Dice Pool Definition

[Paganini]

In another thread, Ron is using a definition of "dice pool" that I found a little confusing, in that he includes Tunnels & Trolls and Star Wars D6. As far as I can tell, when Ron says "dice pool" he means any system where the characters' abilities determine the number / type of dice to roll, as opposed to a system where the characters' abilities determine a target number or are added to a roll. (Ron, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I'm wondering if this is a common definition of dice pool, and also about specific game instances. Would the Window be a dice pool? Would Fable? What about Sovereign Stone?

On the face of it, a dice pool could mean "any mechanic in which multiple dice are rolled." OTOH, I've always seen it used to mean a system in which multiple dice are rolled in *paralell.* That is, the dice are not added, but each counted separately, like Risk, WoD, D6 Legend, and so on. I personlay would not call Sovereign Stone a dice pool system, but neither would I call Star Wars D6 a dice pool system, since both seem to be quite similar, in that you roll dice and add them, with the number and/or size being determined by your character's abilities.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Nathan,

I'm not sure where your conundrum lies. No, The Window does not use a dice pool. One rolls one die to resolve a conflict, always. The die varies by size, not by number of dice.

I suggest that the "way you've seen the term used" actually reflects confusions and variations regarding the term, not any one already-defined way. Basically, people use the term "dice pool" uncritically. I'm trying to be more rigorous about it.

I'm not familiar with the systems of either Sovereign Stone or Fable, though. Can you describe them here?

You are being too inclusive with your "multiple-dice" definition. TFT, Champions, and GURPS all use a 3-dice rolling system - but those three dice are almost always fixed. You roll three dice in Champs exactly in the sense that you roll one die in AD&D. The question is not one vs. many, but a fixed number vs. a variable number.

I recognize your distinction between parallel vs. additive systems. That seems to me to be a separate variable. For instance, using my terms, Elfs' system is not a dice pool, as one always rolls 3d10. However, it is a parallel system, not additive.

Best,
Ron

P.S. One interesting variant on a dice pool, as I've defined it, is in The Dying Earth, in which, functionally, one is rolling a dice pool sequentially, one by one, during a single conflict resolution.

[Paganini]

I'm not familiar with the systems of either Sovereign Stone or Fable, though. Can you describe them here?

You bet. Sovereign Stone (now uses the d20 system) is actually a trilogy in progress (first two novels are done) by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman based on a series of paintings by Larry Elmore. The first novel was released in tandem with the Sovereign Stone role-playing game. The original system was far enough along that it had two sourcebooks and a GM screen - as well as some web released adventures and sample characters - before it was switched to d20. I have all of the original material... it's a very fine system IMO, and ditching it for d20 was a crying shame.

The guts of the system resemble the Window superficially, in that attributes and skills are rated with dice. When your character attempts an action he chooses an attribute and a skill (or is told which to use by the GM), then rolls and adds the two dice, the goal being to beat a GM set difficulty number. If the character has no skill, he uses the attribute alone. Frex, a character might roll Agility d10 + Martial Arts d12 during a combat scene. However, you aren't limited to only rolling two dice. You may exert to get additional dice by taking stun damage (representing extra physical or mental effort put into the action.) IIRC you only ever get a single exertion die, the size of which is determined by the number of stun points you take. So, for any given action, you may roll anywhere from 1 to 3 dice of varying sizes determined by your attributes, skills, and effort.

Fable is a homebrew game by Ben Sonnes available for free download. It's a bit like the Window, but more fully realized, IMO. I greatly prefer it to the Window, and encourage anyone who likes the Window to check it out. It has some elements that I don't care for (a karma system that's hidden from the players) but on the whole I really like it.

I recognize your distinction between parallel vs. additive systems. That seems to me to be a separate variable. For instance, using my terms, Elfs' system is not a dice pool, as one always rolls 3d10. However, it is a parallel system, not additive.

Ah, I get you now. So, just to be sure, your definition of dice pool is "a system in which the number of dice you roll varies depending on ability?"

In that case, I guess Sovereign Stone *is* a dice pool system, on a very limited scale.

Hey, could you give me a description of the Elfs 3d10 mechanic, or point me to a post that does? I'm not familiar with the system.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Nathan,

As for Sovereign Stone, it sounds "fixed" to me, with the additional "effort" die being an add-in which is, also, fixed. I think your term "limited dice pool" isn't far off though.

Here's some relevant text from Elfs:
"All resolution in ELFS is really easy. Roll 3d10 and the number of dice that come up at or below your target value, that's the number of successes (0, 1, 2, or 3). All problems or tasks are rated by the GM according to how many successes they require to perform
them.

"It doesn't matter which of the three dice that are rolled come up with what values. All that matters is whether one or more are equal to or less than the target value. The target value is the character's Spunk. This value might be increased either by Low Cunning or Dumb Luck (see below)."

See? Fixed number of dice, but they're read in parallel. So by my definition, it's not a dice pool. By some folks' usage, they'd call it a dice pool with a fixed number of dice, which strikes me as very odd.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Make sure to enter Fable and its URL into the Forge Resource Library!! (Everyone oughta be doing this, puttin' in creator-owned games they know about or run across, all the time ... everyone knows this, right? .... Right?)

[efindel]

Joining the thread a bit late...

A long time ago on rec.games.frp.misc, there was a long argument about what does and doesn't constitute a dice pool.  My reading of it was that there were three major points of view:

1 - If the number of dice you roll to do something varies based on something about the character, it's a dice pool.

2 - If you have a certain number of dice to use, and either have to or have the option to divide them up among multiple things, that's a dice pool.

3 - If you roll dice and count them individually, that's a dice pool.

The definition Nathan started with is #3.  Star Wars d6 is a dice pool under #1 and #2 (at least, the original version is... I understand that second edition mucked with #2 a bit).  Shadowrun has dice pools under all three definitions, as does the original Storyteller system (don't know what changes they've made in later versions).  T&T's combat system is a dice pool under #1, and sort of under #2 (you're allocating points of the differences of the rolls, rather than actual dice, but it's a similar idea).

--Travis