[Divinity Horizons] Epic Playtesting

[Spooky Fanboy]

The idea is to add two new values to every character: Destiny and Renown. We only have a few vague ideas as to what those traits will do, but we know that Destiny, at least, will determine when your spirit is "bright enough" to gain a new shard--IOW, determine how many godshards you can have and when you're entitled to a new one.

Destiny will go up whenever you change the setting in a significant way. It will start with small changes, and have a sliding scale that gets progressively harder to increase your Destiny. Renown will be a much more temporal trait, waxing and waning as you do things to win renown or to lose it.

I will post more on this when we get our ideas a little more ironed out. Perhaps in the First Thoughts forum? Or can I keep discussing it here?
I can't thank you guys enough for all your questions and ideas. Keep'em coming!

Generally, I'd say if you're still just brainstorming, put that thread in First Thoughts. If those ideas were playtested, and you got results you weren't expecting, or still aren't satisfied, then ou'd talk about them here.

And so far, I like the idea of Destiny and Renown. But let's see how they play with the system.

[sean2099]

It's hard to make comments not already introduced here but I picked up a copy of WarGods by Crocodile Games from Gencon.  It has a similar concepts even though it is a wargame.  It has a system for renown/destiny which they call Ka.  Every time a rival leader is defeated in ritual combat, the victor has a chance to absorb their lifeforce, depending on how powerful the opponent was.  It is based on ratings and of course with most wargames, a dice roll is involved although you could find subsistutes for die rolls.  It allows give thematic examples of powers for different gods.  If your resources allow it, I would take a peek at that game as well.  If not, then a sliding scale could work as well.

[Lance D. Allen]

So, alright. Some new ideas. Awesome.

What would make you lose Renown? It's easy enough to figure out what would make you gain it. Slay a monster, save a damsel, abolish slavery. But what would make you lose it? I'd imagine that even 'evil' actions would raise your renown.. Maybe people wouldn't like you, but if you destroyed a town for it's insolence, I'd imagine that people would be likely to obey you in the next town you roll into. You did mention that the Amalga could be the settings villains, as well, didn't you? So if that's the case, I honestly can't think of much that will lower it.

And what would make you lose or gain Destiny? Some idea of these actions would need to get nailed down.

Also, I'd like to offer an alternate word from destiny. Destiny implies a certain amount of predetermination, and it seems to me that the point is that the PCs are determining the destiny of the setting themselves. So my suggestion is Arete, a greek word meaning excellence. It is a related word to Aristeia, which specifically means a warrior's excellence. However, Aristeia was used as a major concept in Burning Wheel, so you may not want to use that one.

Anyway, good things!

[sean2099]

One way to solve the loss of renown...perhaps there are different types of renown.  If the Wushu comes correctly to me, perhaps their renown could be named...ie I want to be known as a good guy renown vs do anything it takes to win renown for instance.  Destiny...I will have to think about it.

Thanks,

Sean

[Sovem]

I've made a new thread to discuss this to avoid stepping on any forum's toes. To wrap up the discussion on this thread:

Wolfen: Renown would probably only be lost if you disappear from the public eye for a long time. And the idea behind calling it 'Destiny" was that the characters were taking ahold of the reigns of mankind's destiny (and their own, to a certain extent), which had previously always resided in the hands of the gods.

Sean: that's a neat idea for Renown. I'll run it by my co-creator.

[Sovem]

I don't have too much to post about our playtest last night; certainly not as much as the previous game. Peter is no longer able to come, so it was just Andrea, Bain, Brandon and myself. We picked up right where the last game left off and immediately dove right into an argument.

The nature of the argument is too much to get into here, but it had to do with the way Wushu works. Looking back, I think the major problem was just a series of kneejerk reactions that might have been dealt with had everyone not started to give their opinion at once, thereby leading to confusion and much chaos. I remembered someone saying that one should never change rules in the middle of a playtest, so I declared that we would use the rules as written and debate them after the game. Everyone agreed, and the circumstance everyone was worried about never even happened, so we didn't really get to see how it worked. I ended the game a little early, to give us a chance to discuss the issue again. Again, tempers flared. In the end, it was determined that we were all pretty much on the same page. After further discussion and a quick look over what other Wushu players have said over the years, we've decided that, in the end, none of the rules variants proposed by anyone really would have made that big of a difference, and it certainly wouldn't ruin the game the way some of us were fearing.

So, as to the game itself: once we got past that little kink, we actually had a pretty good time. If you recall, the Gymantiks had just regenerated. They fought them and defeated them again. I was quite pleased to see the way Brandon dealt with the mantis--a lot of people new to Wushu have this hangup where it is difficult for them to see that when they force a nemesis into the negative and win the right to a coup de graces, it doesn't automatically mean you have to kill them. He clued in to the way the stalagtites and stalagmites seemed to melt as the Gymantiks had reformed, and he used his coup de graces to trap the mantis in a giant block of ice, preventing it from touching any part of the cave. His guess was right--the Gymantiks, being made of marble, were able to regenerate by absorbing more marble from their island. Andrea finished off the wasp, using her coup de graces to preserve the division between the wasp and the walls of its prison (which she crafted by dividing a big hole in the ground and filling it with sea water).

(In the meantime, Bain and Peter's character, now an NPC, narrated getting the rescued villagers off the island. Peter's character went with them while Bain returned, still injured, to see if he couldn't help out)

When they found the little girl that had been crying, she stood and adressed them very authoritatively. "At last, you came," she said. "Some of you I expected, and some I did not, but it is a start."
They were, obviously, very confused. She told them her name was Calliope, and they didn't press it any further. She said that she had orchastrated the events that brought them all here (not the Gymantiks attack--just the events that brought them to deal with it). She told them that they had to prepare for a grave threat to all humanity. The gods were afraid of Death, true, and that bought them some time. But, like humanity at the dawn of the world, they would eventually come to terms with that fear and would be stronger because of it. Humanity had to be united and ready if they were to keep their newfound authority. She told them that a threat to the unity their Queen had established was forming on the islapolis of Morisawa, where the Red Dawn Rising was plotting to overthrow her.

Then the island collapsed. We narrated them trying to escape, but they couldn't do much. Remember how the Divine Stream felt funny to them when they approached the island? Now it was going positively crazy. They couldn's grasp it no matter how hard they tried, and they were pretty helpless as the island collapsed and they all got sucked down a whirlpool. They felt their shards slip away and the water fill their lungs, then all went black.

Skipping over a little narration, basically what happened was that they woke on a beach and discovered that all their shards had been switched. Andrea's character now controlled Stones and Swords, Brandon's Seas and Divisions, and Bain's Frost and Wolves. I did this for two reasons: 1) they had been complaining that, after a month of playing with the same shard, they were running low on ideas for what to do with it*. This way, they can watch as other people take a go at their Dominions. 2) The event was orchastrated by that 'little girl'. She'll return their shards to their proper owners in time, but first she wants to remind them that they are not gods--they are humans. Their power is not theirs, it is borrowed, it can be taken away. She wants them to remember not to define themselves by what shards they have, but by who they are.
I didn't tell the players that, but one or two of them have kind of figured it out, I think.

The rest of the game was spent narrating their return to Myrrh and their journey to Morisawa. At Myrrh, the people wanted to throw a celebration, but Bain was insistent they deal with the threat to the Queen. They let the islanders praise them for a single night, then wrapped up their loose ends and left in the morning. Brandon spoke with the exceedingly grateful father of the son he went to rescue, and got the information as promised. Andrea did really well roleplaying her character's reaction to loosing her shard: for one thing, her character had a fear of drowning and now no defense against it. For another, she had definetly seen her shard as a part of who she was, and showed her character shaken by her loss.

At Morisawa, they weren't really sure what to do. It was a larger islapolis with several cities; they picked one and started asking around to find more information. I forgot to mention (to you, the reader, not to them)-- the Red Dawn was a group of Amalga loyal to the Queen and the League. So far, they were the only known group of Amalga in the decade or so that Amalga have existed, so they are very famous. They've "saved" many islapoli from the Ondron Commonwealth. One member is an Admiral (Navarkhos) of the league, and another is a niece of one of the Queen's Councilmen. So, very influential people.
So, they ask around but don't find much. There's a rumor that there's a new addition to the group. They learn that nobody really knows when they come or go.
So, they decide for the direct approach. Bain and Andrea's characters dress in all their best military finery and head straight for the command headquarters of the Navarkhos, Memero Phosphes. Aaaaand.... to be continued.


Like I said, not too much for discussion, here. I think we may need to address the way we handle rules disputes in the future... but it probably won't happen. These disputes don't happen too often. I've posted this mainly so that, in future sessions that I may need discussion, people have a record to know what's going on. Any questions or comments, though, are always welcome, should anyone have any.

Thanks,
John







*I should note, here, that this will hopefulyl not be an issue in a normal game once DH is finished. Characters should get a new shard after a good month of steady gaming. However, we've gone through so many changes about how the process is done and what actually happens, that I've held off letting them get new shards just yet.

[TonyLB]

Hey John, do you feel that the whole "Little girl is in charge" plot thread fits in with your Power 19 about the players being the ones who make the big decisions about their socity?  'cuz I'm having a hard time reconciling the two.  Can you clarify?

[Sovem]

Hmmm... well, I'm pretty sure my players never check here, so I guess I can go ahead and reveal the plot...

The little girl comes from an idea my wife had. When the Spiritual realm started flooding into the Physical and being absorbed, many physical things began to become more spiritual. There are (as-yet unnamed) spirits of different physical things, like your classic driads or nereids, etc. These spirits are interested in the wellbeing of whatever they are the spirit of, but they don't have a whole great deal of power to influence things to their betterment. Small powers of the elemental sort.

Well, this little girl is one of the Seven Spirits of Humanity. As such, she "knows certain things," but she doesn't have that much power to influence events. She made little minor changes--had the officer Bain's character had reported to (when he went to rejoin the League military) suggest that he should go help with the Gymantiks. Likewise, she made sure that the little boy's father was able to get a message to Brandon's character as speedily as possible. These sorts of influences. Reshuffling the character's shards around... well, they went into Torrent, so they would have got their shards back, anyway. She just pushed the shards back in opposite directions. That was a little gamemaster fiat for reasons I explained previously.

If you do a quick search on "Calliope," you'll see that's the name of one of the muses of Greek mythology. I'm basically using her as a "muse" to the character's epic. She's offering some directions they could go--now, when they get there, they could choose to stop the Red Dawn and save the Queen. They could talk with them and decide that the Ondron's way of unity is preferable over the League's (that's the story the Red Dawn are using, because an Ondron Amalga is helping them out in their coup). Or, they could push deeper to find out that the Queen is involved in some pretty deceitful stuff, and decide to help take her out for the betterment of the League (which is what the Red Dawn are really planning; double crossing Ondron to make them the scapegoats and glavanize the League against Ondron despite the loss of their very beloved Queen).

Does that explain things better? Calliope is not in charge, nor is she necessarily even wise in her advice. But I used her to give the characters a direction for their epic (for any of the above three options will certainly be epic) and used her as an excuse to switch their shards around for reasons already stated. I could have just said their shards got confused because of the Nexus, but I kind of wanted an excuse to put their shards back in order, and she gives me an excuse to do that, too.

Does that make more sense?

[TonyLB]

I pretty much figured that you had some sort of huge plot behind the little girl, which justified why she could do all the things that she could do, and which further justified your belief that she wasn't bossing the players and their characters around.

Do you see how much your in-game justification for an out-of-game problem really does not matter?

The players have to have their characters do what the little girl tells them to.  Why?  Because you haven't got anything else prepared.  The fact that she doesn't dictate every single action is beside the point:  She tells them what arena they have to act in.  In all seriousness ... can you imagine Conan or Elric or the Grey Mouser taking that kind of direction from anyone, much less a small girl?

Is being able, as the GM, to do this to your players consistent with your Power 19?

[Sovem]

You're probably right. Two things here:

1) The world is still evolving from a design standpoint now, so any ability to "change the world" is a little flimsy when thrown at a world that's still very much a cardboard set. Or, rather, it's the world that's flimsy. It's still being defined, so things that, in a normal game, might be like "let's try to change X" are instead "X is a cool idea... let's make X a part of our world, so that future players can change it."

2) I don't know what else to do! (This is a cry for help, not an exclamatory defense). My experience in roleplaying, while spanning many years, is very narrow. It's pretty much just been White Wolf, WotC, and a little smattering of smaller--but still mainstream--games. It hasn't been until recently that I even heard of indie rpgs or found amazing games that broke stereotypes and did cool things. You say that they have to do what I have planned...because I have nothing else planned. Pretty much, yeah. In a game with a GM and a bunch of players, how else can you play? I'm asking, seriously, because it sounds like you either have a good idea or know of games that I don't.

[TonyLB]

You say that they have to do what I have planned...because I have nothing else planned. Pretty much, yeah. In a game with a GM and a bunch of players, how else can you play? I'm asking, seriously, because it sounds like you either have a good idea or know of games that I don't.

Okay ... the easiest advice would be to point you to a bunch of games and say "Play these!" because the rules systems will give you first-hand experience with the patterns.  If you want me to do that, I'll do that in addition, but I'm gonna try to give you something to take straight into your own play/thought.  If I fail ... well, there's always the games themselves.

Your interest is to make sure that the players do something really, really interesting.  That's everyone's interest, really, because nobody wants to be bored.  But you feel particularly obligated to help make it happen.

One way to do that is to figure out an interesting thing, and then jolly the players into doing that.  You've got experience with that model, and it works.

Another way to do that is to create a situation such that anything the players do is interesting.  It takes a different mindset to prepare a situation in that way, but it also works.

The basic trick to it (to my way of thinking) is to make sure that if the players refuse to have their characters do anything then their inaction itself is cool and fascinating.  One way to handle this is to concentrate your preparation on NPCs who want the PCs to do something for them that the PCs are not obviously inclined to do.  As a for-instance ... imagine the characters are samurai following an elderly and increasingly senile lord:  the Lord wants them to execute his brave young son, because the son is distinguishing himself in battle, and the Lord (in his crazed state) believes that his son will lead a rebellion against him.

If the players do nothing then they're disobeying their lord.  Interesting!  If they kill the son then they're destabilizing the family and weakening their house in the face of their enemies.  Interesting!  If they fake the son's death then they're doing both!  Interesting!

The absolute key to this is to give the characters the power to at least have a sporting chance to make their decisions right, rather than just punishing them with an infinite variety of wrong answers.  There are no easy answers, but there are also no wrong answers.  There are only a wide variety of hard, right answers.  If the samurai kill the young son then somehow, some time, the loyalty that they've shown should give them a chance to achieve their goals (whatever those are).  If they betray their lord then their initiative in saving the son, and their willingness to sacrifice even their duty, honor and fealty in order to help their clan should give them a chance to achieve their goals (whatever those are).

Sure, the samurai's goal may end up being "Live with honor, die with dignity," and they may achieve that by being cut down at their crazed Lord's side in a battle sung of in legends.  Or their goal may be "Protect the clan, no matter the cost," and they may achieve that by watching their clan battle to victory, after themselves being exiled and forced into the life of a masterless ronin.  But they should be able to achieve their goals, whatever method they choose. 

After all, if all paths are interesting it's not as if you have any motivation to punish the players for choosing an interesting choice, right?

Does that help you out at all?

[Sovem]

Dang, I'm really trying to get this, but I'm just not. I'm starting to get a little experience with more non-traditional games; I bought Universalis, and I checked out the link in your sig and read a bunch about Capes (looks awesome!)--but we're not looking to make anything that revolutionary.

Regarding your example, I'm not really sure I get it. What's the difference between "spirit girl offers plothooks" and "samurais' lord offers plothooks"? Of course, the players could have chosen to ignore it, or at least focus their investigations on the girl, instead of the Red Dawn. But they didn't. Part of this is because my players have a tendency towards a "let's just get with the game" mindset. Peter observed how, when all the characters first met, they pretty much just went along with each other because "they look like PCs". This is true. IOW, when they see a plothook, they usually bite.
But they often also play characters with moral conscience, such that if the samurai lord made that order, they'd refuse (or do the faking death thing), so they're not just going to do whatever an NPC tells them.

I think that this issue you've raised is a good example of why we're trying to perfect this "Passion - Destiny" mechanic. One idea that's been put forth is that every Player come up with a destiny they'd like to see their character meet, then work together to create a destiny for the group. This would give them goals and also give everyone at the table an influence in the direction of the epic.
Might this be something like what you're recommending?

[TonyLB]

Dang, I'm really trying to get this, but I'm just not. I'm starting to get a little experience with more non-traditional games; I bought Universalis, and I checked out the link in your sig and read a bunch about Capes (looks awesome!)--but we're not looking to make anything that revolutionary.

Dogs in the Vineyard is the one that I've lifted this particular notion from, if you want to take a gander.

Of course, the players could have chosen to ignore it, or at least focus their investigations on the girl, instead of the Red Dawn.

And if they had done this thing, would it have been just as interesting and important as if they'd done what she told them to? 

Here's what I project onto this story, rightly or wrongly.  I apologize for casting you into a type ... I try not to do it, but I've seen this type of thing so many times that I've been trained into a prejudice.

Anyway, here's what I've seen:  The spirit girl is a hook to get them connected to the Red Dawn plot.  If they go and do the Red Dawn plot then the spirit girl has succeeded.  Yay!  If they ignore the spirit girl, nothing ever comes of that.  Maybe the GM just has the Red Dawn come after them, forcing them into the Red Dawn plot anyway (after all, they've been contacted by the spirit girl!  They must be enemies!)  Or maybe the GM says "Ah well, they don't want to do the Red Dawn plot.  I guess I'll make up that story I was thinking about concerning how the nature spirits are faring in this new world."  Yes, that latter one means that they're seeing a different plot than they would if they'd followed the spirit girl, but they're not seeing a plot that is a consequence of their actions.  The only thing they've chosen is not to engage with the Red Dawn plot.

In fact, I am hard pressed to see what kind of interesting outcome possibly could be the consequence of ignoring the spirit girl.  The Red Dawn attacks the Queen?  That's not something the players made happen, it's just something they didn't prevent.

Does that make the distinction I see between the spirit girl and the crazed daimyo any clearer to you?

[Sovem]

:(

I'm sorry, I'm just not getting it! >.<
Ok, instead of going round and round on this, why don't you try to explain what, specifically, was in the Power 19 that you felt I wasn't representing very well in the playtest, and maybe we can go from that angle?

[TonyLB]

Divinity Horizons is a game where the PCs are expected to change their world.