Selling game play techniques to my GM

[Elysium]

James,

You are correct with one clarification/addition. I am perfectly willing to go about suggesting substantial changes to our play style, so long as that is something a GM is willing to try out with me. The easiest way I currently see to go towards getting improvements in our games is to suggest more gradual changes.

Consider that for the most part a 'yup!'  :)

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David

[Blankshield]

Oh, one other quick note before I shut up (Ok, two, having just seen your reply):

From now on, anyone who uses "forge jargon" or terminology in this thread (things like narrativist, or GNS or typhoid mary, or pretty much anything that isn't plain english and descriptive) will get beaten with a flaming club until they relent and beg for mercy.  This includes me; Ron can beat me if I slip up.  Nebulous terminology like "story" and "fun" will merely get jumped on and chewed like a dog toy until the meaning is wrung out of them.

Second, having seen your reply: Ok, cool.  Final clarification: Are you willing to change the overall play style if it is very clear that someone else is having less fun as a result?

James

[Elysium]

Sounds good. Yes, I am willing to change my style of play a fair bit to allow others to have more fun, and I do that currently. I'm looking to reduce that give and take, in finding new ways to play that everyone enjoys without as much compromise. If I find I'm reducing other people's fun, I would say I'm going in the wrong direction, at least as it regards that game group. I don't ever see some degree of flexibility and compromise in game style going away entirely. I'm cool with that.

One final point of clarification that V, my Shadowrun GM and another player in the 7th Sea game I'm in has asked. Is anyone in that group free to post in this thread, or is it just you and me for now, James?

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Thanks,
David

[Blankshield]

Anyone who sits down and plays games in your group is welcome and encouraged to contribute to this.

thanks,

James

[Blankshield]

Ok. Here's where I think we are: about three feet farther down the road than when the thread started - this is a good thing, because we're stopping to get a map.

We have a clear example of play you didn't enjoy, we have some description of what was actually happening at the table during that scene, and we have a bit of background on the group in general.  We know what you want to get out of this.  We know you have tried to introduce suggestions to move play in a direction you want it to go, and they have not been well received.


Let's start with something I'd like a bit more information on: rough makeup of the group. 

Let's focus specifically on the 7th Sea group for now, and to avoid confusion, we'll talk about the recently ended campaign as opposed to the one just about to start.

David, you've said that most of the group has been gaming together for 15-20 years.  Is it safe to say that, barring one or two exceptions, the group is between 30 and 40 years old, with the bulk of the people within a couple of years of each other?

How many people have created characters for the game this GM was running?

Of those people, how many show up for three games out of four?  I'm not intested in "7-8 each game" - we already know that - I'm interesting in how many people are consistent attendees.

For this next question, you may need to step outside your head a little, as it requires a bit of an impersonal self-check:

You've said the group does movies and stuff together as well as gaming.  For most of those non-gaming social events, which of this is more frequent:

"X and Y aren't going to be here this week, and I'm totally burnt from a crappy week at work.  Do you guys want to catch a movie instead?"

"Hey, Pirates of the Carribean 2 is coming out, let's go see it!"




Now, pick a scene in the 7th Sea game, similar to the "burned at the stake" moment that you give in the first post, except this time pick one that was a high point you want to see more of.  Just like with Ron earlier, I'm less interested in the raw fictional content than in the actual people at the table, and their reactions and what they were doing.

All of these are questions that both you and Vulpin and anyone else from your group who wishs to join in is welcome and encouraged to answer.  One caveat: please don't reply right when you read this.  Go away, think about the questions, come back later tonight, or better yet tomorrow.  This kind of back and forth is vastly improved by a slower, more thoughtful pace.

thanks,

James

[Elysium]

Ok, I'll try to handle these questions in order.

With a few exceptions, the group is in the general 30-40 year range. We spread fairly evenly across that spectrum, though, not all within a few years of each other. I'm 30 myself, and have been gaming with the folks in this general group for about 10 years, off and on.

I'm a little unclear on the character creation question. Are you asking if we had more players create characters for the game, and then narrowed it down to just the people that played in the game, or are you asking if the characters were created by the GM and given to the players?

I'll describe character creation for the 7th Sea game that just came to a close, to be clear. The players of the game were known ahead of time, and all the players created one character, that they would play. There was a slight degree of talk among the players during the previous game, for character creation... I recall that most of the player input focused around where to set the game. The GM then added points and tinkered with the characters a bit, adding various minor things... that was something that was new to me.

As to attendance of this game, it was very rare to have somebody not show up. One player was an exception, due to having a pregnant wife, and then a new baby needing more of his time. That definitely comes first.

For the movies and such, it is definitely all the later, where we go to movies or other events during non-game times. If we're too burned out to game, we usually cancel until the next session, with as much warning as we can give. I can't see anyone objecting if a game were to be called due to being brain dead from work, and them asking if folks wanted to see a movie instead. We would just appreciate the warning ahead of time. I could see it happening, and can think of a few times that it probably should have been a movie rather than game while burnt out. I just can't recall anyone doing that.

The most fun I had in the 7th Sea game... there were quite a few fun scenes, mostly little interactions with other characters, but not many really stand out. One that does stand out for me was in a series of scenes linked by a plot concept. It didn't end well, but I had fun with what was included, and was very much looking forward to it being finished.  I'll try to include as much player interaction and as little plot as I can. The plot is what stands out the most in my mind, unfortunately, as I wasn't too focused on watching the reactions of the players at the time. Most of it was quite a while ago, so the memory is fuzzy.

Before one game, the GM gave us all a bunch of Everway fantasy art cards. I don't remember the exact framework that he used, but we were told to come up with a possible story/plot/idea based on the art on one of the cards we had... basically the GM was fishing for ideas with that prop as the focus. The GM would use the ideas or not, as it suited him. I eventually came up with the idea that linked my character in with a big event I knew was coming up in the published game world's timeline. The GM seemed pretty happy with the idea, as he wanted to get to that story and hadn't known how to link it to our group. A couple of players that also knew the future of the game world's timeline a bit were nodding and seemed happy with the idea too.

It wasn't until a session or two after I gave the GM that idea that the GM gave the intro for it. He gave my character a dream, which I chose to have my holy knight character view as a divine warning. This story was a side note to the GM's plots, and spread out over the course of many sessions. I turned my character from a warrior into more of a scholar as he researched this. There was a bit of banter between characters on this subject that was pretty enjoyable, and a couple other players seemed to get into it, when it came up.

Eventually the GM had all the 'mystic' types in the game world have the same dream, finally convincing folks that my character wasn't just a crazy. After this researching the dream warnings became more and more the focus of my character. It was still a sideline to the stories the GM was running us through, and rarely mentioned or dealt with.

The next to last session of our game ended as my character was traveling to a town just a little ahead of the rest of the group. Everyone else was going there to perform a task the GM gave them rather directly through an NPC. My character had no reason to go along. Not wanting to split the group up, I invented a plot point related to the character's focus story and gave it to the GM to approve, which he did.

The GM cut the game short unfortunately, as I think I mentioned before. My character discovered nothing in that town, just a rumor coming to nothing. We did a final adventure that was pretty much disconnected from any of the previous games. I don't think any character got to finish their particular focus story for their character, so many ending up in worse spots in their story lines than when they started.

I wish that this or another story focus had been there from the start of the game, had been shared among the characters, not just focused on my character, and that we had actually played out that story to the conclusion.

---
David

[Blankshield]

Ok, I'm going to be a pedantic ass here and note that you didn't actually give what I asked for.  Useful information, absolutely, in figuring out where the play you want is, but I can't tell from what you posted what the one, single scene of awesome was.  Was it the Everway cards?  The second to last game, something in between? 

Pick a single scene, similar in scope and length to the witch burning scene, that you enjoyed.  I'm not asking for "chorus-of-angels, multiple orgasm, dear-god-that-was-perfect" gaming, just something that was fun to play out.


Beyond that, I've got a set of very system specific questions:

How did you folks use the 20 questions?

How often are Drama dice awarded (above the base "start of Story" amount)?  Related question, how often do you resolve Stories and refresh Drama dice?

How many characters have backgrounds, and how often are they used?

Ditto for Virtues/Hubris?


thanks for being patient as we work through these questions!

James

[Elysium]

Today I realized I'd been limiting myself to trying to think of scenes that I enjoyed that had my character as a part of the scene. I don't think I need to do that. Here's a scene that mainly focuses on another player, which I did some small bit in, but which I enjoyed it greatly as a whole.

A slight bit of set up first. The other player's character was Die Kruzritter, part of a secret society of anti-sorcerous knights. Officially the character was a dead man, while his very much look alike cousin was alive. In actually he assumed the cousin's identity and went to a remote town far from his family.

One game the GM surprised that player by having a former love interested of the dead cousin come to the remote town we were living at. The NPC announced she had finally tracked down her husband, who she had secretly eloped with, but shortly after ran off and left her.

Watching the player's surprise over the situation was a laugh. He dealt with it great, claiming he had head trauma and forgot many things.

We had a fun with character banter and teasing, and everyone was enjoying it. Later the 'wife' was spied sneaking off to secret meeting, and was discovered that she perhaps knew a bit too much about Die Kruzritter. This meant she had to die. We could all tell the player didn't want to carry through with the killing. He was going to, however, and had his character take the 'wife' for a walk around a nearby lake. I decided my character and his lover were walking along the same lakeside that the killing was planned for, and so there I was, interrupting the killing in a rather 'accidental hero' sort of way, with my character clueless that any problem was happening. It was played out as a rather funny comedy of errors.

The GM after that ran the other character through a bit of story that allowed the other player's character the option to watch his 'wife' further instead of killing her to hide his secret. We were all happier with that resolution to the problem.

As to your question on the other scenes I described previously, the cards weren't really important to me. What I cared about was that my character had direction that was of significance to the plot of the game. It gave me a focus to do more in the game than just react to events happening, but that I had hoped would actually influence the direction of the events. The scenes that I enjoyed because of this were with my character telling other characters about his first warning dream, and having them just think he was crazy. A few game sessions later after everyone had the same dream, it was amusing having my character vindicated to some degree. The players of course all knew the dream was real, but I had fun playing out the reactions between characters.

On to your other questions.

We all filled out the 20 questions and gave it to the GM. We also have an optional 100+ question sheet that we often use for various games, that was altered to fit 7th Sea world. This was used the same way we used the 20 questions, with more/different details. I don't think anyone was keeping them private from the other players, but nobody went out of their way to talk about them with each other either. I didn't get any feedback from the GM, and am unaware if anyone else did either.

Drama dice awards are something that the GM was trying out a few different house rules for. I'm not sure if this was his intent, but in general how it worked out is that we had a large number at the start of the session, were awarded only a few during the actual play, and ended randomly with most or all of them, or very few of them. It seemed to me to be mostly useful for insuring that very few dice rolls would fail, unless you didn't care too much if the roll failed or not. XP was unlinked from spending drama dice, so there was no motive to hoard them, aside from perhaps saving them 'just in case' for the final scene of the session.

We resolved a story about once a session, with the next session starting where the other left off. A game session would be about 10+ hours of play, plus a 2 hour break for food. Drama dice refreshed at the start of each game session.

I think all the characters had backgrounds. They were dealt with to greater or lesser degree, maybe 2 to 4 times per background in the entire run of the game. My character's background was probably dealt with the most in terms of game time, with much of one session devoted to it, and a few other smaller scenes in other sessions. Many other backgrounds did little more that get a brief mention every so often by the GM. Some backgrounds were starting to be hinted at starting to be explored, but were not developed more than a brief intro.

I think we all had either a Virtue or Hubris, fairly evenly split. They were brought up fairly infrequently, maybe once in a game session, every one to four game sessions.

Hopefully these will answer your questions a bit better. Thanks for your patience as well, and feel free to apply boot to the head if my answers wander too far off the path from your questions.

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David

[Blankshield]

Awesome, thanks.  Two last questions, one's a quicky, one's a "think for a while":

Quick: Were any of the backgrounds tied into the main plot of the story?


Why were none of the scenes you highlighted as enjoyable involving your background?

James

[Elysium]

There were a couple backgrounds that were tied in with the main story of the game, but only minorly. The plot could have been run the same without them. Most of the backgrounds were not tied in at all, and were only brought up as side stories.

None of the scenes I highlighted involved the background of my character. I didn't particularly enjoy or dislike the game play during the times my background came up. It was always a 'hrm, this could develop into something really interesting' sort of reaction.

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David

[Blankshield]

Ok, here's what I'm seeing fairly clearly from all the information here.  Fair warning, it ain't exactly pretty.

1: It's very clear that, whatever brought them together initially, this group is friends first and roleplayers second.  When they get together, they do so to spend time with each other, and roleplaying is secondary to that.

2: You want roleplaying to be primary.

3: That's a fundamental incompatability and there's fuck all anyone can do about that.  You have different priorities than the group does.  You're the golfer who wants to make the US Open, and you're teeing up with guys who are there to kick back with a few beers where their lives can't find them for a day.

-------
Now, all that being said, you've got a choice.  you can:

a) Shrug, and live with it.  Agree that with these folks beer and golf cart races are where the fun is, and decide to enjoy that.
b) Shrug and move on.  Don't dump your friends (screw that!) - keep doing movies and BBQ's and the rest, but find another group to roleplay with that's more up your alley.
c) Try to change this group.

C is what you've been doing, and what you came here for advice about.  So, I've got some stuff there, but before I say any thing, be very aware that using option c is telling your friends, straight up, "your fun sucks."

That is really the big reason you haven't gotten anywhere with your suggestions and attempts so far.  It's really nothing to do with jargon or them being resistant to new ideas or whatever, it's because you are saying "This isn't fun." It doesn't matter if you add the "...for me" caveat on the end, you're still telling your friends that the way they game isn't fun, and you know what the "right" way is.

So, how can you constructively try option c? 

First, back way off.  Leave off the forge-jargon, stop talking about cool new games you read about, or that awesome Actual Play thread.  Drop all of that stuff.  Your friends, the 7th Sea GM in particular, are dug in behind sandbags with a .50 cal pointed at you.  Anything that comes from that direction is going to get shot down without even a fair hearing.

Second, apologize.  Think about what I'm saing in this post, and if you honestly agree that you've been playing the "forge gaming is awesome" with the implicit "and your gaming sucks" card, apologize for that.  Acknowledge to this guy that you went over the line in pushing for what you want by not realizing you were stepping on their fun.

Third, recognize that in a traditional GM-players setup, the GM does 90% of the work, both before, during, and after the game.  So anything you suggest, especially to someone who's been GMing for a long time, translates instantly as "more work" and "do this for me".  Doesn't matter how carefully it's presented, it goes through that "fuck, more work" filter first.  Kind of like phone calls at suppertime go through the "asshole telemarketers" filter even before you get to the phone and see who's calling.

Fourth, start very simple.  Ask - ask - if it's OK to have one of your backgrounds tied to the main plot, because you think you would enjoy that more.  A supporting cast member as your Nemesis, or the villian's daughter as your Romance, something like that.  If he says "No", you say "OK" and show good faith by not bitching about it.  Ask again next time the game changes.

If you are able to make changes, and that's not guaranteed, it will be slow, and happen over time, and you need to be very up front about what you're doing.  You need to develop the patience of a saint.  Think of yourself as the one jazz fan in a roomful of country and western folks, and you get an idea of how slowly and patiently you need to suggest possibilities.  And always being prepared to hear and accept "Naw, I prefer Hank Williams."

However, don't dismiss options A and B out of hand.  One of the reasons I hopped in here, is that there is a weekly 7th Sea game in my basement that's been running forever, and that gaming group could be cloned person-for-person from the group you describe.  My wife still plays that, and has a frickin' blast.  She's decided that option A is a good one, and just kicks back and relaxes.  I don't play with that group anymore, and we're still friends - some of us overlap in other games, we go to movies together, and do all that other social stuff that friends do.  We just don't play 7th Sea together on Monday nights.  Option B. No harm, no foul.


thanks,

James

[Elysium]

All of my GMs have told me they have a stated goal of becoming better GMs and that they want their games to be more fun for their players. I have not been attempting to use forge jargon save with Vulpin, my Shadowrun GM, who wanted to learn it along with me to better understand some of the articles and positions here, and to improve communication. I have not been mentioning games that I saw mentioned at the Forge save for with my weekly L5R GM, who owns a couple of the games in mention, and I've since found out is wanting to try out Polaris or Capes sometime. I passed along the suggestion of Dogs in the Vineyards to him, as so heavily pushed by others. I think he might enjoy that game, actually.

My 7th Sea GM has said that he realizes he has a weakness as a GM. He thinks, as advised by other GMs and players in our gaming circle, that this weakness is that he is failing to provide a distinctive plots to his games. He feels his players have been largely floundering with not much to do, if he doesn't do that.

Your fourth point seems like a good suggestion. It would likely take reworking the new character a little bit as we've already made characters but have not yet started to play. I tried to make the character in general suit what the GM said he wanted out of the game already.

Luckily, patience is something I have in abundance. :)

The discussions with my GMs has progressed a bit further. I have passed on a couple links to them, http://www.lumpley.com/hardcore.html, which universally had a 'I hate this' reaction. I then passed on the link
suggested here http://bankuei.blogspot.com/2006/02/flag-framing_03.html which both my L5R and Shadowrun GMs rather liked. I've not yet heard back from my 7th Sea GM on that.

I've talked over with the L5R and Shadowrun GMs about why they hate it, and found they interpreted these articles wildly differently than I did. I've since explained what I found useful in them, and what I liked about them. This has been more helpful, and I've gotten some level of agreement between us now, I think. We're making some progress. I've yet to heard back from my 7th Sea GM.

I can say we've gotten a partial success so far, at least.
---
David

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Time for me to step back in again ...

Because although James has tried heroically, and although you've certainly been willing enough to consider his minor points, I'm seeing that this thread no longer has any reason to continue.

Compare your last post to your first one. At first, you were saying, "I'm not happy with this game I'm in and specifically not with the way this guy GMs." You were pretty forthright about that and sought our help in justifying your position. Now, you're saying, "Everything's really OK, and on its way to being better."

For all I know, you're saying exactly how it is and the whole game-situation, group and all, is improving just as you'd stated earlier that you wanted it to. In which case, fantastic, we're done here because the ground conditions for the thread are now transformed.

It is also possible that you aren't willing to examine the larger points that James just made, and that I had talked about earlier in the thread, which is that this group is simply not giving you what you want, period. In which case, all right, those points are not what you want to hear, and that's pretty much all we have to give for that issue, so we're done here because there's nowhere to go.

Either way, that's all there is. I really don't see that any discussion remains, so I am inclined to close the thread. Since I don't want to be a complete ogre about this, feel free to suggest a new topic for discussion, regarding this game, if you'd like, and if you think some aspect of this thread has remained undealt with.

Best, Ron

[Elysium]

Except for my 7th Sea GM, I would say things are improving, yes, thanks in part to some tips I got here. The 7th Sea GM may or may not come around. Perhaps the other two GMs can pass on what they're learning, in their own way. He's a player under both of those other GMs, in various games, only one of which I am also a player in.

As to not considering James' points, I don't think that's an accurate statement. I think in part we are talking past each other. Perhaps I'm not explaining my situation well enough or James has seen a few too many situations that are similar on the surface that do have the underlying problem that he sees in my case, I don't know. I do think it's a definite case of misdiagnosis in a couple key areas here. Other parts were helpful and accurate, though, so it was far from a futile thread, for me.

2 of my 3 GMs have started actively and helpfully discussing some of these gaming methods with me, so I consider it a win.

I will likely post a new thread once we have actual play experience where we are trying out some of these methods. As a side note, seeing that some people actually use Dogs in the Vineyards to run Serenity games have caused me to rethink my earlier position on that game. Perhaps we will give it a try.

Thanks everyone,
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David

[vulpin]

Ok. Here's where I think we are: about three feet farther down the road than when the thread started - this is a good thing, because we're stopping to get a map.

We have a clear example of play you didn't enjoy, we have some description of what was actually happening at the table during that scene, and we have a bit of background on the group in general.  We know what you want to get out of this.  We know you have tried to introduce suggestions to move play in a direction you want it to go, and they have not been well received.


Let's start with something I'd like a bit more information on: rough makeup of the group. 

Let's focus specifically on the 7th Sea group for now, and to avoid confusion, we'll talk about the recently ended campaign as opposed to the one just about to start.

David, you've said that most of the group has been gaming together for 15-20 years.  Is it safe to say that, barring one or two exceptions, the group is between 30 and 40 years old, with the bulk of the people within a couple of years of each other?

How many people have created characters for the game this GM was running?

Of those people, how many show up for three games out of four?  I'm not intested in "7-8 each game" - we already know that - I'm interesting in how many people are consistent attendees.

For this next question, you may need to step outside your head a little, as it requires a bit of an impersonal self-check:

You've said the group does movies and stuff together as well as gaming.  For most of those non-gaming social events, which of this is more frequent:

"X and Y aren't going to be here this week, and I'm totally burnt from a crappy week at work.  Do you guys want to catch a movie instead?"

"Hey, Pirates of the Carribean 2 is coming out, let's go see it!"




Now, pick a scene in the 7th Sea game, similar to the "burned at the stake" moment that you give in the first post, except this time pick one that was a high point you want to see more of.  Just like with Ron earlier, I'm less interested in the raw fictional content than in the actual people at the table, and their reactions and what they were doing.

All of these are questions that both you and Vulpin and anyone else from your group who wishs to join in is welcome and encouraged to answer.  One caveat: please don't reply right when you read this.  Go away, think about the questions, come back later tonight, or better yet tomorrow.  This kind of back and forth is vastly improved by a slower, more thoughtful pace.

thanks,

James

A little belated, and not sure if it's kosher given Ron's comment, but for what it's worth here are my answers:

***** The general group itself has been gaming together for 11-16 years, as a clarification.  Each of us have been gaming in the 15-30 year range (myself since '81).  I do believe you're right about the general range, with two exceptions in the old game and only one in this new game. (the oldest one had to leave due to the rest of his life interfering - and is so honest that I am sure that is why he left)

***** A grand total of 9 characters were created for the game, though one was disallowed from joining (the reasons vary depending on whether you ask her or the GM), and one created HER character very late in the game's run.

***** Other than the one with younglings, most of the group showed up at each game.  I'd say 6 were 75% (once the late addition came in, before that 5).

***** Most of the times we do non-game social stuff, it's the latter.  I'm sticking to the 7th Sea game for this - with other games we have actually done impromptu social interactions in lieu of a cancelled game.

(Scenes that inspired...)
***** This is a hard one due to my sometimes spotty memory and some trouble separating player from character response.  I think the best example I can think of is early on, at a ball.  Some of the highlights include a very unlucky character dealing with romance (he had a trait that basically gave him a wandering plot point of very high potency, and at this point said point was "Romance."), my own stalwart knight being put in an awkward social situation with a woman who wanted him (while he was pursuing courtly love with another), essentially a lot of non-combative situations that most (if not all) found something to do.  The spotlight was, primarily, on one player's character, but there was enough interaction and plot-light (to coin a word) on the rest of us.

***** Another time was one of higher action combat, where our stalwart heroes were involved in some daring-do.  The people were paying a lot of attention to their aspects (there were essentially two high-action scenes taking place at the same time, thought they collapsed into one fairly seamlessly), including taking the information they got in character and reaching interesting different conclusions, assuming that the first group to pass a way were in worse trouble.  We had lots of opportunity for the characters to do "cool" things in a genre-convention sense that seemed to interest the other players.

Thanks for your consideration,

-Vulpin