[It Was a Mutual Decision] mechanics question

[Nev the Deranged]

Quick question which I didn't feel like starting a new thread for:

When ticking off scores, are the transformation threshholds the ORIGINAL scores or the Trust-modified scores? I am assuming the original scores, since otherwise it'd be possible to spend Trust to drop below your current tick-count for Trust, or to overcome your current tick-count for Needy and Stubborn, and it seems like you'd have mentioned that if it were the case.

So I'm going to assume the scores pretty much stay at their original values, and just get +1 modifiers to die rolls using them, except for Trust which has a sort a multi-layered meter (even though it's pretty much invisible mechanically).

If I'm wrong, let me know. I'm gonna try and pitch the game this Friday. Cross your fingers.

[Ron Edwards]

Too bad. I made it a new thread.

When ticking off scores, are the transformation threshholds the ORIGINAL scores or the Trust-modified scores? I am assuming the original scores, since otherwise it'd be possible to spend Trust to drop below your current tick-count for Trust, or to overcome your current tick-count for Needy and Stubborn, and it seems like you'd have mentioned that if it were the case.

Actually, it's the Trust-modified scores. And yes, both of those things you mention are mechanical options.

Metaphorically speaking, if you spend (burn) Trust to beef up some other score, and that brings your Trust below its tick-count to render it Murderous, that makes sense, right? It's just a really fast, extreme case of how Trust works in the game in general - it only exists to be abused, and doing so brings out the worst in people.

And the second option may buffer Needy and Stubborn a little, but remember that tick-marks are always applied to the currently lowest score ... so by dropping Trust like that, you've buffered Needy or Stubborn, but opened Trust up for transformation.

Remember that you can't spend Trust whenever you want; there's a specific point in the turn when you have the option, but at no other times.

Best, Ron

edited to fix quote formatting

[Nev the Deranged]

Too bad. I made it a new thread.

You go boy.

When ticking off scores, are the transformation threshholds the ORIGINAL scores or the Trust-modified scores? I am assuming the original scores, since otherwise it'd be possible to spend Trust to drop below your current tick-count for Trust, or to overcome your current tick-count for Needy and Stubborn, and it seems like you'd have mentioned that if it were the case.

Actually, it's the Trust-modified scores. And yes, both of those things you mention are mechanical options.

Metaphorically speaking, if you spend (burn) Trust to beef up some other score, and that brings your Trust below its tick-count to render it Murderous, that makes sense, right? It's just a really fast, extreme case of how Trust works in the game in general - it only exists to be abused, and doing so brings out the worst in people.

And the second option may buffer Needy and Stubborn a little, but remember that tick-marks are always applied to the currently lowest score ... so by dropping Trust like that, you've buffered Needy or Stubborn, but opened Trust up for transformation.

Remember that you can't spend Trust whenever you want; there's a specific point in the turn when you have the option, but at no other times.

Okay. Is it mechanically possible to reverse the transformation of a score by spending Trust, or is that pretty much never going to happen anyway? I tried wrapping my head around it but it started to hurt, so I'm just asking instead.

And so I'm clear, the only time "original values" for traits come into play is for... hold on lemme look it up again...

The score's new value does affect the number of dice rolled, but it does not change the score's rank. If it was originally 2 but is now raised to 3, it is still considered "less than 3" for various steps in the rules that concern ranking scores.

but I can't find anything in the rules where the original value is used, or any further mention of it at all. I'm probably overlooking something obvious, as usual. But I wouldn't mind a hint.

---
edited to fix Dave's quote-formatting
obviously a bit of an epidemic today - RE

[Ron Edwards]

Hi,

Name changes for scores are irreversible. Not a bad point to make, so I'm glad you asked.

I'm a little unclear on what your final question is about. Let me give an example of what the quoted rule means.

1. The women's team is playing a character named Zeke with a Stubborn score of 2. They have spent 1 Trust to raise it permanently to 3.

2. In some scene or other, they choose to use the Stubborn score and thus will roll 3 dice, plus whatever black dice they choose. They are opposed by Zelda's score (doesn't matter which) which has its original value of 3.

3. Conundrum! Which team gets to go first to choose black dice? Answer! The original rankings of these two scores had Zelda's 3 higher than Zeke's 2. Therefore Zeke's 3 is considered "lower" than Zelda's 3, for this purpose, and the women's team gets to decide about choosing black dice first.

That is the sole purpose of retaining a record of the original score values as they change during play. It is only applied when the real values (equal to dice) are tied. When the scores being opposed are not tied, then use their actual values to determine who goes first.

Best, Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

AH! Yes, that's it. I knew I had read it but I just couldn't find it when I scanned through looking for it. So it's a tie breaker for choosing black dice, and that's it.

Cool. I'm ready to fire it up tomorrow night.

Thanks!

[Ron Edwards]

It's also a tie breaker for who gets to spend Trust if they want to, following the same rule. You do that before the black-dice phase. Forgot to mention that before. But since it's the same rule followed in the same way, it's no big deal.

Best, Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

Got it. Thanks. I had assumed Trust spending was more freewheeling, but it makes sense to have a tie breaker. Almost more to force one team to commit to spending it first than to give them the opportunity to do so first, if I'm understanding it right. But either way, good to know.

[Nev the Deranged]

Ooh, ooh, another quick question:

Can Trust be spent on transformed traits? And if so, what effect does it have?

You already said transformed traits cannot go back, so I'm going to guess that either Trust cannot be used to change them, or that it can be used to boost them as normal.

Seems like most of the time Trust is gonna be the first to go, unless people try really hard not to spend it. But certainly if Trust was 5 or 6 and didn't get spent a lot it could be one of the last to change.

If you don't get a chance to reply before I leave (in about an hour) I'm gonna go with "Trust can still be used to boost transformed traits" and see how that works out. If it comes up. If I can get a game going.

Someone was talking about LAN gaming... why the hell you'd want to have people over to your house to play on xomputers is beyond me, although I guess it's not that different from console gaming. But anyway.

[Ron Edwards]

Trust can spent to increase transformed scores.

You can probably see that none of the scores are really positive features, under either original name or transformed name. Therefore the basic idea of spending Trust remains the same: destroying something valuable.

How this point relates to struggling against the name of the score rather than according with it (which as you should recall is handled, mechanically, exactly the same way), is something we should discuss after you've played some more.

Best, Ron