Monster Rules Game Posted--Please, Take a Look

[mratomek]

Hello all,

Its been a loooooooooooooooooong time coming, but I have finally posted a beta version of Monster Rules for everyone to download.

Monster Rules attempts to compress an RPG experience into a tabletop miniatures game that can be played head to head. Monster is a multi-genre game that uses a point-based system for both character construction and scenario construction to keep an even playing field.

Furthermore, you can use any miniature, toy, action figure or scratch-built creation to represent you characters in play.

We have used it for dungeon delves, super heroes and "Twilight Zone" type games. It has been a lot of fun, but it is time for it to face the furnaces of public scrutiny.

If you have a moment, please download the file:

http://www.monsterrules.com/resources/Monsterv052106.zip

It's a monster of a file (13 MB)--what else would you expect.

I will be looking for posts at this forum.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Matthew Yarro

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

Looks quite nice, in terms of depth of options and production value. I have a bit of feedback:

Converting PL to dice is easy. Use whichever dice most-closely matches the power’s or attribute’s PL score (odd-numbered scores are rounded up). For example, if a character has a PL 4, he uses a D4; PL5, D6; or PL 10, D10.

For a PL5, why use a D6 when a D10 ÷ 2 (rounded) does a range of 1-5?
Or are you trying to avoid any math other than addition (which seems to be the case from your Power Level Benchmark Table)?

Also, I think you can do a PL7 with a d6 + d1 (coin that yields 0 or 1). That might not be a "pure" curve... but neither are most of your summed dice for PLs higher on the table.

Once you start to use dice multiples (e.g. 2d10, 3d10) you are creating a bell curve that will cause roll values to tend to the median result. This basically means that higher PL effects tend to be more average within their ranges than low PL effects (which will vary more wildly within their ranges). If you are OK with that, cool... and you would be cool with d6 + d1, then, too! ;-)

You purchase PL scores for each attribute at a cost of 2 points per Power Level. For example, a PL of 10 costs 20 points.

Unfortunately, I haven't grokked the whole game yet, but are you sure you want flat-cost primary attributes? This, in effect, means that you have taken pains to ensure that every attribute is equally applicable in the course of most games. That's pretty ambitious--and also opens the door for "points crunchers" who discover that Attribute X doesn't get tested nearly as much as, say, Strength; and so the crunchers buy just enough of Att X to "get by."

I think that this "issue" is doubly-true for Powers. Surely, a PL10 Brawl (turn-by-turn damage/defense power) is not functionally equivalent to, say, a PL10 Devolve (persistent denial of opponent power)?

Ray (Ry)
Ray is used for effect powers that can be used at greater distances, such as Fear, Paralysis, Confusion or Laughter
...
Target (Trg)
Target indicates that a power can be used at a greater distance. Target is used for damage-causing powers, such as Fire, Radiation or Sonic.

I think I see the distinction. I am not sure why there is a distinction. SO I don't see the distinction. But it's right there, in the text. What's the difference? Is it cost (i.e. is it cheaper/costlier to use damage effects at range)? Why?

And if there is not, in fact, a mechanical distinction, then throw out "Target" as the weird-sounding one. "Ray" is, at least, evocative; "Target" means... well, a ton of things, in a ton of contexts, and thus could lead to confusions.

While flying, a character ... can increase or decrease his altitude or depth by one level per Action used. If he only changes his altitude or depth, he can change his level by up to 2 levels per Action used.

If a character uses a movement power, he can change his altitude or depth by 1 level; if a character only moves vertically, he can change his altitude or depth by 3 levels.

Obvious inconsistency in Power v. general movement rules. But more importantly...

I can see how this is appealing from a simplicity standpoint. I do not see how it is appropriate when you have PLs for movement powers and attributes like Agility. So no matter how quick I am in the raw, and no matter how many PLs of Flight I buy up, I only limp up and down at 1 (or 2 or 3?) 6' increments per round? What if I just choose to fall out of the sky (I should get up to about 120 mph which is about 175 feet per second!)?

Might just want to fudge this to say: "A MC with a movement power in three dimensions must move in a 'stairstep' pattern to gain or lose altitude: 1" up or down is the same as 1" horizontally, and 1" up while also moving 1" over is 2" of total movement (even though a 45º angle of ascent with 1" up and 1" over is actually only ~1.4" of total movement in reality)." Or something like that.

no specific quote

I am not sure what you get from the gaggle of abbreviations. It might be working for your crew (particularly on character sheets) but it makes it really hard to follow the rules as written. I'd eliminate the use of all abbreviations except on first usage in the section which describes their full term and on example character sheets. You can spare the digital ink to spell out attributes and ranges in Power Descriptions. ;-)

You might want someone to line-by-line edit this book. I have found some spelling issues.

FYI, this post of mine is just a fast-and-loose "sample review" finished in about an hour. I could perform a full proofread, design review, and copyedit, if you like (see this link for details).

[mratomek]

David,

Thank you taking the time to look over the game and post some feedback. I really appreciate it.

To answer some of your questions...

Converting PL to dice is easy. Use whichever dice most-closely matches the power's or attribute's PL score (odd-numbered scores are rounded up). For example, if a character has a PL 4, he uses a D4; PL5, D6; or PL 10, D10.

For a PL5, why use a D6 when a D10 ÷ 2 (rounded) does a range of 1-5?
Or are you trying to avoid any math other than addition (which seems to be the case from your Power Level Benchmark Table)?

I am trying to avoid the math as much as possible. I wanted to keep the game moving fast, and simply converting a PL and rolling dice seemed a mucher faster route than various dice configuration (which I initially tested and in was just too combersome).

Once you start to use dice multiples (e.g. 2d10, 3d10) you are creating a bell curve that will cause roll values to tend to the median result. This basically means that higher PL effects tend to be more average within their ranges than low PL effects (which will vary more wildly within their ranges). If you are OK with that, cool... and you would be cool with d6 + d1, then, too! ;-)

Yes. The fact that some ultra powerful character rolling 2D10+D4 can still score a 3 makes the game fun. Chances are, he is going to score higher--on average--but there is still a chance that he can cheese it.

You purchase PL scores for each attribute at a cost of 2 points per Power Level. For example, a PL of 10 costs 20 points.

Unfortunately, I haven't grokked the whole game yet, but are you sure you want flat-cost primary attributes? This, in effect, means that you have taken pains to ensure that every attribute is equally applicable in the course of most games. That's pretty ambitious--and also opens the door for "points crunchers" who discover that Attribute X doesn't get tested nearly as much as, say, Strength; and so the crunchers buy just enough of Att X to "get by."

Yes it is a delicate balance and it is up to a player/s to make sure those challenges exist--if for no other reason than to force an opponent to spend points on a skill that would allow him to succeed at a task.

A game might require a character to hack into a computer with a TN (Target Number) of 16. To be successful, a character might have a Computer skill of 10 (D10) and an Intelligence of 10 (D10).

So if the object of the game is for your opponent to hack into your computer system and he only creates one character with the ability to do so, who do you think you would target first for elimination?

So there is a lot of give and take, strategy and bluffing invovled. But that is part of the fun.

I think that this "issue" is doubly-true for Powers. Surely, a PL10 Brawl (turn-by-turn damage/defense power) is not functionally equivalent to, say, a PL10 Devolve (persistent denial of opponent power)?

Yes and no. If you want to do nothing but damage, get plain Brawl. But there are more types of damage than just harming an opponent. You could gain an Advantage, Knock Down, Knock Back, Glitch, Lock, Slam, Malfunction, Knock Out, Fatality, etc.

The various other powers that are available might not have the same ability as Brawl per se, but when used in conjunction with other powers can deliver devistating effects.

For example, if you know your opponent has a Invulnerability Mutation power and you first used Devolve to eliminate his ability to defend with the power and then attack with Brawl, you will cause more wounds and have access to more debilitating forms of damage than if you simply attacked with Brawl.

It's a strategy thing. Jake, my frequent opponent, always opts for the direct approach: Damage. If the games go too long, he tends to gain the advantage. But more often, using power combinations to gain an upper hand has led to his immediate undoing.

Ray (Ry)
Ray is used for effect powers that can be used at greater distances, such as Fear, Paralysis, Confusion or Laughter
...
Target (Trg)
Target indicates that a power can be used at a greater distance. Target is used for damage-causing powers, such as Fire, Radiation or Sonic.

I think I see the distinction. I am not sure why there is a distinction. SO I don't see the distinction. But it's right there, in the text. What's the difference? Is it cost (i.e. is it cheaper/costlier to use damage effects at range)? Why?

The idea was to make it easier for someone to quickly get that one ranged power causes damage (Target) and the other ranged power does not (Ray). Other than that, I think they are fairly similar. I will have to revisit that.

And if there is not, in fact, a mechanical distinction, then throw out "Target" as the weird-sounding one. "Ray" is, at least, evocative; "Target" means... well, a ton of things, in a ton of contexts, and thus could lead to confusions.

I will revisit that.

While flying, a character ... can increase or decrease his altitude or depth by one level per Action used. If he only changes his altitude or depth, he can change his level by up to 2 levels per Action used.

If a character uses a movement power, he can change his altitude or depth by 1 level; if a character only moves vertically, he can change his altitude or depth by 3 levels.

This was a bit of trick. Most games don't even handle differences in altitudes and heights, but your comment is a good one. There is no reason why a character shouldn't have more control over his altitude. I just can't imagine too much aparatus on the game board to manage altitudes and guestimating measurements. But I think it could be a simple matter of allowing characters to change their altitudes based on their PL.

I am not sure what you get from the gaggle of abbreviations. It might be working for your crew (particularly on character sheets) but it makes it really hard to follow the rules as written. I'd eliminate the use of all abbreviations except on first usage in the section which describes their full term and on example character sheets. You can spare the digital ink to spell out attributes and ranges in Power Descriptions. ;-)

I was trying to get people to start seeing the abbreviations and understand what they mean. But your point is well taken.

FYI, this post of mine is just a fast-and-loose "sample review" finished in about an hour. I could perform a full proofread, design review, and copyedit, if you like (see this link for details).

Yes and yes. I contacted once before, but I will again.

Thanks. again.

Matt

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

I think you have the start of an excellent game here.  The underlining premise is beautiful.  You do a good job of providing flexibility and customization in your system.  And I like the PL-to-dice mechanic.  I have read a little over a hundred pages through and have a few questions.

Most Special Abilities have a Cost:  X.  This is easy to calculate. But some Special Abilities (like Mass) have PL/X.  What exactly does this mean?  Does the Special Ability you are using to enhance the power have its own PL separate from the Powers PL?  If so, do add both PLs together to determine max PL or do you simply take the higher of the two?  Do you need to pay X * (Powers PL) and gain benefit equal to the powers PL?

Do the PL maximums apply for both Powers and Base Attributes?
Can you stack abilities like Unearthly and Ultimate?
(The existence of the latter implies that the answer is yes to the former, but I wanted to make sure.)  If the answer is No to both questions, then is there any way to get a stat higher then 22?  If not, why does the stat list go so high?

As you have it written now minions roll a fatality when ever they are hit.  They roll Strength + Resolution against their life + damage received.  If this is how it works, then a minion with 1 strength and 1 resolution has a greater chance of surviving 1 damage then a minion with 8 strength and 8 resolution.  This seems a bit counter intuitive.  There is no reason you should ever build a minion with a even stat for either.  A minion with 1 life has a 75% chance for surviving a single wound and one with 7 life has only a 44% chance.  (A 3 is  62% and 5 is  58%).  The probability of surviving more then 1 damage increases as the stats go up, but it is always less then 50% and the difference strikes me as minimal.  Are you sure that you want your system to work this way?  Am I totally misinterpreting it?

Once I have finished reading the rules I will give you some real feedback.

Best,
       Bill

[mratomek]

Most Special Abilities have a Cost:  X.  This is easy to calculate. But some Special Abilities (like Mass) have PL/X.  What exactly does this mean?  Does the Special Ability you are using to enhance the power have its own PL separate from the Powers PL?  If so, do add both PLs together to determine max PL or do you simply take the higher of the two?  Do you need to pay X * (Powers PL) and gain benefit equal to the powers PL?

Some special abilities do have their own PL, like Mass. Mass 1 would cost 5 points and have an area of effect equal to 1", where Mass 5 would cost 25 points and have an area of effect equal to 5".

But I need to make that clearer. Maybe Mass x5 instead of Mass PL 5.

Do the PL maximums apply for both Powers and Base Attributes?

Yes.

Can you stack abilities like Unearthly and Ultimate?

No. In fact, you can only buy one (Mighty, Ultimate or Unearthly). I am looking at allowing a character to purchase multiple versions, such as Mighty (Strength) and Ultimate (Brawl), but you wouldn't be able to purchase Mighty (Strength) and Ultimate (Strength).

(The existence of the latter implies that the answer is yes to the former, but I wanted to make sure.)  If the answer is No to both questions, then is there any way to get a stat higher then 22?  If not, why does the stat list go so high?

In head-to-head play, No. If you were play cooperatively with some friends or in a GM-Led game and agreed to lift the PL limits, then the skies the limit.

However, you can also use the attribute and power modifier, such as Strong, Agile, Nexus, etc., to further modify a power. For example, A Champion character can max out a Fire power at 22 with a PL 16 and Unearthly (Fire). Normally he would roll a D10 + D12 for this power.

But if he added a +2 Quick or Agile (if it used Agility as its attribute stack), +2 Enchanted or Arcane (if it used Supernatural as its source) and a +2 Bullseye or Marksman (if it used a Target range), then the dice roll would be D10 + D12 + 6, which is massively more powerful--and expensive.

As you have it written now minions roll a fatality when ever they are hit.  They roll Strength + Resolution against their life + damage received.  If this is how it works, then a minion with 1 strength and 1 resolution has a greater chance of surviving 1 damage then a minion with 8 strength and 8 resolution.  This seems a bit counter intuitive.

I didn't want players to have to track damage for Minions, that is why they roll damage each time. The chance of a Minon dying is always 50% + based on the total damage done--but remember, if a Minion is hit for 3 wounds, he can be automatically elimnated (See Eliminated in the Damage and Wounds section) without a Fatality Roll.

So if a Minion with St 1 and Rs 1 Might seem to have a better chance of making a Fatality Roll, the fact is most Hero and Champion characters would score 3+ wounds every time they hit him, so the Fatality Roll would never be an option.

There is no reason you should ever build a minion with a even stat for either.  A minion with 1 life has a 75% chance for surviving a single wound and one with 7 life has only a 44% chance.  (A 3 is  62% and 5 is  58%).  The probability of surviving more then 1 damage increases as the stats go up, but it is always less then 50% and the difference strikes me as minimal.  Are you sure that you want your system to work this way?  Am I totally misinterpreting it?

Odd scores are a point save--cheating fate. However, there are deterents to odd scores. There are many wounds and situations when a PL is rounded down. For example, if you had a Fire Pl 11 power with an Equipment special ability, and I hit and damaged it, reducing it by Half, it would become a PL 5 power, not PL 6. It is a subtle difference.

Furthermore, a Minion with St 1 and Rs 1 and a Life 1 would at best have a 50% of living--and that is if only 1 point of damage were done. If 2 points were done, he would only have a 25% of living--and if 3 points are done he's dead.

A Minion with St 7, Rs 7 and Life 7 in the same situation would also have a 50% chance of living if hit for 1 point of damage; however, if he is hit for 2 points, his percentage of surving only drops to  43% not 25%. A Minion has to beat the score to succeed, not just tie it.

Thanks for the questions, Bill. Please, keep'em coming.

If anyone else has any questions, please post them.

Matt

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

Some special abilities do have their own PL, like Mass.

Does this count against the max PL for the ability?  Or is it simply limited by the upper limit of the character type?

But I need to make that clearer.

I agree.  Also, clarify your Might/Unearthly/Ultimate rules.

A Minion with St 7, Rs 7 and Life 7 in the same situation would also have a 50% chance of living if hit for 1 point of damage; however, if he is hit for 2 points, his percentage of surviving only drops to  43% not 25%. A Minion has to beat the score to succeed, not just tie it.

I am afraid that I disagree with your math.

Combinations of 2dX:

2d2:  1/1, 1/2, 2/1, 2/2
Probability of exceeding 2 (1 health + 1 damage) using 2d2 = 3/4, 75%

2d4:  1/1, 1/2, 2/1, 1/3, 2/2, 3/1, 1/4, 2/3, 3/2, 4/1, 2/4, 3/3, 4/2, 3/4, 4/3, 4/4
Probability of exceeding 4 (3 health + 1 damage) using 2d4 = 10/16, 62.5%

2d6:  1/1, 1/2, 2/1, 1/3, 2/2, 3/1, 1/4, 2/3, 3/2, 4/1, 1/5 2/4, 3/3, 4/2, 5/1, 1/6, 2,5 3/4, 4/3, 5/2, 6/1, 2/6, 3/5, 4/4, 5/3, 6/2, 3/6, 4/5, 5/4, 6/3, 4/6, 5/5, 6/4, 5/6, 6/5, 6/6
Probability of exceeding 6 (5 health + 1 damage) using 2d6 = 21/ 36 , 58.3%

I'm to lazy to write out 2d8 in its entirety, but your odds of rolling a 9 or higher are closer to 50% probability.  The more sides a dice has the lower your odds of rolling the mean (when rolling more then 1).

Personally, I don't see any reason minions should get a fatality roll.  I like the idea that they die easy and you need to keep track of their health.  How about just letting them die when ever a shot gets through their defense?

If you don't like that idea, you can fix the above problem by forcing their life to be an even number.  If you force their life to be even, a character with prime stats of 1/1 will only have a 25% chance of survival and a 8/8 will have 44%.  Not a big difference, but it makes more sense.

There are several other issues which I believe may be problematic and elements that look like they might turn out very interesting, but I need to finish the rules to make sure.

Best,
        Bill

[mratomek]

Personally, I don't see any reason minions should get a fatality roll.  I like the idea that they die easy and you need to keep track of their health.  How about just letting them die when ever a shot gets through their defense?

You're right on the math. You'll have to play a game or two and see. If Minions died as soon as they were successfully hit, no one would use them. I had a superman like character throw a bus at a group of Minions (5 of em) and crush them in one action. It was easy to hit them because of the PL limits placed on Minions vs. Heroes or Champions.

The "Elimination" wound we have upgraded to a 3-wound hit. But possibly, it is downgraded back to a 2-wound hit and that is the only way you can destroy a Minion. So there is no fatality rolls and no tracking damage. Keeps the game moving along. I will have to give it a try.

There are several other issues which I believe may be problematic and elements that look like they might turn out very interesting, but I need to finish the rules to make sure.

Take your time, I appreciate your input.

Thanks again,

Matt