The psychology of combat

[Brian Leybourne]

On a final note, if you look at character progression you'll see it's very easy to improve from "crappy" (low priority choices) to "good/average" within a few games in several areas. Remember that you're not locked in with your priorities, they just get the ball rolling.

Jake

Very true, and in fact many skills would climb very quickly, it's not unlikely that many skills would get used three times in a session (particularly the 8 hour sessions we play). Of course, as your skills get better you're less likely to have them increase every time.

Given that, in fact, it might be better to prioritise skills below gifts, because it's expensive to buy off major flaws but easy/easier to increase your skills.

As an aside, did you get the file I sent you? It was just a preliminary look at the interface of the combat sim. Pretty dry, admittedly (and it's already changed a little) but I was hoping to get some feedback from you before I pressed on in case you hated it.

Brian.

[Bankuei]

Quick note, back on the thread subject:

I just ran a ROS oneshot and I do think having some method of slowing the "Mower through the grass" effect of one combat to the next may be a good option.  I'm not sure how I would implement it, probably 1 second of roll to identify next objective or something like that, but yes, most of our combats lasted 2-4 seconds(game times) and the longest was like either 5 or 6 seconds.  While that alone wouldn't be so bad, it was the sheer A to B combat factor of "one down, who's next?" that made things kinda sketchy.

Second, on the note: Characters are definitely not underpowered.  This session alone will have left pegleg carvers in the gameworld busy for a long time :)

Chris

[Mokkurkalfe]

Personally, I like the idea about a "panic roll" of some kind, and I really don't understand what the fuzz is all about.
I mean, it doesn't take very long to roll a WP/Battle roll to see if you keep your pants dry when you face two gols alone.

[contracycle]

How about this for a house rule: role the colour die for initiative, anfd if it is higher than or less than a threshold the GM thinks is appropriate, the character hesitates.  This on the basis that you're tossing the die anyway.

[Jake Norwood]

That's an excellent idea. Perpahps you have to roll under or WP , reflex, Proficiency, or something of the sort...

Jake

[Shadow]

Just wanted to support the idea of introducing hesitation, perception, morale and leadership.  Definately such should be considered when/if battle situations are added to the rules; on a larger scale, I've seen many "miniatures" battle systems out there where a whole battle takes what, half an our or less in "game time" while real battles could take days.  Why?  These systems don't account for time lost in perception, hesitation, general confusion and translation of command into action.  Great topic & thread Jeff started here, IMO.

[Jaif]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Shadow.  I've played with the rules a bit more, so here's what I have to say now.

1) Attack rolls (WP/battle to take initiative) aren't the design pain people here seem to think.  They're not an every-round thing, and in fact people often go white + ridicule anyway.

2) Attack rolls: I've settled on a system where I count successes: 1 is generally enough, but you need an extra 1 for more opponents, and another extra when you fight magic-based fear.  So, attack a zombie and you need 2 successes to initiate an attack, and 2 or more zombies are 3 successes.

3) Attack rolls: these aren't the anti-heroic things people paint them as.  In general, a fighting hero is going to make these, assuming you told them that the battle skill is important to begin with.  Even more, they'll be able to apply SAs, so it's not likely they'll fail.  However, their opponents may fail quite a bit, depending on their level of competance.

4) Perception rolls: Melee combat in Riddle is too fast, IMO.  No, I'm not arguing the speed of a duel, but there's just no way a person who just finished off one opponent moves 4 feet left and attacks another one second later.  It takes time for humans, no matter how brilliantly witty or heroic or whatever, to perceive their surroundings.

5) Perception rolls: Per/battle rolls have worked well for me in practice.  It's an easy way to deal with "3 successes? Ok, you look up and see that you've drifted from the door you're supposed to be guarding (1).  Your fighter-buddy is fighting another thug (2), and your talker-buddy is cowering behind him (3).  The other thugs? Roll again next exchange."

Last, on the idea of all this being "anti-heroic", I contend it's not.  In fact, these rules tend to slow down the enemies a whole lot more than the driven, passionate heros, which gives them more of a fighting chance against many opponents.

-Jeff

[Lyrax]

I don't know if rolling Per/battle is the best way to do it, IMHO.  My character has no Battle skill, because he doesn't ever plan to be in an army or fight in a war.  Yet he could still look around and see who's where and what they're doing (he's got a 7 Perception and a 6 Wit).

The way I see it, a Per/Battle roll would be used to see where the commanders are, what orders are being given, what formations are being used, where the flankers are, and other sorts of things that someone without the battle skill wouldn't know to look for.  If it's just a brawl, street fight or something similar, I would probably say that a Per/TN 8 or 9 would be used to see what's going on, and should only be made if the character is looking around.  Then, it doesn't depend on any skill, but on their perception attribute.

Also, you could use a Wit/Battle to determine how swiftly someone takes action on a battlefield, and Wit/TN 8 in a brawl or streetfight.  This is because there is a vast difference between the two.  Do you see what I'm getting at?

[Atomic Requiem]

I also doubt that Spiritual Attributes will even apply, unless it's such things as "Drive: Win the Tourney", "Passion: hates the tourney champion", "Faith: <specific deity>" (which could apply when fighting an infidel) or just plain ol' Luck. I'm not even sure they'll allow use of Spiritual attributes, which has been bruited about as the Central Mechanic of the game.

I might stay away from the SA when playing a tourney or what not. It seems to me that the whole purpose (adding power to desire/need/passion) turns into "Oh look, 7 extra dice to roll whenever,
'cause they're all luck dice."

I already see luck being an "easy out" to actually thinking about your character, thereby short-circuiting the whole purpose of them and simply making the character "that much tougher" in combat.

Just a thought. Anybody else feel that way about luck? It could even happen in a regular campaign, but at least there real passions, drives, destinies (for crying out loud) will get a chance to shine and make sense of the character.

At least, you should be certain to point this out in a tourney or whatever, because someone who thinks about the character (and/or takes the well made character) and takes reasonable and realistic SA as opposed to all luck will feel a certain lack of, how do you say, fairness. Or something.

Now someone will post about their concept for a well thought out lucky guy with a 12 page long back story that's more detailed than the most passionate, well-rounded sort I could think of. Fine. :)

*AR*

[Lyrax]

I don't see Luck as an easy way out... of course, my character is more lucky than Driven, Destined, etc., but that's not my point.

My point is that, for some people, Luck really is a great part of their personality.  They eventually depend on it for support, and, for some of them, it really does support them.  The Kozaks are a great Weyrth example.

[Jaif]

Atomic,

If I toss my munchkin hat on for a second, then luck & conscience are certainly "easier" than figuring out a drive or even - heaven forbid - a passion. Of course, passions & drives are more powerful in their effect, and much easier to use and earn experience in.

I'll say this about luck, though: while it's effect on rolls is minor, it will keep your character alive if you get very unlucky via the "spend a point" route.  No good munchkin should leave home without his guardian luck points.

-Jeff