[Dungeon Opera (Was: Dungeon Noir)] Scenario Design

[Simon C]

Cross posted! I didn't realize your goal was a single dungeon, but I think the idea still stands.  You'd have to change the way "Dungeon" scenes rewarded players, though, so that they just provide another kind of resource, rather than being the primary means of achieving a goal.

I'm wary of systems that have a stat for "Humanity" - though this may just be from being burned by too much V:tM.  It's been my experience that having a reliable gauge of a character's humanity is an effective way to make players STOP worrying about it.  My most evocative moments of personal horror in V:tM were achieved once we dropped the humanity system.  It's more scary when there are no consequences for being evil, other than evil itself.  This is turning into a digression though.  Perhaps I should make an AP post.

[Jon Scott Miller]

Cross posted! I didn't realize your goal was a single dungeon, but I think the idea still stands.  You'd have to change the way "Dungeon" scenes rewarded players, though, so that they just provide another kind of resource, rather than being the primary means of achieving a goal.

Your idea sounds great, though I'm not sure I will use it for this game. The more I think about it, the more I think I've incorrectly described or imagined what exactly it is I'm after . . . maybe what I'm really after is not the generic "narrativist dungeon" game, for which your suggestion would be entirely apropos, but something a little more narrow in focus. Specifically, from the beginning I've had in mind a sort of dark fantasy game based on a combination of Jack Vance's Dying Earth and Clark Ahston Smith's Zothique tales. To a certain extent these are of course archetypal swords and sorcery yarns which influenced D&D-type fantasy, but they also diverge from the assumptions of D&D type fantasy in numerous ways.

I'm wary of systems that have a stat for "Humanity" - though this may just be from being burned by too much V:tM.  It's been my experience that having a reliable gauge of a character's humanity is an effective way to make players STOP worrying about it.  My most evocative moments of personal horror in V:tM were achieved once we dropped the humanity system.  It's more scary when there are no consequences for being evil, other than evil itself.  This is turning into a digression though.  Perhaps I should make an AP post.

That's a really interesting point which had not occurred to me. I would be very grateful if you shared some of your AP experiences on this topic. The Morality mechanic is currently the least well thought out part of my design, which is a horrible thing to confess because it's supposed to be one of the central elements of the game.

Regards,
Jon

[Simon C]

What this seems like to me is that you have a very strong idea about how your game should feel, but you're struggling to write mechanics that really reinforce that feeling in play. Specifically, you have strong ideas about the dungeon as the site of adventure and excitement, as well as it being the "solution to all the PCs' problems" in a way.  Have you considered making this dungeon an explicit part of your setting? So there's a single, vast dungeon in the setting, which is the site of all the adventures.  This dungeon contains, or is rumoured to contain, almost anything the players can imagine.  It's the focal point of great pilgramages of young heroes, seeking adventure, fortune, and possibly something more.  This gives you an elegant reason for all the PCs to have strong motivations for going into the dungeons, as well as tying the game to a specific site, allowing for recurring NPC characters, a staple of "Opera" type games.  Also, it allows the players to play idealistic youths in a morally complex, cosmopolitan setting, which is rife for the kind of compromises of integrity and corruption that you want to include in your game.

I've posted my own feelings about "Humanity" and "Morality" stats over in Actual Play, and Ron's given some really useful feedback to me, with some great practical applications to game design, if you want to check it out.  I welcome your own interpretation.

I'm glad you liked my idea, even if it's not what you were looking for.  I got really excited about it when I though of it, so maybe it will see light in some other form.

Cheers,

Simon

[Jon Scott Miller]

What this seems like to me is that you have a very strong idea about how your game should feel, but you're struggling to write mechanics that really reinforce that feeling in play.

A fair point. I do have a fairly specific setting in mind, but I wasn't sure if I should "write it into the rules." The setting features a cosmopolitan fantasy city, which sits atop and near a large area of ruins, the detritus of thousands of years of civilization, built before technology and society deteriorated and a new dark age began. I want to create specific feelings in the players--mystery, wonder, fear--and I also want them to author narratives with their characters that feature compelling moral challenges. As you have pointed out, the mechanics which would support these aims have yet tot materialize (I do have a draft of the rules, but it is not very good).

It may be that the rules for this game should support more than just the dungeon setting, however. That is, maybe the heart of this game is really the idea of darkish fantasy and moral development (or degradation), and not the site-based exploration per se. I think I've been hemming and hawing about just this issue from square one.

Thanks for the feedback, I am still thinking about the things you said.

Regards,
Jon