Freeform

[Mike Holmes]

Right, Fang, that's a good example of a TT reward. But in a Freeform, what do you use as a reward? There are no dice or tokens in FFs. So what would you give?

Mike

[Walt Freitag]

Let me add one cautionary comment about positive reinforcement: long-term prizes can backfire. If someone struggling with social contract issues gets in the mindset of "guess I'm out of the running for the prize," it can become a self-reinforcing "... so I might was well just have fun [go berserk; ruin everyone else's]."

I second Fang's instant rewards, but let me add that the most effective reward might be completely intangible and completely outside the game. Such as simple statements (via IM, if necessary) like, "Hey, that rocked."

Um, take a real close look sometime at how Ron (and some others, but mostly Ron) respond to Forge newcomers who need some help with the local culture. I've seen it become a rather intricate dance with subtle positive and negative reinforcement (often ostensibly directed at other parties) on a very fine scale.

- Walt

[Le Joueur]

Right, Fang, that's a good example of a TT reward. But in a Freeform, what do you use as a reward? There are no dice or tokens in FFs. So what would you give?

The simple answer is something that has value to the players (preferably something of use in the game).  This would obviously vary from game to game.  (I remember once how thrilled a co-worker I had was to have been awarded minor moderator status in a MUSH he was in, but I'm not really an afficianado of Freeforms, so I cannot say.)

Depending on how the whole worked or if any tracking could be managed without huge headaches, how about something like 'kudoes?'  If someone gives you a 'kudo' you get the 'right of way' in a scene when you 'spend' it later.  I'm not really that versed in Freeforms to really be of much use here, I was just magnifying Mike's point from earlier.

Fang Langford

[Mike Holmes]

Depending on how the whole worked or if any tracking could be managed without huge headaches, how about something like 'kudoes?'  If someone gives you a 'kudo' you get the 'right of way' in a scene when you 'spend' it later.  

That's a pretty cool idea, IMO. Essentially players rewarding players by giving them the right to do something which is forbidden by the rules such as affect another PCs scene. That might work.


I think we're getting more of an idea of the range of possibilities in Freeform in general, though I think we may be getting off on tangents. Does anyone else have an area of possible differentiation of types of Freeforms?

One question that I do have is that someone mentioned that they believed that Gamist FFs were possible. This I'm having a hard time imagining. Without any mechanical bars to set, and without players set as objective referee's I'm having trouble seeing where the player can strive in a Gamist fashion. Can anyone explain that?

Mike

[Evan Waters]

One question that I do have is that someone mentioned that they believed that Gamist FFs were possible. This I'm having a hard time imagining. Without any mechanical bars to set, and without players set as objective referee's I'm having trouble seeing where the player can strive in a Gamist fashion. Can anyone explain that?

Good question. I think there are some ways in which it is possible- if the character is given a goal that is achieved through RPing, character interaction, problem solving, etc., the player could work towards it without invoking mechanics. An example might be RPing a company executive planning a hostile takeover or trying to negotiate an important contract. Or, maybe if you put a PC in a room where he has to solve a puzzle to get out, the GM can give the player a drawing of the puzzle, or say a riddle and make the player guess, or something else that involves working out an answer to a problem without resorting to mechanics.

[Mike Holmes]

Good question. I think there are some ways in which it is possible- if the character is given a goal that is achieved through RPing, character interaction, problem solving, etc., the player could work towards it without invoking mechanics. An example might be RPing a company executive planning a hostile takeover or trying to negotiate an important contract. Or, maybe if you put a PC in a room where he has to solve a puzzle to get out, the GM can give the player a drawing of the puzzle, or say a riddle and make the player guess, or something else that involves working out an answer to a problem without resorting to mechanics.

I can see in a game with a typical GM/Player power split how this could happen, and that's probably what was being referred to with the original FF Gamist reference. The problem I was having was with the idea of players with lots of Directory power as in the sort of Freeform where there is no GM or the GM serves only as mediator, and creates little or nothing himself. In that case, the player can simply say, "I succeed at my hostile takeover." Where's the challenge in that?

This does bring up the question of power splits in FF games. Can anyone with a lot of experience relate what percentage of FFs play GMless or GM as mediator only vs with a normal power split? Also. I'm assuming that what makes it a freeform in that case is the lack of mechanics by which the GM mediates? Otherwise, if you have a GM and rules, how is that Freeform anymore?

Mike

[Blake Hutchins]

At the risk of (a) making myself look like a liar when I described myself recently as "not a designer" and (b) giving folks a look at a rules set that desperately needed polish, here's a link to a set of Freeform (online -- BB-oriented) RP rules I put out for the Tribes Roleplayers during my time on the Tribes 2 project.

Here's the link: TRP rules

You'll likely have to go to the Downloads link and grab the rules from there.

Best,

Blake

[Mike Holmes]

Blake's game has me really thinking.

This really messes with the definition of Freeform. There are distinct resolution rules in there, and mechanics. They are all Drama based, but by that definition, Amber falls under the Freeform definition. But when you look at it, all Freeforms have a "resolution mechanic" just one that is often left unstated or a simple line about how to use appropriate Drama when resolving what occurs. In the case of Blake's game, you have a looong essay on exactly how to use the game mechanics including a point based CharGen with a Trait and Skill system to adjudicate exactly what is appropriate from a Drama standpoint. But it's still all Drama.

There are differences, however. Many Freeforms will not have the "mechanical" details that Blake's game has. I think that may be key. I have a strong desire to say to Blake, "Hey, that's too organized to call Freeform."

What do other people think?

(BTW, Blake, I like it a lot, and I might even try and join up when I'm not so busy. )

Mike

[Lance D. Allen]

Just out of curiosity, but did you see my post prior to Fang's, Mike? You asked what could be used as positive reinforcement in FFRP, when I gave several examples.

Anyhow, I can give an example of something that might be considered Gamist in FFRP. For a while, in LT, we had a forum-wide SL (Storyline) going on where shards of a mystical artifact, said to be able to grant life or immortality had to be found, then assembled. Shard organized this by having everyone contact him privately and sign up for "Good or Evil", either with active character, or one made for the purpose of the SL. We were allowed to cooperate both in writing the SLs, roleplaying the pertinent scenes, and working out the answers to the questions.

What questions? Here's where it gets borderline gamist. We were given lists of questions which, in some twisted way, all related to where one of the shards were. Whoever found all of the answers first got a few more questions, and whoever was the first to answer those got to have their team find the shard. Finding the answers to the questions could mean looking up obscure facts online, or answering off-the wall trivia. (What is {some chemical compound}? It turns out to be a Freon substitute, which ends up relating to Freon, the Cryomantic Archmage, who resided in N. Oceanuus, and who had possession of the shard.)

From there, usually the actual finding of the shard was roleplayed, and there could be a variety of things happen in the RP'd scene, esp. considering that multiple characters were involved. Some good stories came out of that contest...

Anyhow, I don't know if this exactly counts, but it was definitely a game, and one we were all trying REALLY hard to win. In the end, we all lost, but... that's only 'cause Shardie's a twisted bastard.

[Blake Hutchins]

Thanks, Mike.

Fair warning: the TRP community isn't doing much RP these days.  I haven't been available to provide help and inspiration, and Sierra seems to be taking Tribes farther from a story-based setting, from what I can see on the computer gaming news lists.  Consequently, most interaction over there is social, but not game-oriented.

In practice, players used the chargen rules quite a bit, but not the attribute activation rules.  There was some discussion of granularity, but not a lot of use of Grunts or Shadows to provide supporting cast for Hero stories.

Best,

Blake

[Matt Machell]

Okay, I came to this discussion quite late, but there was a call for people with experience of Freeforms, so I'll give my 2 cents.

I ran, and played in, lots of freeform games for the Sci-fi society when I was at university. Most of those were for between 30 and 50 people, and ran with GM control of everything bar social interaction and allowed actions(ie if somebody didn't mind something happening to them, it happened, if their brief said they could do it, it happened). If there was disagreement, the GM chose the result that made the plot more interesting.

The key part of these freeforms were general and character briefs. When designing a starting scenario, I would create what was essentially a relationship map of characters, who knew information about each other and had particular aims. (Most of these freeforms were based around clue building, to achieve a goal). Where you fitted into the web of conflict was dictated by a player brief, but how you played your character was up to you. The contract of play was built into the general brief, which set up the scenario and what most people could or couldn't do, and what was expected during play. Generally the scenarios were set up in such a way as to avoid too many GM calls being necessary.

From a GNS point of view, these games relied mostly on Narativist and Gamist decisions. Gamist, because often characters would be swapping information, in order to gain better information, with which to achieve their stated goals, and thereby win. Narativist, because if a conflict between individuals came up, whatever decision was made (whether by player or GM) was usually in favour of a more interesting story.



Matt

[Shard]

Mike wrote:

Can anyone else come up with other positive reinforcers? In TT this usually takes the form of the GM doling out some effectiveness reward (EXP, frex). What can be done in Freeform?

Ya know.  ::smiles::  I completely forgot to delve into the positive side.  Lance mentioned one method, here are a few others we have used over the years.

1. Straight up Encouragement: The forum created a message board folder where people could discuss stories they wrote.  In this folder anyone could request a story to be reviewed and in some cases people would just give reviews.  The main rule was all reviews had to be constructive.  I think this gave some great pointers to fledgling writers and gave them positive reinforcement on the writing aspect of online Free Form.  Additionally there is a message board folder where you can simply give "props" to good RPing you might have seen.  This is the most direct approach of positive peer reienforcement.

2. A contest: We had a writing contest judged by forum leaders in other Free Form Forums.  The winners won Amazon.com gift certificates.  We only recieved three contestants but it was a good start.  Incidentally we gave a gift certificate to all three contestants.  They were VERY surprised.

3. Storyline Direction:  Typically RPers who exhibit exceptional role-playing and who are "leaders" within the forum are recognized with the opportunity to take over the roles of key NPC's within the setting.  In some ways this is a sign of status, however I think it just gives people a great opportunity to expand their RPing and writing skills.  Additionally players who exhibited the highest Social contract skills also were the players who lead forum wide storylines with world spanning effects.  People followed and took part in their storylines because of their willingness to show thier leadership qualities within the forum.  This was encouraged by everyone.

Just a few kinds of ways that encouraged the positive side of Free Form gaming and "fitting  in" with the social contracts of the forum.


Mike also writes:

There are differences, however. Many Freeforms will not have the "mechanical" details that Blake's game has. I think that may be key. I have a strong desire to say to Blake, "Hey, that's too organized to call Freeform."

What do other people think?

I think you hit it right on the head.  Free Form eventually hits a very important line in the sand on both sides.

Organization vs. Open Ended

Too much of either and it starts to stray from Free Form.  Not enough rules or background setting and you get a chaotic mess.  Too much organization and background information and you step past free form and into something that borders on classic table-top roleplaying.

Toeing this line is a daily endeavor within online Free form communities and it sometimes takes stepping back a bit as a community and reassessing where you are going.  When people start to debate whether wind chimes would be appropriate in a free form high fantasy setting...your begiining to move over the edge of organization.

However, laying down a setting that gives enough options to the forum members without stifling their creativity is essential to Free Form.

~Shard

[Mike Holmes]

Just out of curiosity, but did you see my post prior to Fang's, Mike? You asked what could be used as positive reinforcement in FFRP, when I gave several examples.

Nope, didn't miss it, it's just that what you had all seemed to fall under the category of approving feedback that I mentioned, or punishment which Shard covered nicely. An excellent and inspiring example of those principles in actual use, however; thanks for that.

Anyhow, I can give an example of something that might be considered Gamist in FFRP.

...

Anyhow, I don't know if this exactly counts, but it was definitely a game, and one we were all trying REALLY hard to win.

I think it definitely counts. But it also reinforces my opinion that you need an objective GM (or panel of judges in the case of Shard's example) to have Gamism. I still can't visualize Gamism in unmoderated play.

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

I ran, and played in, lots of freeform games for the Sci-fi society when I was at university. Most of those were for between 30 and 50 people, and ran with GM control of everything bar social interaction and allowed actions(ie if somebody didn't mind something happening to them, it happened, if their brief said they could do it, it happened). If there was disagreement, the GM chose the result that made the plot more interesting.

OK, here we have an example of the LARPish use of the term Freeform (as opposed to online). Matt, do you know of any examples of such Freeforms that were conducted sans GMs? Just curious.

Also, it may have been Narrativist, but from your description we cannot tell. Resolving using the intuitive idea of what's best for the story is to use Drama as your resolution method (as Opposed to Fortune and Karma). The use of character actions would be a use of Karma. None of this says anything about how decisions were reached in terms of GNS. I'm guessing that play was mostly Gamist as you describe, with a Sim or Narr veneer. But Drama resolution does not ensure Narrativism in any way.

In any case, it sounds like a fun game. I like how you point out that the contract was included in the briefs. I've seen this method before, and it's usually pretty effective (though occasionally some bufoon does not do the required reading, and then there are problems).

The event that I have the most similar expeience with is the National Security Decision Making events run by the War College at Origins and GenCon. In these eight hour events there is a half hour sit down briefing that covers the situation and social contract in a fashion similar to what you describe with your dossiers. After the briefing, you recieve your position (up to 100 players usually playing the govermental posts of two or three RL nations), which includes your goals. I highly recommend it, though I suspect that given the events of the past year, that it'll be full quick. I remember the name Osamma Bin Laden having been mentioned at the game last year. These guys know their stuff.

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

2. A contest: We had a writing contest judged by forum leaders in other Free Form Forums.  The winners won Amazon.com gift certificates.  We only recieved three contestants but it was a good start.  Incidentally we gave a gift certificate to all three contestants.  They were VERY surprised.

Cool, I thought that was a possibility.

3. Storyline Direction:  Typically RPers who exhibit exceptional role-playing and who are "leaders" within the forum are recognized with the opportunity to take over the roles of key NPC's within the setting.  In some ways this is a sign of status, however I think it just gives people a great opportunity to expand their RPing and writing skills.  Additionally players who exhibited the highest Social contract skills also were the players who lead forum wide storylines with world spanning effects.  People followed and took part in their storylines because of their willingness to show thier leadership qualities within the forum.  This was encouraged by everyone.

OK, this is pretty common in different forms of MMORPGs and other similar stuff. People are promoted in some way to a status that gives them, as players, more abilities than other players. This seems to me to take two forms, either physical, or social. In the case of physical, there is someting about the way the game is set up that the player now has access to. Perhaps it is board moderation, or the power to write up maps for some games, etc. As opposed to social advancement, where it is simply understood that the player now occupies a privileged post and can perform story manipulations that are socially unacceptable for the lower ranks to perform (though not physically impossible).

I think you hit it right on the head.  Free Form eventually hits a very important line in the sand on both sides.

Organization vs. Open Ended

Too much of either and it starts to stray from Free Form.  Not enough rules or background setting and you get a chaotic mess.  Too much organization and background information and you step past free form and into something that borders on classic table-top roleplaying.

Toeing this line is a daily endeavor within online Free form communities and it sometimes takes stepping back a bit as a community and reassessing where you are going.  When people start to debate whether wind chimes would be appropriate in a free form high fantasy setting...your begiining to move over the edge of organization.

However, laying down a setting that gives enough options to the forum members without stifling their creativity is essential to Free Form.

Interesting. How much of determining where this line should go is based on preference, and how much is based on neccessity? I mean is the place that you draw the line just your opinion of what produces appropriate play, or is there some objective point at which failure is certain? I can maybe see it on the Chaos side, but as mainly a TT player, what's the detriment to heading in that direction? Just a distaste for such limits, or is there something else at work? For example, the wind chimes problem is solved in TT by the GM making a ruling. Is the problem in FF that GMs are not available enough to rule on such minor matters? Or that people feel that they should not be limited by such arbitrary rulings? What?

Mike