. We have to sell as many copies as we can through the agreed channels in order to recoup our investment. There is likely to be very little intersection between customers the creator finds and ones we find. Basically, creators will make more money than they otherwise would, and more importantly (to me at least) far more people would be playing their games. If you can already sell and market through the traditional channels and have the time and energy, then you probably won't have much use for us. If you have printing, distribution, mail order and advertising set up in Europe, then we probably can't do much for you. Still, the proof will be in the pudding.

[Valamir]

So what value do we add? Yes, we can assist the creative process, but that's secondary. You could present me with a fully laid out, illustrated and ready to print book, I'd be delighted, but I'd still be able to help. The most important contribution occurs after the publication. We have to sell as many copies as we can through the agreed channels in order to recoup our investment. There is likely to be very little intersection between customers the creator finds and ones we find. Basically, creators will make more money than they otherwise would, and more importantly (to me at least) far more people would be playing their games. If you can already sell and market through the traditional channels and have the time and energy, then you probably won't have much use for us. If you have printing, distribution, mail order and advertising set up in Europe, then we probably can't do much for you. Still, the proof will be in the pudding.

Sounds interesting.  Love to have you start a thread with some details and some numbers.  I have a pretty good idea how many copies many of the Forge Games have sold and over what time period because we share that information.  I have a pretty good idea how much money in pocket that translates to.  I'd love to have numbers from you to compare to.  Is what you're doing really putting significantly more money in pocket even after your cut?  Please start a thread on it and discuss not as a sales pitch, obviously, but as a comparison of methods.  We're not hide bound around here, maybe you're on to something.

But for purposes of this thread, as soon as there is someone else in the picture who has an interest in "recouping their investment" you've entered the slippery slope between truly independent and not.  The very first time you do something with my game that I* don't 100% like, or prevent my doing something that I do 100% like and you can do that because you have the lever of investment money...then we've hit "not" no matter how small the something is.  Is that possibility worth it given a sufficiently large amount of additional money you'd be putting in my pocket.  Possibly, that's why I'd love to see that other thread.


* I, me and my here are just convenient pronouns.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Simon,

I'm not dismissing you nor splitting hairs over definitions. This is a good discussion; keep reading. This post might surprise you.

You wrote,

If a person has control over their IP, the ability to veto any aspect of the production process, total creative control and the ability to sell their product throught the channels they want, how they want, then they are independent in my opinion.

Mine too. This is an agreement, not a disagreement.

I've no interest in producing something the creator isn't happy with. Would I give a creator a veto at any stage? Yes. We are just as much a subcontractor as anyone else, except we get paid in good value product to resell.

Whoa. That is a significant comment, and not one I've ever before seen from someone who wants to act as the publisher/partner guy. If that's a feature of your contract, then yes, it preserves independence (or, to avoid terminological torment, the quality that I've been advocating by whatever name).

Here's the analogy that springs to my mind, which might be helpful too because it doesn't impact the independence-issue.

OK, a distributor like Alliance buys my book, say, Sorcerer. Once that happens, it's out of my hands, I've sold it for approximately $8, and that's that. It's his book now, and whether it gets lifted by an employee, stored and forgotten in a warehouse for 20 years, or sold to a retailer, the $8 is still mine. The book's his.

Whereas a fulfiller like Key 20 or IPR doesn't buy it. He warehouses the books, handles the invoices, and ships the books, but overall he is, effectively, much the same as the kid down the block who runs a letter down to the post-box for me, for a small fee. The ownership of the book really doesn't leave my hands until the customer who ordered it actually gets it in the mail. Instead of owning the book as their investment, IPR and Key 20 are collecting commissions on their ability to facilitate my sales. At any time, I can say phooey to them and do it all myself again if I ever disliked decisions or policies on their part, and there's no loss of inventory or legal wrangling involved with that.

So if I'm reading you right, when you say "publisher," you are much more like the latter than the former. If that's the case, then wahoo! You would be the first guy ever actually to facilitate independent publishing in that fashion.

I'm not even sure that "publisher" is even the right term ... perhaps "publishing consulting" or "logistics managing" or some such thing is more accurate. If, in fact, you are acting as a subcontractor for services rendered, and specifically relinquishing final authority over the management of the money and other policies, then yes, everything you're saying about preserving the independence is accurate.

Now, I do expect you to accept that I'm suspicious about it. Historically, no such tacit arrangement has ever worked and all cases I know of ended in disaster. The fact you're making that arrangement explicit is heartening and fascinating.

Best, Ron

[Pelgrane]

So if I'm reading you right, when you say "publisher," you are much more like the latter than the former. If that's the case, then wahoo! You would be the first guy ever actually to facilitate independent publishing in that fashion.

I'm not even sure that "publisher" is even the right term ... perhaps "publishing consulting" or "logistics managing" or some such thing is more accurate. If, in fact, you are acting as a subcontractor for services rendered, and specifically relinquishing final authority over the management of the money and other policies, then yes, everything you're saying about preserving the independence is accurate.

Now, I do expect you to accept that I'm suspicious about it. Historically, no such tacit arrangement has ever worked and all cases I know of ended in disaster. The fact you're making that arrangement explicit is heartening and fascinating.

Well, thank you. Creative people can be suspicious and protective over their IP (justifiably). I will, and have, said yes to every IP-protective suggestion that has been made to me, if I think the product warrants it. I get a window of time and channels to market in that time. I'm not saying that this is the only arrangement that can or will be made.

Here is a simple example of how it might work:
You, want to produce a game. I like the sound of it. I agree to find layout people, artists, playtesters, or do none of these things. I agree to print it or not. I pay up front for many copies when I see the game (or supply final printed copies). I agree to confine my sales to a particular market for a particular period. I take the risk on any creative work I do or comission. At the end, if I've arranged things (layout, whatever) I might be compensated for it and you use it, or, you might take the finished text, and do what you want with it, but not use the layout.

This is an unusual arrangement, as most of the people I deal with want complete creative control and IP ownership over only their words or art, don't want to have to sell anything themselves, and just want to be paid for the number of copies sold. That doesn't make them an independent publisher, but it's a pretty good arrangement. Most of them don't want to have final say over artwork, or anything else,  but I'd probably give it to them if they asked. For such people,  I consider Pelgrane as a midwife to the creative process, and I can then hand the baby back. Where the other person has the final say, and you don't have the whip hand (as you say, who has the gold) I find my suggestions carry weight in a way that doesn't include unpleasant baggage.

Then there are authors I've been almost begging to keep hold of IP who simply want word rate. They just want to write. They are not even slightly interested in anything else to do with publishing at all.

As for risk; the sums involved are peanuts compared with the risks you take developing software, and I know how to swallow losses and say goodbye to bad money without animosity.  I emphasise again, that I would only make such agreements with people whose work I admire, and preferably people I have heard good things about. Finally, each contract, each agreement must depend on the goodwill and wishes of both parties, and will differ accordingly. If I sense any reluctance, I back off immediately.

In any case, I hope I have something tangible which evolves as a result of the arrangements in the next few months.

[Pelgrane]

Sounds interesting.  Love to have you start a thread with some details and some numbers.  I have a pretty good idea how many copies many of the Forge Games have sold and over what time period because we share that information.  I have a pretty good idea how much money in pocket that translates to.  I'd love to have numbers from you to compare to.  Is what you're doing really putting significantly more money in pocket even after your cut?  Please start a thread on it and discuss not as a sales pitch, obviously, but as a comparison of methods.  We're not hide bound around here, maybe you're on to something.

But for purposes of this thread, as soon as there is someone else in the picture who has an interest in "recouping their investment" you've entered the slippery slope between truly independent and not.  The very first time you do something with my game that I* don't 100% like, or prevent my doing something that I do 100% like and you can do that because you have the lever of investment money...then we've hit "not" no matter how small the something is.  Is that possibility worth it given a sufficiently large amount of additional money you'd be putting in my pocket.  Possibly, that's why I'd love to see that other thread.

It's a great idea, but that thread will have to wait a few months, I'm afraid. I will let you know when I have something more tangible to share. I was really an idiot for mentioning it even in passing, probably the first such error I've ever made online. To be clear - I might have the lever of investment, but you will have the lever of "if you don't like it, it doesn't get published, full stop" Finally, I would never, ever promise to make anyone more money than they otherwise would have made. If you have good channels to market already, I probably can't help.

[Pelgrane]

The article which lead to this thread is now available for your perusal.

Go to http://www.dyingearth.com/pagexxintro.htm and click "Is the RPG Industry Screwed?"

More on the first example of a new publishing model soon.

Simon Rogers
Pelgrane Press Ltd

[Valamir]

A very interesting article Simon.

I was most struck by how gloomy the tone was.  Even folks who were saying things that were technically correct were doing so from the perspective of "batten down the hatches, rough seas ahead" instead of "wow, a total paradigm shift in the industry...what a fantastic opportunity...what a fantastic time to be an RPG publisher". 

It really is a different perspective to see how folks with a vested interest in the old paradigm view the new paradigm vs. how most of us here view it...as the single greatest thing to happen to the roleplaying hobby since Dave Arneson.

All the stuff those guys were pointing out as reasons why the old industry is dying to me are reasons why the new industry is thriving.  The King is Dead...Long Live the King.


Kudos for Ben for being the only person quoted to identify the REAL underlying issue.

Kudos to anyone not already immersed in Forge culture who are sharp enough to realize that of all of the things that were said, Ben's words should be the key takeaway from the article...take them to heart and learn from them

Kudos to Simon for making Ben's piece the longest single quote in the article.

And Kudos also to Mongoose for stepping up and showing that there is money to be made yet in the old paradigm, doing it successfully, and doing it without moping and whining about it.  They may not be using the model we are, but they're clearly adept at squeezing the last ounce of advantage out of what they're doing and taking responsibility for their own success rather than looking for excuses. 

[LordSmerf]

Simon's stated purpose was to talk to people who "made a living" from writing/publishing/selling RPGs.  Ben qualifies because he lives in China and because Polaris rocks on toast.

Anyway, I bring it up because I realized, possibly for the first time, why people are so invested in the old paradigm: they like their jobs.  Designing and selling games in the way that is generally advocated around the Forge means that you won't generally lose money, but at the same time you aren't going to be able to get along without a job to pay the rent.  People who are in the "industry" love what they do, and they want to do it full-time.

When you compare the two dominant paradigms (the small/hobby press and the "industry") with your primary criteria being "Which of these can I make a full-time career?" it is pretty obvious who wins.

Of course just because you want to do something as a career doesn't mean that it's feasible to do so, but it seems that, at least for the moment (though it is interesting that everyone is commenting on the decline of the "industry") you can make a career out of writing/designing/publishing roleplaying games.  I think the problem people have is that it's becoming less and less possible to do this, and no one really wants to give up a job they love...

I thought it was interesting anyway...

Thomas

[Josh Roby]

Thomas -- yes, yes, and a thousand times yes.  Then complicate that with spouses and children.  It's a little more than the game designer's aesthetic sensibilities on the line.

[guildofblades]

Hi Thomas,

It is completely possible to make a living on game publishing still. Even only publishing RPGs if one were determined enough to do it only with RPGs.

However, looking to the future, I think creators will have to get ever more creative in the manner in which they attempt to present their creatives to the market and make money on it. Role playing might thrive in the future, but drawing employment solely from "printed" RPG books is going to get more difficult. And yes, I more or less lump PDF books in the same category. To thrive financially I think people will need to get creative on the business side and find ways to monetize RPG creative content through in different ways.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com