the hard facts about art!!

[BillT]

Hello Artists, my name is Bill,

I am placing this topic here where I believe it will have the most relevance and impact.
I am a game dev and I have been monitoring the forge for some time now and I have yet to see what I am looking for but I still hold out hope. I have noticed that there are a lot of artists that post that they are professional illustrators (some with degrees) and want to get paid for their work and efforts. I can understand this opinion, most artists think their work merits money, but to be realistic here, I have been a game dev for almost 30 years and been employed by a brand name gaming corporation and I can tell you this. There are two things that sale a Role-playing game (which I will state later in this letter). And likewise, any green, or slightly new artist (meaning unknown) looking to break into the business needs to be top notch and willing to work freelance and on a pay-of-publish rite (meaning that the artist gets paid if and when the role-playing game sells). Once the art has proven it's self as a bankable entity then the artist can set his demands and expect to get paid, anything less than this is a true pipe dream, and an adoration of reality.
1st is the cover art, if the art is sub par then the likelihood of a potential customer stopping and picking up your book to look at it, not for purchase, but to look at it drops by a margin of 85%, and that's if they even notice the book do to its inability to catch the eye. Art is the 1st seller and as human beings we tend to buy based on looks (if something looks cool, we buy) before we consider just how good a product is or what it contains inside.
2nd is easy of game play (playability) and the depth of the written words herein and the ability/interest level of the potential gamers attention span to be maintained by your baby that's in his/her hands (the potential buyer). The adage is, if the art and stories are good and the game mechanics are solid/original then you have a better than average chance that gamers will buy your game and continue to play the game indefinitely. True logistics state that a game with solid/original content and art is bound to sell, the question becomes how well. But it all starts with the art, and how good the art is. Here's some food for thought, and it holds true, that if it looks bad then it is bad, that's just plain old-fashioned human nature at work.
So if you combine the basics here of what I have stated (and I could go into more detail and talk about publishing-distribution/warehousing/advertising/and so on) and have great art, not sub par art and solid/original content then you have a 40% greater chance of being successful verses what I have seen thus far on the Forge for the most part. But to my predictable horror there are a number of game dev's that seem to feel that the art offered on the forge (save a select few) think that it 's "fantastic" but in truth are campy/childlike/cartoonist attempts and of extremely poor quality, unworthy of serious consideration. But everyone is entitled to their opinion and this happens to be mine, with the exception that mine are backed up by logistics and fact and 30 years of gaming experience of what works and what doesn't. If you happen to be producing a game for non-profit then my point is mute, but if you have plans to sell your creative endeavors then I would think twice about what you consider great or fantastic with regard to art, do some research. Great art can help sell your game, poor art can kill it irregardless of how great your game mechanics my be. And there and then your dream dies a crippling fast death, and gets shelved with the multitudes of other games that fail to become a success.
Take some advice from a "real" professional, when you as a game owner choose an artist, you need to base your decision upon a few streamlined themes. This list is by no means in any particular order but the points are true. The quality of the art has to be extremely hi in order for your game to compete with the likes of a Todd Lockwood or a Larry Elmore. Once again the reason that a game sells is based on its "look" first, then upon its content. With regard to content, be original and be congruent concerning your games subject matter and its flexibility. Because in the end what you should be looking to achieve is longevity when you produce something for retail. Have a detailed, logistically treated book/books with a solid business plan and research, research your publishers and make contacts by attending comic and game conventions to promote your intellectual works. And make sure that the publisher that you choose is responsible for marketing and advertising and that you retain control of your intellectual property and hold the right to all your works including the art, and have all your marks, trademarks and copyrights in place before approaching any publisher.
This letter is not an attempt to bash or defame the artists on the Forge; it is a realistic observation though based in fact, a fact that can be brutal if you're not prepared to hear it. If you think your art is good, make it better, if you think its great, spend more time refining it, and if your told or think its fantastic then you have an ego problem and may never become a published artist. Take it from me; no one in the brutally cynical world of entertainment gaming will ever take you serious. I know, I was a paid consultant with the tedious job of evaluating the validity of some of the most prolific art ever used in the gaming multi-verse as we know it today, the dreaded role-playing game.
I came here looking for those diamonds in the rough, artists with the ability to become valued members of several innovative creation projects currently being considered by a veteran game development staff and myself and I am very disappointed by what's considerate "hi quality". But hopefully this letter will stir up a buzz and energize the base. Let it be known artists, if you didn't know already, which you should, that the future of gaming art is digital, based upon oil painting/paintings, so for any serious artists out there, learn to use the programs and learn to use oils, or stay in the dark, in obscurity.
Some people might see this as an attack or a rant, and for those of you that are closed mind, keep on keep'en on, but for those of you that can see out-side of the box, I am sure you have the foresight to look past the lead dust of all those furious pencils. If I want to read a comic I'll buy one, and I assure you that the public gaming world in general sees it the same way.
When you as the reader choose to respond to this letter I expect outrage and backlash, and I am willing to take on any questions or comments, save my own true identity which I reserve in order to protect my own public interests, I mean I have to pay the "Bill's right? Get it? What's in a name.....

P.S anyone that contacts me is free to rants and rave, I am ready.

P.S.S "art for the sake of art is not art"

"the ability to fly, is being able to throw your self at the ground and miss"

[Jennifer Rodgers]

I'm sorry, Bill, but I see no productive reason for your post and I'm trying to see one. All I see is you being rude to people who are already working very very hard. (Me included) Those of us doing this full-time are never satisfied, always working to hone our craft and we're always improving. (I'm sure I can say the same of many of the part-timers as well.) I disagree with you on many points, but I honestly can't see the value in debating you on each one. Everyone's certainly entitled to an opinion and I hate internet arguments, I really do.

I'm sorry that you've had no luck finding artists. Seems like you're looking for something very particular. If you don't see what you're looking for here, perhaps you can try other art sources? Let me know if you'd like links or art community suggestions.

All the best,
Jenn

[Jason Morningstar]

Hey Bill, welcome to the Forge!

I'm going to assume you are both sincere and in need of assistance. 

Designers here work with lots of artists for lots of reasons, and frequently our goals fall well outside the traditional distribution model you reference.  Your criticism is misplaced and counterproductive - if you are seriously looking for artists that meet your own quality standards, you should lay out exactly what you need and ask the community for references. 

[Ron Edwards]

Hello Bill,

Inviting people to respond with "rants and raves" is perhaps common and expected on the internet, but here, at this site, it's called being an asshole, and any such interactions are not permitted regardless of your invitation.

You seem to have missed the fact that the Forge is open to any artist posting in this forum. He or she can be brilliant, or absolutely the converse. There is no screening and there is no minimum standard. Anyone can post his or her contact information; it is up to the person who chooses to use that contact information whether the art is any good or not.

What I see in your post is that you came looking for artists. You found a bunch you don't want to work with. What is the proper response? Not to work with them. For whatever reason, you seem to think that this also calls for telling everyone else what to do. All right, I said, I'll see if this guy has any good advice to give.

When I dissect, in your post, the claims and points to be found among the provocations ("a 'real' professional" and similar), here's what I find:

Points I agree with but which aren't especially controversial (I can't imagine anyone disagreeing):

Art plays a crucial role in the first impressions and the marketability of one's game
The art chosen for an RPG text should be unified and designed specifically to enhance the game/reading experience
Success in RPG publishing should consider long-term presence, not merely initial appearance

The points of dubious and not-particularly relevant content:

Larry Elmore and Todd Lockwood set the bar for artistic quality
Cartoonish/childish/campy art is not marketable

The points which are flatly wrong and illustrate the poisonous noise which has built up in thirty years of the so-called "industry"

Artists should work for free in order to establish reputations ("working for a cut of the profits" = working for free)
RPG designers obliged to look for publishers outside themseves in order to see their work in print

In summary, you appear to consider yourself enlightening people with "ugly fact" that maybe they aren't ready to hear. But I see nothing of the sort. I see some obvious, well-known material, I see some uninteresting material, and I see some demonstrably incorrect material. I also see a remarkable misunderstanding of what the Forge is about (independent publishing).

There is one other fundamental error of thought in your post - you have scanned over artists posts in this forum, but you say nothing about the actual published games and the art they include. Looking over The Mountain Witch, The Shab Al-Hiri Roach, The Dictionary of Mu, Mortal Coil, and many other games published recently by Forge participants, I see some of the finest, most original design/art work ever published in role-playing history. I also see experimentation that carries a unique and marketable impact, as in Carry and Primitive. All of your advice presumes that the art you don't like in this forum is also the art which is being utilized in the games themselves - and I strongly suspect you have no idea about any of those games, their appearances, and the art in them. Which renders any advice you try to give ... meaningless.

To everyone else, if you are inclined to post in this thread, I suggest thinking twice. I suspect Bill will respond to all our posts with egotistically-driven defiance, in the mistaken impression that our posts are resentful, whiny, or insulted. If he can demonstrate otherwise, then great, and we can have a discussion here. If he can't, then any posts you add will be feeding a troll. So let's find out about that first.

Best, Ron

[David Artman]

To reinforce some of Jason's points, in no particular order:

* 90%+ of Forge designers self-publish via PDF or print-on-demand (POD). The needs and desires of distributors or major publishers are not relevant--one could argue that those very limitations are what some indie designers seek to avoid!

* More so, they usually begin their projects as labors of love and not to fill a market niche. Thus, profitability is not Priority One (unlike a publisher or distributor) and, thus, large up-front risks are not attractive or even on the radar of considerations. Thus, dropping large ducats on a name artist isn't worth it. In fact, MANY indie designers go straight to the public domain, for art, and never pay a dime. I say all this to point out that some designers just want to experience producing a project, and might even go so far as to *share* that experience with a budding artist, by commissioning low-price or even free artwork. Perhaps this is the "bad" art you have noticed in current publications? We call it sharing.

* That said, yes, it does occasionally happen that a less-than-stellar artist gets column inches in a book; and, yes, that artist can sometimes get a per-piece payment. Good for them; and if the designer is happy, good for him or her! Indie publishes are not under the yoke of Big Money Players, and so they can often be quite successful--proportionately--even with "childish" art and the low sales which such amateur efforts yield (by your argument).

* Then again, we indies are closer to the edge of innovation than any Big Player, and that makes us much like early RPGs... even those that now dominate the market. Do you recall some of the "art" in, oh, Deities & Demigods? The cover of just about EVERY D&D module in the 70s and 80s? Times and standards change, but if your opinions on the requisite nature of top-notch art were correct, then we'd not have this hobby today. Some people can look past the cover, past the color and gleam, and find a good product and new hobby. (Perhaps some artists can't, though, due to being worn out by the aesthetic concessions they have made for their profession and the predations of money-oriented publishers?)

* If you are actually seeking "rough diamonds" in this very Connections forum, then might I suggest you try a bit of honey before you hose down the place with vinegar? If I were an artist with any (perceived or actual) talent, you'd have just sent me packing. Or, more likely, made me quote you about 150% higher for my commissions, because I'd expect more of the same in the course of working for you. (I've done this more than once, with book- and web-design clients who came on like you have.) Or are you making this post as some sort of opening gambit so that, when you actually attempt to reach out to an artist here, you can negotiate from a position of power, having already exhibited your disdain for the quality that you claim is generally to be found here?

Just 2¢ (worth almost 2.125¢ at current market rates!) from...
David Artman

P.S. Could you explain how The Order of the Stick manages to sell? Is he using oils for his stick figures...?

[Ron Edwards]

Bit of cross-posting there. Let's consider my post to be the last one (i.e. put it after David's, in your mind), and as I say, think twice before engaging. Number of posts = attention, and I suspect the points we make and the more questions we ask, the more Bill will respond with defiance. My judgment is that we've probably exceeded the useful limit and are now merely providing attention, when we shouldn't.

Best, Ron

[BillT]

Hello Ron, David and Jennifer,

Let me first sate that I believe strongly in diversity and the concepts of indie-gaming, as it was my first avenue when I stepped upon the mean streets of gaming over three decades ago. Secondly, I know for a fact that, for the most part, that my post, however frank it was, was right on the money where traditional mainstream gaming is concerned I just didn't state it, I thought it was obvious, my apologies that you failed to understand me for the most part. So let me be clear here, whether we are talking about traditional mainstream gaming, or indie-gaming the statements I made are a reflection of the world of RPG's in general and based upon years of intense market research and my personal experiences to date. What I stated was a "heads up" to the authors of any intellectual production with regard to the art selection they may make for their endeavors. Other than content, art will have the single greatest impact upon the monetary result of any gaming venture that a game Dev formulates for public sell on the open market. The art of your project is a direct representation of you as a writer/developer and will follow you throughout the rest of your game developmental efforts and sells life, be it good or bad. So what I am saying is take your time and be picky when selecting the visual representations that will reflect your product, and do a lot of research.

Third, are the remarks I made about the artist on the Forge. In layman's terms, so that I am not to be misunderstood is that, and I must say it, the general quality of the art on the Forge is not that good, but that is my professional opinion, and I have dealt with this a lot over the years, it seems to be one of the worst controversies in gaming, and if you speak out in a negative manor then your perceived as being an "asshole", which is wrong, but every one is entitled to their opinion. But, if that opinion is contradictory then it's not received well by those people that are either unwilling or unable to see your point of view. To anyone that might have taken offense to the statements I made then let me put it to rest, I apologize. I know that art is a love that's in the blood of the artist; I am one, albeit a poor one, I know my shortcomings. I am an outspoken; tell it like I see it kind of person, with a lot of experience in gaming, that has a lot of "real world" advice to offer, whether it's valued or not. And I believe strongly in the value of open discourse and we can "agree to disagree" without name-calling.

Ron stated, "I suspect the points we make and the more questions we ask, the more Bill will respond with defiance". This cant be further from the truth. I encourage any healthy debate and I am exceedingly open to any discussions that have merit backed up with logic, and I am not here to argue, but I will debate any gaming issues based upon a respectful, barebones exchange of dialogue.

I will state that there is an art form for every endeavor, and I did not wish to single out any "one" artist or publisher, I made a general statement that covered a broad spectrum and I can see why it was seen as meaningless or misunderstood. And yes there are some good artists on the Forge; I never stated that they were all bad. There are how ever exceptions to the rule and there always will be like the example given by David, The Order of the Stick for one. And what I know of the games that Ron had mentioned like, The Mountain Witch, has its merits and I respect the work that Tim has done and it's eye-snagging art. The Shab Al-Hiri Roach, Jason has I nice little game, but I must be honest, the art doesn't work for me, but it does for him. The Dictionary of Mu has a great flavor to it; though distinctly barrowed it has shown promise. And to be honest I know very little about Mortal Coil, there are tons of games out there. The point here is that Ron assumes that I know nothing about indie-games but I do, like I stated before its where I started may years ago, this isn't me being defiant, its me stating my position when being judged.

I give credit where I see it's deserved, and I relent when I know I am wrong, but I also have my opinions and they shouldn't be benched because their edgy or a bit confrontational, its just my style and it works and its made me successful. I have always been a great evaluator and I great judge of character even when my own character is in question, so I will show character and relent.

I would like to close with a final observation and a few words. Since my post, I have received a tremendous amount of e-mails, all positive I might add, with many requests from what's the name of your company to how can I join or help you. And I must admit that I was a bit dismayed with the outpouring of support from the over 300 e-mails I received in one day. I was also shocked at the number of e-mails from members of the Forge that expressed their unwillingness to speak their minds on the Forge for fear of being ridiculed based upon opinions that might be contrary to popular opinion, you know anything about this Ron?
I am more than willing to work with anyone that needs it, but I won't sugar coat anything and I will always be willing to listen to someone else's point of view. So with that said, Ron? I am willing to meet on level ground and talk with you and anyone else as long as it's honest and constructive, because I know I can help even though I have an extremely busy schedule. Are you willing to work with, or deal with me Ron? Or will I be banned or ignored? If I am ignored I can accept it, if you ban me that's your choice and within your power. I prefer not to be banned or ignored, as I can be a great resource for the Forge community.

Best Wishes,

BillT,

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Bill,

As I suspected.

1. "I am being called an asshole because they disagree with what I say."

Whereas, actually, you're being agreed with - art is important, art is a key feature of design and marketing, and game designers need to choose carefully. What have you told us, an ugly truth we shun or disagree with? No - you've stated obvious knowledge, already well-known and well-applied.

2. "You can go ahead and ban me," et cetera.

The cry of the eternal victim. You're not banned. No one's ever been banned at the Forge.

3. "A bunch of other people agree with me that you (Ron) are a mean guy!"

Good for them, and for you. Perhaps you can all have a t-shirt made.

If, as you say, your goal is to provide insight and experience here at the Forge, you're certainly welcome to do so. I'll look forward to it. "You need good art!" isn't much of a first try. I do appreciate the improved presentation in your second post, grammar and so on.

Best, Ron

[BillT]

Ron,

"As I suspected" I get the reference, you think I am being what you thought I was, how shallow of you.

I never said, "You can go ahead and ban me," this is just one of many of your attempts over the course of my 2 posts here at twisting what I said. If you are going to quote me you could have at least gotten it right.

I do not see myself as a victim; those are your words, for lack of better ones, another canned response, and unwarranted.

"A bunch of other people agree with me that you (Ron) are a mean guy!" nice grammar, but I never said that, I only relayed the truth, I though you might care about some of the people on your sight, I have been set straight, thank you.

I just got the t-shirts made, thanks for the idea.

I think that it is egocentric and self centered for you to think you know me deeply, even though we have met, you didn't act like this in person, actually we have met several times. I have a lot of insight and experience to offer but you don't know when to stop with the insults, when I just extended my hand to you. This is even after you personally referred to my post as and I quote" Inviting people to respond with "rants and raves" is perhaps common and expected on the internet, but here, at this site, it's called being an asshole, and any such interactions are not permitted regardless of your invitation". I guess you didn't understand that that means opening the floor for discussion; it's an expression Ron, nothing more. And I didn't use the word "asshole" until you did, and I used it in reference to your statement listed above. But you continue to twist my words.

I have great art. Always looking....

I am not sure why you are so threatened; and feel the need to twist what someone says and continue to insult them. I guess a website and a game called Sorcerer gives you that power? well and other gunk games you have worked on. Maybe next year you can afford a trip to Berlin without struggling to do so.

A parting bit of advice, I have been at this a lot longer than you have Ron, and I have seen you're past works and you're the last person with the ability to question my grammar. Oh, and the next time we meet, I think you will be startled at who you insulted, whether you care or not is to be seen.

So finish me off with an insult, you seem to be skilled at it....

Regretfully, Thee Ole'Dev

P. S. to your delight, I wont be posting on the Forge again.

P.S.S. to the members of the Forge that might care to hear it, this guy is not what he appears to be....

[Ron Edwards]

... guys? I think that must have been Sacha Baron Cohen in a new persona ...

Best, Ron

[rafial]

BillT: Cultural Learnings of Forge for make benefit glorious publisher of RPGs!

Artists! Is sexytime!

[Jon H]

Throw the artist down the well
so my art budget can be free...

[David Artman]

Uh... what happened here? 30 years experience is offered, informed by some seemingly off-base perspectives about indie agendas. Offended but just-short-of-rude community response (I, at least, took a good deal of care trying to shape or clarify the points, though I am usually more inclined to hit back--as many of you may recall, Ron in particular). And then a volley of vitriol (influenced by past interactions?) and an immediate retraction and departure?

I though that I didn't understand the point of Post #1... and now I *really* don't understand Post The Last (#3). Did we kill a goose that wanted to lay golden eggs for us? Or did we fend off someone whose motive and mien are the antithesis of what we do here WRT our hobby? Both?

???
David

[greyorm]

Uh... what happened here? Did we kill a goose that wanted to lay golden eggs for us?

Unh, David...*ahem* don't be so gullible. Your reaction is quite likely exactly what this guy was hoping for. Seriously, don't panic, and just read his posts with a critical eye. What you are seeing are the tactics of either your typical internet troll, or a badly damaged human being:

Claiming to have deep and extensive experience in a certain field, but not willing to state your name or credentials because you have to protect a "secret identity", and making other claims that rely on similarly unprovable or bandwagon arguments (300 supportive e-mails, an unspecified number of nameless posters "scared" to post to the Forge, etc) is a neon-sign that something is wrong.

You should also note the passive-aggressive threats and exhortations to the moderators and community: such as the statements challenging the moderators, etc. to prove their decency by not banning or ignoring him, the repeated suggestions that he's a good guy, and the subtlely expressed attitude that he will only share his knowledge with the community if he gets his way in the conversation and is recognized and praised. All implied threats.

Also note the various subtle shifts in his position to look like he was saying something other than what he originally said, plus the dodges and reactionary responses. I'm really fond of his statement about never having said "go ahead and ban me", when you can find him stating that in his post (in fact, he talks about being banned multiple times through his post, hinting that the moderators shouldn't do that -- here's another: "I also have my opinions and they shouldn't be benched because their edgy" -- all passive-aggressive challenges to the moderators about being banned or ignored for 'telling it like it is' or whatever).

For a guy that "encourages healthy debate" and "is a great judge of character" and is "always be willing to listen to someone else's point of view" he didn't take some pretty mild criticism of his posting behavior or debate too well at all. He claims also to "relent when he knows he is wrong" though his posts fairly conclusively prove otherwise, showcasing a very different personality.

There's a lot of manipulative social stuff happening just below the surface in all three posts he made. (Or maybe not so below the surface at all if you've studied interpersonal communication in college or elsewhere.)

Finally, the spelling and grammar of this individual should be a dead giveaway about the truth of the individual's claim regarding his experience in the gaming industry. If you spend thirty years as a professional in an industry that requires writing and reading as much as our hobby does, you do not have the the spelling and grammar of a 13-year old grade schooler. That's pretty much the litmus test right there.

So, if he was what he said he was -- and given this is the internet, and the classic shit-stirring, attention-whoring, scare-mongering behaviors displayed, I'm leaning strongly towards "troll" -- but if he was, we would not want him around here. We don't want anyone like that around here, regardless of experience, because you would quickly find their behavior would be disruptive and unproductive for the community.

As a reference for future posters, here's what you want to do:

• Actions speak louder than words or claims (or beliefs, particularly about who you think you are or how you act).
• Don't assume you should just be respected or walk in here with entitlement issues. Nobody here owes you anything, yet.
• Learn to deal positively with criticism, whether it is constructive, unconstructive, or destructive.
• And most importantly, the number one way to avoid being a goon on the internet: just participate. Prove you are what you are.

[greyorm]

Crap, that was supposed to be "preview", not "post". Ah, me.
Hopefully, you get what I mean and it's not too 2:30am-incoherent. (*stupid inability to edit posts*)