[Song Caverns of the Medru] and first post.

[Iggy]

Hello. First post here. Like many people however, I've been lurking for a few months trying to soak it all in.

And with my first post comes my obligatory first solicitation for feedback and help. :-P

The game I am working on is titled "Song Caverns of the Medru." It is a no-magic fantasy setting with slight elements of sci-fi.

Here is a link to my initial game notes and setting notes. It includes the Power 19. Its not very pretty right now, being just a collection of notes, but I tried to organize it as coherently as possible for people's perusal. If any of my notes are unclear please feel free to ask me to clarify via this thread or pm.

Initial Notes

Questions I have:

1.Is it running close to being too 'kitchen sinkish' thematically? I really enjoy exploration of setting but I am also trying have strong elements of group narration.
2.The 'Song Cavern' idea. In general does it seem like it would have repeat performance potential? Or would it be a 'one campaign and that's it' sort of game?
3.My idea for exploration of setting is that players will start out in a fairly detailed initial setting, and then explore beyond those borders, deciding as a group what is beyond. Do you think a highly detailed initial setting would stifle the creative potential of players to expand the setting?

Additionally, I have highlighted some areas on the pdf in red that trouble me. While perhaps not particularly germane to the "First Thoughts" forum any suggestions or comments on these areas would be more than welcome in pm or email.

It is probably quite obvious that the "song element" idea and group narration concepts I have are quite influenced by games discussed here at the Forge. I hope that is taken as a compliment and not as plagiarism!

-Ian

[Iggy]

Edit:

In my haste I realized that the pdf file does not have an explanation of what the Song Cavern/song element concept represents in the game world. Here is a brief description....This will make little sense without having read the pdf so for that I apologize.

The 'Song' of the campaign is, in the game world, actually one or more Medru communing within the concept of a song cavern. The players create the song, and in once sense, the players as a whole have a meta-character which is the Medru and his/her song. The song represents that Medru's attempt to predict/prophesize/cause a chain of events that accomplishes some esoteric goal that is not necessarily known to the players. The characters are perhaps unwitting, perhaps complicit participants in the 'song' and discovering/enacting the 'song elements.'

Sorry for the bump.

Ian

[matthijs]

Hey, Ian!

I'm sorry that at the moment I don't have the time to read through the PDF, but I still wanted to say - just as encouragement - that it actually looks very interesting after a quick browse. The background looks cool!

My suggestions to you:

1. Don't be afraid at all to let your design be influenced by other games. Every single RPG has been influenced by lots of other games; that's how they're made.

2. Don't get lost in your own private exploration of setting. It's lots of fun to sit and dream up background details by the keyboard - but that's actually fun the players could be having. Write down the bare-bones of what they need to know, and let them extrapolate on that. Avoid over-detailed timelines (of the type "On may 23, 3212, the fifth alien contact occurred in a small town in New South Wales"). Keep it digestible, and only include information you think players will actually use.

3. Let the players know about the song! Players are actually very good at keeping character and player knowledge separate, and knowing that they're part of a larger scheme - and what that scheme is - will give an extra dimension to the fun. In fact, this song thing is one of the most intriguing bits of what I've read from your game. Whether the characters know about it or not (or perhaps discover it along the way) is a whole different thing.

[Iggy]

Hey, Ian!

I'm sorry that at the moment I don't have the time to read through the PDF, but I still wanted to say - just as encouragement - that it actually looks very interesting after a quick browse. The background looks cool!

My suggestions to you:

1. Don't be afraid at all to let your design be influenced by other games. Every single RPG has been influenced by lots of other games; that's how they're made.

2. Don't get lost in your own private exploration of setting. It's lots of fun to sit and dream up background details by the keyboard - but that's actually fun the players could be having. Write down the bare-bones of what they need to know, and let them extrapolate on that. Avoid over-detailed timelines (of the type "On may 23, 3212, the fifth alien contact occurred in a small town in New South Wales"). Keep it digestible, and only include information you think players will actually use.

3. Let the players know about the song! Players are actually very good at keeping character and player knowledge separate, and knowing that they're part of a larger scheme - and what that scheme is - will give an extra dimension to the fun. In fact, this song thing is one of the most intriguing bits of what I've read from your game. Whether the characters know about it or not (or perhaps discover it along the way) is a whole different thing.

Hi, matthijs (Matt?)

Thanks for the feedback. :-)

With regards to #2...yes...that is a struggle for me. Its for me hard to separate rpg design from campaign design. The strategy I am leaning towards is to create that over-detailed sort of setting you mentioned....but then take a step back and pare it down to what I think would be most usable. The parts I cut would still leave some residue in the setting text by way of hints and namedropping of certain concepts and places, people, events, but without any real substance to them. My theory is that by creating a detailed world...and then scaling back, the scaled back version will have its basis in something that was fleshed out, thus...when players decide to flesh out the world themselves...a cohesive foundation is there. But perhaps that is misguided?

In response to #3... I've developed the idea a little since I last posted. The players would be involved in creating the song, along with the gm. The 'song elements' would be signposts so to speak. A song element might be something as simple as "A storm ruins the harvest festival" or as complex as "An army marches to south." The elements can also be vague...as in "A red bird flies into the nighttime sun."  The players (gm included) would generate a certain number of song elements at the beginning of the campaign. Then, during play, players (and gm) can introduce one of the song elements by expending some sort of 'song point' or whatever. The song elements would keep being introduced in no particular order until the last one. The last song element introduced is equivalent to the end of the song. It is up to the players and gm to craft a meaningful 'song' out of the individual song elements.
      So initially, neither the GM nor the players would know the meaning of the song, but they will create the signposts of it they will encounter along the way. During play the story will (hopefully) develop in such a way that it seems natural to signify it by utilizing a song element here and there.
      The characters need not be at all cognizant of any of it, even at the end when the meaning of the song has come to fruition.
What I am not sure about is whether to have the 'song points' distributed evenly (number of song elements divided by # of players +gm) or if they should be rewarded to players. Any thoughts?

Thanks again for the feedback :-)
-ian

[matthijs]

Cool, the ideas seem to be taking shape nicely.

Setting: I tried your approach for Draug, but found it extremely hard to trim the text. What you might want to consider is having a specific focus, and letting the players design something within that focus. For example, the focus could be a certain country, or army life; the players could then create the central village, or a platoon, together, within the framework of what's written in the game. You could provide structure ("Descripe the village head, who's usually a widow; the two major families of the XXX faction; the relationship between those families; and the village's attitude/beliefs toward the Song"), which the players fill in.

Song: I like the idea of song points. Are you sure you want them all planned in advance? What if, for example, the group planned a Major Song Point for each session in advance, and then each session, they planned a few extra just for that session? That way, it would be easier to modify the story as it unfolds. (A little like Prime Time Adventures' "Next Week On", if you're familiar with that).

[Iggy]

Cool, the ideas seem to be taking shape nicely.

Setting: I tried your approach for Draug, but found it extremely hard to trim the text. What you might want to consider is having a specific focus, and letting the players design something within that focus. For example, the focus could be a certain country, or army life; the players could then create the central village, or a platoon, together, within the framework of what's written in the game. You could provide structure ("Descripe the village head, who's usually a widow; the two major families of the XXX faction; the relationship between those families; and the village's attitude/beliefs toward the   Song"), which the players fill in.

Song: I like the idea of song points. Are you sure you want them all planned in advance? What if, for example, the group planned a Major Song Point for each session in advance, and then each session, they planned a few extra just for that session? That way, it would be easier to modify the story as it unfolds. (A little like Prime Time Adventures' "Next Week On", if you're familiar with that).

Hi Matthijs

By trimming back setting text I should have specified 'trimming back setting'. I meant to create a detailed world, and then scale it back to a region. But then still have references to certain places, people, events etc in a vague way....like...."to the south there are swamp people who wear boiled giant eel skin armor and engage in strange rituals" and leave it at that.

During play I wanted to have a exploration strategy somewhere along the lines of this:
(cut and paste from my notes so far)

V. Setting exploration
      a. areas beyond the map specifically uncharted.
      b. Hints of areas and situations in game text.
      c. Players can narrate an area...but not at the time they show up at it. But rather...for instance...Bobs character Jimmy is talking to NPC George. During the conversation Bob mentions something about Area X. As long as Bob isn't being disruptive whatever Jimmy mentions about the area  becomes canon for the campaign. Example 2....Play leads to the characters being hired to go into Locale Z for reason X. Before going....GM asks players to sketch out some basic ideas of what Locale Z might be like and maybe group create some NPCs. GM has veto power only as much is needed to maintain intrigue...if necessary.

Planning song elements as play develops. Hmm, that is an interesting idea. And it may prevent groups from painting themselves in a corner where they have song elements that would be hard to fit into the campaign as it developed. (by the way, I am defining 'song elements' as the aspects of the song and 'song points' as the currency that players use to enact the song elements)

But on the other hand, I like the idea of having the group know the song elements in advance. I think it would be more satisfying seeing it all fit together at the end.

Maybe there could be major song elements that the group creates at the beginning of the campaign. These would be song elements like "An army marches to the south" or "An emperor regains his throne" or other major sorts of events. But then at the end of each session the group could take a few moments to create minor song elements that would help propel the group towards the major ones.


-Ian

[matthijs]

How, exactly, are song points gained and spent? What are the effects of using them? What choices do the players have to make when managing song points as a resource?

[Iggy]

How, exactly, are song points gained and spent? What are the effects of using them? What choices do the players have to make when managing song points as a resource?

That is one thing I am uncertain about. I want there to also be generic 'hero points' for fudging rolls, character improvement etc. So I dont want to muddle the game with too many different sorts of resources. On the other hand, I dont want to roll up song points as something you can do with hero points. Hero points should be for your character, while song points should be more meta game for the enjoyment of the group.

Would 2 separate resources like that be too clunky?

As for how they would be rewarded and used......I have a couple possibilities, but they each need some fine tuning.

1. Each player just gets a certain number of song points at the beginning of the first session. The number of song points for the entire group equals the number of major song elements created at the beginning of the campaign.   
or...
2. One player gets the conch, so to speak. That player will be the first to enact a song point. After that, the player passes the torch to someone else who then enacts the next song point of their choosing when he/she sees fit. In this scenario, there are no 'song points' per se. This would make for easier bookkeeping. All players would need to keep track of are which song elements are left to enact and whose turn it is to enact them.

#2 is my favorite so far.

[matthijs]

The number of different resources isn't something you need to worry about at this point, I think. That's for fine-tuning. What you need to think about is what these resources do, and how players are supposed to spend them.

If song points are something players spend to make part of the song, with no other reward, it's just as well to say "At this and this point in the game, each player makes part of the song".

If there are other rewards tied to spending song points, it's a whole different matter. If, for example, you make a rule like this: "Spend a Song Point to get +5 on your next combat attack roll. Before the attack, narrate a vision your character has, which becomes part of the song. After that, narrate the attack" - then you give the players incentive to create parts of the song in specific situations (in this case, in combat).

There's positive and negative things to be said of both approaches; depends how you want them to fit in your game. (The second approach could actually be tied with Hero Points).