Constructive criticism on setting material

[Carl Bussler]

For my first post to these forums, I need to say that I wish I'd found this place months ago when I began working on my ideas. I originally began writing a novel, then decided that I needed to flesh out more information on the world. Then, that became the basis for a game setting.

Now that I've read through most of the articles and started reading the forums, I'm inspired to begin work on a game that will focus on the premise of that setting. This site has already helped me focus my ideas, steered my thinking in new directions, and forced me to break out of the box.

The work I've already done on the setting was without the guiding influence of this site and its members, but nobody outside my gaming group has seen it. I would appreciate some constructive feedback from neutral third parties.

Here's the overview for the setting (and subsequent game):

After the creation of the world by the elemental gods, they created mankind, and mortals were to be the caretakers of the world after the gods returned to their home in Bahruva. But the godchildren became jealous of each other's accomplishments and so a contest was issued. Each of the four major elemental gods (fire, earth, air and water) would take a portion of the world's people and propel them towards perfection, thus creating four major societies.

The godchildren's parents eventually had enough of this childish game and instructed the godchildren to return home through the Gates of Bahruva, which is a one way trip. But Aziram, God of Fire, was not content, and shared a seed of his divinity with a mortal woman, so her children would forever pass on the god's power through the ages. It was Aziram's plan that these gifted mortals would find a way to bring Aziram back to Sagatia to rule unopposed.

The other gods discovered his plan and did likewise, creating the immortal lineages. These immortals would eventually lead the societies to war and would result in a Cataclysm.

The game would begin during the years after the Cataclysm, when the world is facing eternal winter and a growing mass of ice from the north that threatens to swallow the continents.

I thought it would be interesting if the characters would be immortals struggling with persecution, age-old prejudices, and of course learning how to handle their own semi-divine powers. Would the characters use their powers to heal the world, or do as their forefathers did and bring the world closer to destruction?

Here are the links to the PDFs. I've broken the master document into three parts to reduce file size (cover, core1, and core2) and removed the credits page, introduction and back cover.

http://www.timelessadventures.com/files/Sagatia-Gazetteer-core1.pdf    - 6.4MB
http://www.timelessadventures.com/files/Sagatia-Gazetteer-core2.pdf - 4.7MB
http://www.timelessadventures.com/files/Sagatia-Gazetteer-cover.pdf - 1.7MB

Thanks for your time,
Carl

[Adam Dray]

What game system will you use to run this?

In what way do you expect the players to use this material?

[Adam Dray]

Oh yeah, welcome to the Forge. =)

[Carl Bussler]

I guess I should be more specific with my request for feedback.

My first thought was to create something useable by any system. Its all Setting and Color, so I thought that any system could pick it up and use it. But then I thought that the premise and theme of the game might be lost using certain systems, so that's why I thought I'd begin developing a system that would highlight Sagatia's premise and theme.

What I'd like to know are the following things:

1. Have I created something people other than myself find interesting for a) their own system or b) a system designed with this world in mind. If not, then I'll be content to develop it for my group's enjoyment.

2. Is the material presented in the gazetteer vague, confusing, not organized properly, or complete crap (although that's not entirely helpful in improving the material). I have my own opinions on what I'll do to improve the material in round two, but before I give my thoughts, I'd like to hear others comments so I'm not influencing theirs.

3. Have I left holes in the material? There are a few small items I'd like to add to the existing sections, but if it feels like something is missing, then I need to address that.

4. Have I gone overboard with existing sections? If a section feels bloated or unnecessary, then I should address that.

Sorry for not listing these in my first post.

Thanks again, and I'm glad to be aboard.

[Carl Bussler]

To address Adam's questions, I ran it using d20 system, then ran it with Iron Heroes rules, then paused to continue work.

The gazetter was intended for use by players and/or GMs. Players could use it to flesh-out backgrounds and such, but I think GMs would be a more likely audience for use in creating sessions, scenarios or adventures.

[pells]

Hi Carl and welcome to the forge !!! I haven't read all the stuff you put here, but I took a good look. Since I'm designing a pure content product (no mechanic, only setting/plot), I'll try to comment and help you.

But first, some questions :
What are your publishing goals ?
What you have shown us, is it an excerpt or all the work you have done so far ?

1. Have I created something people other than myself find interesting for a) their own system or b) a system designed with this world in mind. If not, then I'll be content to develop it for my group's enjoyment.

Setting, at least ones like yours, are not, by definition linked to system (althougth this is wrong for things like My life with master, dogs and sorcerer, since their setting and mechanic are closely linked). As you have tried it yourself, a setting can be used with more than one mechanic. So, your question seems ackward to me. But, that leads me to your system. Even if you're designing your own system, it doesn't mean that what you have done can only be used with this system. I would suggest leaving the door open to others. You can sell a version with your system and another one using d20. That's possible.
As for the setting in itself. I'd like to say that the art is very, very good. And the map looks good too. As for its usefulness, I'll come to that...

2. Is the material presented in the gazetteer vague, confusing, not organized properly, or complete crap (although that's not entirely helpful in improving the material). I have my own opinions on what I'll do to improve the material in round two, but before I give my thoughts, I'd like to hear others comments so I'm not influencing theirs.

Your material is presented in a very classic way. That seems like a problem to me. But, hey, maybe not for you !?! Here's why :
- I think that this form of presentation is, by itself, not very useful for the rpg. It is old, it is common, we have seen that before.
- If you choose that presentation, then you'll come in competition with hundred of others. Your only difference will be the setting in itself.

The gazetter was intended for use by players and/or GMs. Players could use it to flesh-out backgrounds and such, but I think GMs would be a more likely audience for use in creating sessions, scenarios or adventures.

Here's the important part !!! You want to provide something that can be used. But how exactly ? That's why I would encourage you to think of a way to present your material that will be useful. That means not in a gazetter way. If you can do that, then your product will become something unique, something different, and not only by the setting in itself. You have to think of what you, as a DM, need from this kind of material. The objective should be that people look at it and say "Ha, that's a nice setting, but also a useful one." You want your audience to create scenarios from your work. But how do they acheive that ? How does your material help them doing so ? Personnaly, I believe in material that people can build upon.
The way settings are presented didn't really evolved over the years and I strongly believe there is plenty of room to designing new way to do this.

I really don't want to spam your thread, but to give you an idea of what I'm talking, you might want to take a look at this : AvalancheTeaser_S1F4.
Note that this is not the final version, but it should give you an overview of a material designed in a different, useful way. Or at least I think.
If you wish to think over of a specific design for your setting, I'd be more than happy to help...

[Carl Bussler]

Sebastian,

Thanks for the insight. I agree with your observation on the material's presentation. While it may be organized, I can step back and look at it through this analogy:

I have given a GM some nails, some wood, and a hammer, and said that with these he can build a house. But, I have not supplied the GM with a blueprint, nor any instruction on the use of the materials or tools.

I think a useful product is one that solves a problem or makes our lives easier, and the same can be said about RPG products. I think what I'm developing has potential, but it doesn't solve

I read through your teaser and think you have a interesting twist to the way you have structured things.

Again, I am inspired by the forward thinking in these forums. I now need to think about how I can take my ideas and make them user-friendly.

Thanks again.

[bfguy]

test oops mistake please remove

[baron samedi]

Hello Carl,

After checking your PDFs ; your artwork is great, but your page setting could use a better engine to make it more professional looking. Especially, you could use your margins for better effect, using for example freeware "web page background" galleries.

I'm suggesting Scribus software, which is free and quasi-professional. You can find aid and guides online ; it's a poor man's version of QuarkXpress. The only bugs I had were the lack of performance from my computer (I went back to MS Publisher), but perhaps yours is better than mine :

http://www.scribus.org.uk/

Good luck!

Erick N. Bouchard
Quebec, Canada

[Carl Bussler]

Erick,

I use Quark everyday at work and I have both that and Publisher at home, but with the PDFs I spent more time on content than layout. The visuals will come after I get the meat of the project finished.

What I've decided after thinking over the weekend is that the material I have has some potential, but also some problems. I also realized that there are some things that would prevent the setting from really working with other systems. I'll explain futher...

1. Currently, the setting material has no obvious antagonist, whether that's an individual or group. I originally started the material with the concept that 'evil' all depends on your point of view. I despise alignments in systems and never use them. One man's rebel is another man's freedom fighter. I like that, but I think its more difficult to put into play. I might make some individual and organizations 'universally despicable'. If a player were to ally with that group, the player should become an NPC or something.

2. As I was thinking about the magi and the immortals in the setting, I thought about how their spells and abilities might affect the world around them. I decided that spells and immortal powers all have byproducts. Cars and power plants harm the environment. Spells can too.  Some spells are clean, and some are dirty, and will affect the environment and everything in it differently depending on which element the spell or ability is based upon.

Its very likely that fire spells are very dirty, water spells are very clean, and earth and air spells might be either or in between. I might classify the byproduct of spells and abilities as Corruption.  Not only might casting such a spell or using an ability cause a Corruption effect to the area, but it would add to the character's Corruption score. Once the Corruption score reaches are particular level, a Corruption effect or event is automatic. Character's should however be given the opportunity to burn off their Corruption with lesser effects, or use clean spells to remove that Corruption.

I also like the idea of Conflicted abilities, so I thought that Corruption might actually help improve the effectiveness of dirty spells, but would have a negative effect in other areas. Despite this, Corruption will reset itself to zero after it reaches a certain level and ends with a Corruptive Event.

After I came up with this, I realized I wasn't about to explain how a player might tweak his system to include this. Perhaps I should move this into another forum.

[baron samedi]

Hi Carl,

I see; sorry, I didn't mean to be disrespectful, its' only that human nature being what it is, an easy readable format makes reading easier. I'm the first guilty ; my first professional game's layout was monstrous. I'm still surprised that it sell... :-)

My opinion is similar to other people on this community : Find your game's niche, and make a specific product to fill it. What makes it different than other fantasy RPGs? Moreover, what *obviously* makes this game a totally different *experience* from other games in a crowded fantasy market? I think you should use the methodology of government program evaluation to conceptualize your game :

----> STATE YOUR GOALS IN A FEW CLEAR SENTENCES
----> SET TARGETS
----> DETAIL THE MEANS TO ATTAIN THE GOALS
----> MEASURE THE RESULTS OBTAINED AGAINST THE GOALS

As for your other questions, here's my humble advice. I've been published about 4 or 5 times for RPGs, but I've been through a lot of reviewers so you might want to hear from my experience, if only for a different opinion. I also worked as a freelancer for a few supplements for Steamlogic's Mechanical Dream RPG, a game which many people consider both a wondrous work in its originality and a catastrophy in its realization.

1. Currently, the setting material has no obvious antagonist, whether that's an individual or group...

In a crowded market, I believe you have to find a way for people to find IMMEDIATE interest in your game with its central theme, not simply the originality of its universe. For example, a strong weakness of the (very original setting-gifted) TEKUMEL Rpg, as reported on forums, was its very anthropological outlook and not "playable" outlook. I think a game should be a product available to use immediately; you read it down and
I believe this explains the popularity of RPGs like Star Wars, Werewolf and Vampire ; without a clear antagonist, you end up with players wondering what to do. Most roleplayers are challenge-oriented people, so I suggest you pick an enemy, wheter a group or a phenonemon (i.e. the world is flooding and everyone's fighting for available space). The Savage Worlds game are very strong at this : strong focus, strong antagonists and "action oriented" adventures, by which I mean "you have something to do". Same for Dogs in the Vineyard. I'm a strong believer in "mission oriented RPGS", where players don't just do avatarism but actually strive towards a clear goal.
You can keep your relativist perspective by simply allowing to play various sides of a conflict, like Heavy Gear and Vampire the Mascarade does. D20 Modern does so with its Allegiance system, a replacement for Alignment.

2. As I was thinking about the magi and the immortals in the setting...

I suggest you look at Dark Sun for a very interesting take on this issue. Arcana Unearthed and the Conan OGL games also have Corruption rules you might want to check, in Open Content moreover.
As for a variation of Corruption, try Star Wars d6 for a Dark Side of the Force bonus or Mage for paradox. I believe it's important that your character suffers personnaly, not just the environment.
In any case, I suggest you think what exactly you want to do with this game, e.g. the market niche you're looking for and the originality you are trying to bring from your very concept. E.g. "A fantasy rpg where one's magical power comes at the expense of others". This should be a major premise of your setting; I think you shoulnd't include magic just because all other games do, but for a specific effect. Keeping with your relativist morals and your analogy nature vs technology, your game could thus center around a conflict between defenders of magic-less world (protect nature and the traditional ways of life against an elite group of egoists destroying the world, aka sorcerers, at the expense of prosperity) versus enlightened defenders of progress against luddites (bring prosperity to the masses through enlightened magic, at the price of environment). There you go, with a Conflicted Gauge (i.e. Sorcery, or Synthesis, or whatever ; its level could be a bonus to magical effects but a similar penalty to social and "nature-orienetd" rolls) and a societal dilemma forcing your PCs to take sides. ;-)

As for your content's form, my suggestion would be to accentuate, for each paragraph, the added value for players and GMs by providing game hooks. That's the option I took in the game I'm currently page-setting, to maximize "word utility" per page, after many readers' comments.

Also, I'd suggest using tables for your content, to facilitate reading. For many people, reading long narrative texts can  make gaming reference more hard, while using a table for information makes reference quick and easy, as well as visual advantages you probably know of, since you're familiar with Quark and all. Many people will find text more easy over long pages when segmented into sections or tables. I'm a reader who's eye catches interest for these a lot.

E.g. Taking example on your text "A typical Deccan's view", it could thus become :

      Deccan      Culture 1   Culture 2   ...
Deccan      ----------      Opinion A   Opinion B
Culture 1    Opinion C   Opinion D   Opinion E

My readers gave very positive feedback when I organized, in my gamebooks, comparative information in tables or sidebars rather than simply as a main text.

Just my 2 cents. Do as you will with it, and good luck!

Regards,

Erick

[David Berg]

Carl-

It seems to me like you've already been offered a lot of quality advice regarding turning your material into an appealing product.  As for the content itself, let me answer your questions with my own first impressions (I have not yet read everything, as my ancient computer dislikes your PDF images):

1. Have I created something people other than myself find interesting for
a) their own system

Interesting?  Most definitely.  I am a big fan of settings wherein the world history has a lot to do with what's going on in any given campaign.  An epic, dramatic context is one of the things that gets me excited about beginning an adventure in a new setting.

Many of the systems I have created and run could work with this game.  However:

or b) a system designed with this world in mind.

A few system ideas that really drive home the unique aspects of your setting would help.  I don't see any need for you to concoct your own combat system, but it might be nice to have mechanics which measure the influences of the elements in various situations, and the influences of lineage in a given character. 

If this sounds interesting to you, let me know and I'll try to come up with some specific ideas.

2. Is the material presented in the gazetteer vague, confusing, not organized properly, or complete crap

Good table of contents (that may sounds like lame praise, but it's not intended to be).  Your organization choices make for a good read.  I can't think of any reasons to change it other than:
a) if the content itself is expanded/diminished in some particular directions
b) making it immediately useful to players (discussed in previous posts)

3. Have I left holes in the material? There are a few small items I'd like to add to the existing sections, but if it feels like something is missing, then I need to address that.

You have made one choice that I question: the length of intervals in your history are very long, with lots of dead space.  I made the same choice in a game I created, in order to add a feeling of grandeur to certain spans of history, and to highlight certain events and their world-changing significance.  I wound up reversing that choice, as I realized that:
1) very little appeared to have happened in my world in the last few hundred years
2) the material that I'd relegated to Ancient Times was the material that interested me the most and that I wanted to use most often

I've found recently that it can be more fun to talk about important events that happened 80 years ago than important events that happened 8000 years ago.  The connection of such events to the present day tends to make more sense and to be more involved and apprehensible.

I'd leave about one or two lifespans between each of these events:
1) beginning of Dark Age
2) end of Dark Age, beginning of Dei Dormono time
3) reintroduction of magic
4) suggested campaign starting point

A LOT can happen in 100 years...

I am responding largely to your timeline; if I missed something later on that contradicts this apparent emphasis on stuff that happened 3000-4000 years ago, my apologies. 

Also, if the default perspective here (the p.o.v. that'll be "normal" to players) is that of an immortal or extremely long-lived being, that certainly is a factor (though I still wouldn't ignore the pace of real-world human culture).

4. Have I gone overboard with existing sections? If a section feels bloated or unnecessary, then I should address that.

There is a lot of stuff in the "Societies" section that may have little relevance to play in any given game, depending on party composition.  However, I found it fun to read, and felt it enhanced my feel for the setting.  Perhaps putting the cultures' opinions of each other in sidebars (or minimizing them in some other way) would make the text easier to scan...

[Carl Bussler]

Again, many thanks to all the insights and suggestions. Erick, no offense taken regarding the layout. Your observation is correct. Once I get the core of the product fixed, I'll revisit the visual appeal of the product.

Also, great thoughts on the conflicts between power groups in the setting which emphasize the premise. It really isn't about good or evil, but about choices. A character can choose to abuse the world through magic or divine powers for personal gain and watch the world suffer (but with personal detriment as well), or defend nature against the abberations of magic and the immortal lineages, or thirdly choose to heal the world through the use of magic and divine ability (but probably feel the ire of both the other groups). A character could even choose not to choose, but that puts them in the middle of everything and perhaps without allies, or perhaps selling their services to the highest bidder.

I guess I can have my cake and eat it too. Through these opposed groups, the characters can have specific goals and conflicts, but it's still up to the player to decide which path is taken.

I had originally thought that the Church of Ningizia would be primarily (and initially founded as) a benevolent group, with just a few secret magi trying to use the church for their own personal goals. Now I'm thinking that the Church of Ningizia would be a great nemesis (or patron) if the entire church is in support of the corrupting magi who are now the power-wielding leaders of that organization. The characters are either for or against the church. There's no middle ground with them. It smacks of the Galactic Republic in Star Wars becoming the Empire, but there's only so many plots in the world, so I'm ok with that.

Also in relation to the church would be its opponents, the anti-magic group, and a third group which is more reconstructionist in that magic and the immortals aren't really bad, magic is just being improperly used, and the immortals are misunderstood.

I'll also look at the other settings you mentioned. I am familiar with Dark Sun (read the Troy Denning novels) and I actually got the immortal lineage idea from the bloodline rules in Arcana Unearthed. I was initially afraid to look through other campaign settings and systems for fear I'd accidentally use something, but the forums have opened my eyes to the benefits of analyzing other systems and materials.

David - good points made all around. I guess I just ran out of steam with the timeline. Looking back at the material, there's much of it that isn't directly pertinent to the characters. While the ancient history is interesting, more recent history would have more of an impact on characters. A good point that I'm sure to address with my revision.

Lastly, I have discovered the Power 19, so I'm off to fill-out that blueprint for the game.

Thanks again.

[baron samedi]

Hi Carl,

I'm glad my suggestions could be helpful.  If I may offer a suggestion : try for each and every one of your "power groups" to have both favorable and unfavorable consequences on the world at large, because this creates grey moral areas, which are fun to roleplay.

Let me explain ; my job is to councel government authorities on public policy. For every problematic (unemployment, pollution, etc.) you have opposing groups claiming their solution is the best , and they are right - from their specific perspective. However, almost any solution has its negative drawbacks - which is the reason why my job exists, to weight out the net balance between positive and negative impacts, and live with the chosen solution.

The simplest example, relevant to your game, would be economic development vs environment preservation.

GROUP A) More economic development means more jobs and wealth creation, thus people in better health, more happy, less sick, less urban violence, etc. However, the pollution created worsens the environement, long term health, etc.

GROUP B) More environment preservation means better air, more long-term resources and health, better global living conditions,  etc. However, the economic downside is job loss, poverty, short term health, urban violence, etc.

So which is more virtuous, A or B?

Well, it depends. You need to decide on specific issues to be sure, and both sides have radicals, etc. So when creating power groups for your game, say "Defenders of Environment" vs "Defenders of progress", I suggest you present things from their own perspective, leaving judgment for your players to make. Thus, using Conflicted Gauges with a neutral term, and ambiguity (like in the SORCERER RPG), is a good way to give your interesting fantasy setting a specific colour.

You'd be surprised at how people of all stripes believe themselves to be right and virtous. Even paedophiles justify their actions on pseudo-moral grounds (!!!). But that doesn,t mean they're right ; living is about making a choice. I think your game has thus great potential to explore Existentialism in "down to Earth" terms, much like Planescape was an exploration in applied Constructivism...

:D

Good luck!

Erick

[pells]

Well, Carl, seems like that thread is helpful... Good for you !!! I'll just add some of my advices.

I have given a GM some nails, some wood, and a hammer, and said that with these he can build a house. But, I have not supplied the GM with a blueprint, nor any instruction on the use of the materials or tools.

In my opinion, you should provide less wood and more hammer, so to say. Let the DM be able to add his own ideas, but providing him with a way to use yours. Wood is always fun to bring !!! If you provide too much of it, then it becomes very hard to use. Just provide what is useful, nothing more, nothing less...

About history
Yes, your history covers a lot of ground. You should add more, but be careful not to have a 20 pages history !!! So, just an idea : why not begin the description of each culture, each location, with their own personal history. You keep the overall history of the world, but you provide an overview of an element with his own history. And for sure, the history of each element won't be as long as the other. That may help, not only to point out what is important for that element, but also the reader with the restitution of the information.
One last thing : I believe the main problem with typical setting is the 'out of time' feeling. I think you want your setting to be part of a strong history. The present is now, and it derives from the past. That way, you'll raise stakes, immediate stakes, upon which the DM will be able to build an adventure. But that leaves open the question of plot... What do you intend to do with it ? As you raise stakes, plots also will arise...

About Point of View
As your overall history is something like a 'god's eye' point of view, you should emphasize the description of culture from their point of view. And what about adding some description of a certain culture from an other point of view ? And I'm talking about small descriptions, that would add a lot to the context. That should be fun to read !!!
I would also recommand, like others said, to avoid black versus white protagonists. Everything should be a point of view... And also, avoid to think that 'bad' characters are NPCs in your world. Leave the door opens to players who would want to play that kind of stuff.

2. As I was thinking about the magi and the immortals in the setting, I thought about how their spells and abilities might affect the world around them. I decided that spells and immortal powers all have byproducts. Cars and power plants harm the environment. Spells can too.  Some spells are clean, and some are dirty, and will affect the environment and everything in it differently depending on which element the spell or ability is based upon.

Great idea and a great starting point !!! Maybe think about the system later for that matter. But it's up to you...

Starting small
You seem to want to provide history and description of a whole world. Maybe you should begin smaller, while keeping in mind 'the big picture'. A single culture and location maybe, around which you work a lot, opening threads, links, to the other parts. That may be a good starting point to go with your new ideas. And you'll be surpised on how building a puzzle like that, all the pieces fall together... Oh, I thougth of that for this culture. I can use it with that other one !! I believe you've got the overall idea right into your hands. Might it be time to 'zoom in' on some parts, presenting a more specific, detailled history ?