[Chronicles of Erdor] Doing away with proper nouns?

[baron samedi]

Hello everyone,

I'm in the process of writing the 2nd edition and supplements of a French indie fantasy-oneiric RPG, and thinking ahead on how I'd do a translation-adaptation to English. Since the first edition was 500 pages long, and the new one about twice as big, I'm considering the experiment of giving it a narrower focus and a fully Narrativist system within 300 pages or so, comicbook format. I'm presently doing a bit of add-on Narrativist mechanisms such as partial narration control by spending tokens for the 2nd French version.

Now, for the English version, since the game has a mystic feel and theme to it ("Saving a dying world as Judges that interpret mystic omens"), I was considering the possiblity of reinforcing the oneiric theme by fully doing away with any proper nouns, for everyone (including PCs), and using just titles. I'm not talking about a somewhat small game with few background pages, such as (the excellent) Puppetland or Polaris, but more something with the proportion of Herowars or Runequest, with perhaps a 100 pages - .

Examples :

- The Phyrdrii plantmen would become Orchardfolk...
- The Edrian species would become the Very Ancient Race...
- King Mesarkus would become the Green King...
- The Kingdom of Asianor wouls become the Western Kingdom...
- A player character, Takisha, would become the Judge of Flaming Arrows...

English isn't my first language, so I'm not too sure how a reader would feel about it. (Sounds good in French, though). I'm trying to make it feel old, wondrous, mysterious and mystical, as could be (for example) a Tim Burton fairytale.

Would that be to weird, too unconfortable for an entire worldbook ?

Thanks for any advice!

Erick

[Josh Roby]

First, quibble, you're not talking about doing away with proper nouns, you're talking about doing away with nondescriptive proper names.  Orchardfolk would be just as much a proper noun as Phyrddrii plantmen, it's just actually descriptive rather than a cultural artifact (and here's me not going down that linguistic tangent).

I think this could be a useful tactic, although I wonder if it's something you should present or just a convention you should use.  I suspect this will give you a feel very much like Exalted.

[baron samedi]

Thanks for your answer, Joshua.

Sorry if I misused terminology. I don't quite understand what you mean by "something you should present or just a convention you should use".  What I meant is, "Orchardfolk" means something to the reader, while "Phyrdrii" doesn't. Same for characters : no "Ariel", but "Lion of God" (for that's what it means). I thought it might accentuate symbolism. If I choose this path as a convention, then no NPC in the adventure and setting should have a name... no? Please light my lantern. I don't know Exalted at all, sorry, except that it's grossly a fantasy-superhero game with "clans", not unlike Earthdawn and the World of Darkness books.

This world in this game (which is already written and not "in development", since I'm talking about a translation here) has 5 major civilizations, all very very different (say, like ancient India vs the Zulus vs the Thai). I'm not talking about introducing a cultural custom specific to a civilization : I'm talking about an entire universe where nobody at all has an individual name (like Dilbert), but a title instead used as a name (like "The Drinker of Coffee"). Even (especially) the PCs. What I was proposing was dropping 100% of all names, everywhere, except for the world's name. Not a cultural custom, but a game theme book-wide. ("Personal names don't exist".) Something to give narration a specific style.

The French version of the Nephilim RPG used this a lot (but not everywhere), but I wasn't sure how it would feel to the English world. I learned English through books, so I don't always feel the proper emotional sensitivity of given words. My problem lies there... I wouldn't want an open minded reader to be disgusted at the thought of reading the politics of dozens of NPCs without individual names, unless it feels right.

For example : "...In the jail lies the Nightwatcher in Wait, third son of the infamous Bearer of the Bleak Standards. The bloodthirsty general of the clan of Scarlet Suffering, however, cares nothing for his child, whom he sold to slavers....

Would something like that be too heavy/uncomfortable to read ? Or would it simply sound eerie, formal, impersonal... ?  I guess I'd have to use short sentences to keep the text flowing... But I'm really not sure about what it'd evoke at the gaming table. :(

[andrew_kenrick]

I always prefer a descriptive name (Orchidfolk) to a made up name. It just sounds more evocative to me.

Here's a thought - for PCs and other characters, could you link the descriptive names/titles to what they actually do, to their abilities? So the title is more than just a name, it's also a summary of the character. So if you met "Nightstalker, Slayer of Dragons" you'd instantly know he was some sort of stealthy assassin type, who has killed more than one dragon in his time. It could then tie the evocative nature of the names in with the narrative structure of the game.

[Mikael]

Everway uses almost exclusively descriptive names, the only exceptions being gods and dragons, if I remember correctly. I like it, it has a good feel to it, and it makes it so much easier to remember the names of all those NPCs.

[baron samedi]

Andrew, you've got exactly my idea right!

Mikael : knowing the positive reception Everway got, I'm relieved to learn this can actually appeal to people of the mindset I'm looking to attract! Thanks!

Since all players will be taking the role of Judges at the endtimes of their world, trying to make sense of the omens (a sense the players decide, not the GM), they'll all be named Judge of [what they do] (e.g. Judge of Broken Skulls), not Judge [New-agey Indian-like name] (e.g. Judge Feather-in-the-Wind).

For example, an archer and war oriented PC could be The Judge of Flaming Arrows, or the Judge of the Bloody Axe.
A healer type PC could be The Judge of the Merciful Flowers, or the Judge of Temperance, etc.

Since the mechanics will probably (in the English version) be player-created Traits (e.g. Over the Edge, Dogs in the Vineyard), should there be a formal mechanism to tie names with Traits to reinforce the theme through the mechanics, or leave it to the player?


Erick

[andrew_kenrick]

I think you could tie the theme into the mechanics better if the name was formally linked to their traits. Not by having a list of traits and a list of names that go with them (that would be proscriptive), but that you should encourage each player to pick the trait(s) that exemplify them, and use that as the basis/inspiration for their name.

[Castlin]

I learned English through books, so I don't always feel the proper emotional sensitivity of given words.
...
would it simply sound eerie, formal, impersonal... ?  I guess I'd have to use short sentences to keep the text flowing... But I'm really not sure about what it'd evoke at the gaming table. :(

Firstly, well done learning English from books. I cannot imagine that was easy.

Currently you're using written words to find out how something would sound when spoken. That may be a problem. Do you have any way you could get together with some native (or fluent) English speakers and try this out? That seems to me to be the best way to answer the question of how it would sound. Maybe there's a university nearby where you live?

I do think this is an interesting idea. A lot of "proper" names probably evolved from similar descriptors. Also, does this mean character's names would change as they performed deeds? And would there be anything to stop someone from taking a name that didn't actually describe them?

[Josh Roby]

I don't quite understand what you mean by "something you should present or just a convention you should use".

I mean you could either write a section in the book saying, "Names in this game are all descriptive phrases" or you could just name everything with appropriate descriptive phrases and let the players figure things out.  If you go the first route, presenting the naming convention, you'd probably also have to explain how and if names change over time, and maybe present how that happens, and I strongly suspect that character names would become a rather central element of the game.

[baron samedi]

Joshua, Castlin ; you're right, I should write a bit about how names evolve over time in the game. And I will. This is a great idea, to formalize it somewhat. My fellow designers thought it was perhaps a bit excessive, but I think we could hit something interesting.

As for English universities, you'd be simply amazed at how little people speak English fluently in Quebec outside of Montreal (which is over 3 hours' ride). I happen to do revisions of English translations of official documents for my Ministry *and it's not even my job at all* (I'm into reingeneering counseling) so you can guess how many native English speaking people there are in Quebec city, excluding tourists... Not much, actually (I know but one). The Web is really the only casual English contact I have with the world, outside of the rare consultant, which is why I have no problem reading Ph.D. dissertations on economics, but I simply can't understand slang or teenager speak. No problem to write something not too bizarre, but the "how does it feel" is always the nasty part...

Which is why I refrained mostly from writing RPGs in English so far. The only lengthy things I've published in English so far was an article in Pyramid and a campaign Mechanical Dream setting, a game whose corebook English was... well, lacking. My spoken English is as good as my writing (I don't check my spelling in forums, like many people do), but I rarely get the chance to talk about fairy tales and theater with other management consultants, in "real life"....  So I was afraid my idea'd be received with a brick and a lantern, as we say here (the lantern is to see you, the brick is to throw at you).

Thanks guys, you've relieved me from a bit of anguish.

Erick

[David Berg]

Erick isn't exaggerating -- I've played against a lot of Quebecoise frisbee teams, and those guys' English comprehension is usually pretty minimal.

Erick, I like your idea as applied to certain people's names (races, leaders, anyone with a reputation at what they do), but I like it less as a world convention (everyone).  What do farmers go by?  What about three guys in a mill in a nondescript town?  "Introducing, The Miller of Town-by-the-Crescent-Lake, The Assistant to the Miller of Town-by-the-Crescent-Lake, and The Apprentice to the Miller of Town-by-the-Crescent-Lake."  Yech.

if you met "Nightstalker, Slayer of Dragons" you'd instantly know he was some sort of stealthy assassin type

"Nightstalker" is an interesting compromise.  It is a unique proper name, not a descriptor like "The Green King", but it has a certain descriptive/evocative quality to it. 

I think this model ("Nightstalker, Slayer of Dragons") lends itself well to communication in speech because it provides a quick option ("Nightstalker").

Some connotations I'd be wary of:
1) Superheroes/supervillains - action-oriented descriptors (Nightstalker), animals (Wolverine), inhuman nouns (The Question, The Atom)
2) weird alien cultures with no sense of individuality (Miller, Assistant, Apprentice)
3) primitives (Town-by-the-Crescent-Lake)
4) mystics (Guardian of the Sacred Scrolls)

Something you might want to draw from is the convention by which Romans were named.  A given name (e.g. Julius) was accompanied by an adjective (e.g. Augustus, meaning, y'know, grand & dignified), and this adjective was replaced and updated (and sometimes added onto?) during life to better reflect the person.

-David

[Jeremy L.]

[quote who="David Berg"]Erick, I like your idea as applied to certain people's names (races, leaders, anyone with a reputation at what they do), but I like it less as a world convention (everyone).  What do farmers go by?

If I may be so bold: Erick is talking about an "oniric", ie. a dream world. Farmers don't "go by" anything in dreams; they each appear as "a farmer".

[baron samedi]

David, my idea is more like Jeremy's : this is oneirism, fairy-tale like stories.

Casual people don't have names. They have a name when they matter in the story : e.g. the Melancholic Farmer, the Girl Who Weeps by the Pond, the Farmer's Wife. It won't be "Girl-by-the-pond", because "names are titles", not "indian-like names". If the Girl Who Weeps by the Pond no longer weeps, her name changes, she could become The Girl Who Smiles at the Twin Suns, for example.

I won't use contractions or "word fusion" (I don't know the right word for differentiating "Nightstalker" vs "Stalker in the Night") to keep with the fairytale/biblical feel. A name will be about what someone does. "Wolverine" doesn't correspond to this, but "The Man who hunts Wolverines" would.

You've given me the idea of making a character's name as a formal trait in game mechanics. When they do something relevant to their name, they'll get a die bonus (e.g. "the Melancholic Farmer" gets a bonus with farming). Names will evolve and change in this game, like a Trait.


Erick

[Kesher]

Howdy.

I've been reading this thread with interest; Erick, maybe you know the game Reve?  I could never digest the pure crunchiness of the system, but man, that oneiric quality rocks!

Casual people don't have names. They have a name when they matter in the story : e.g. the Melancholic Farmer, the Girl Who Weeps by the Pond, the Farmer's Wife. It won't be "Girl-by-the-pond", because "names are titles", not "indian-like names". If the Girl Who Weeps by the Pond no longer weeps, her name changes, she could become The Girl Who Smiles at the Twin Suns, for example.

At first I didn't quite get what your beef was with "Indian-like" names, but that made it clear; I think that's a very cool idea, especially if you're gonna tie the names into the mechanics.

You've given me the idea of making a character's name as a formal trait in game mechanics. When they do something relevant to their name, they'll get a die bonus (e.g. "the Melancholic Farmer" gets a bonus with farming). Names will evolve and change in this game, like a Trait.

I would think, too, that they might get a bonus when they take an action somehow related to "Melancholic" or "Weeping" or "by the Pond" or "Smiling" or "the Twin Suns", etc. 

This is something that would definitely differentiate it from Everyway's use of names.

Maybe it's not the focus of this thread, but I'd be interested in hearing about your ideas for the rest of the system.

Aaron

[David Berg]

David, my idea is more like Jeremy's : this is oneirism, fairy-tale like stories.

Casual people don't have names. They have a name when they matter in the story

Ah, gotcha.  So instead of creating some weird culture with an alien mindset, it just creates a very subjective experience of "other", where everything outside of you is defined by what it means to you.  Is that accurate? 

If so, your naming conventions could reflect what the player characters would (likely) name people if it were up to them.  Something connected to the impression the person makes, rather than anything more esoteric or less immediate.  Context would be relevant -- meeting someone outside of their accustomed context would render their accustomed name nonsensical ("Here in the heart of the dark woods, we stumbled across Sweeper of Chimneys trying to hunt rabbits.").  But maybe you don't meet people outside of their accustomed context in a dreamworld...

I've never played a dream-logic RPG, it seems like it'd be very smooth and easy for solo play and much more complex for "party" play.

You've given me the idea of making a character's name as a formal trait in game mechanics. When they do something relevant to their name, they'll get a die bonus (e.g. "the Melancholic Farmer" gets a bonus with farming). Names will evolve and change in this game, like a Trait.

I like this idea a lot.  "Names have significance/power" is very compatible with "dream logic" in my opinion.

You might want to consider allowing the player characters some ability to bestow names on others, or to learn names that others wish to keep hidden.