Fireballs

[Bob Richter]

It's a little different.  Armor of Air doesn't need to deal with molecules.  It only takes a bunch of air and tells it not to move so much.  Your spell needs something to rub up against (otherwise, no friction and no fireball), thus a Vision3 requirement (you are rubbing molecules together, right?) and it would also probably need something to burn... oxygen is not flammable, though fire needs it to burn.

Actually, what I'm doing is more or less exactly the opposite of what Armor of Air does. I'm telling it to move A LOT MORE. With a volume of gas, movement = temperature, and as the temperatures rise, NITROGEN (not oxygen) will combust.

[Bob Richter]

It's a little different.  Armor of Air doesn't need to deal with molecules.  It only takes a bunch of air and tells it not to move so much.  Your spell needs something to rub up against (otherwise, no friction and no fireball), thus a Vision3 requirement (you are rubbing molecules together, right?) and it would also probably need something to burn... oxygen is not flammable, though fire needs it to burn.

Umm...Oxygen is one of the more flammable elements in the lower periodic table. It's just not when it's diluted by everything else present in air (the 70-odd percent nitrogen, specifically).

Easy enough to get around with Sculpture 3 - seperate the O2 from everything rlse and rub two bits together to make a spark and WOOF! Of course, now the spell has a CTN of 11 and takes 110 seconds to cast...

Brian.

Nitrogen combustion is the basis for most chemical explosives, and for a very good reason. Combusting a volume of 70-odd-percent-pure diatomic nitrogen is very functional indeed, if you have enough energy to start the reaction.

Thus this spell burns NITROGEN in the PRESENCE of oxygen (as I explained in the spell description.) The mix isn't exactly ideal, but it's good enough. :)

[Bob Richter]

http://antoine.fsu.umd.edu/chem/senese/101/reactions/faq/is-oxygen-flammable.shtml

Oxygen is not flammable.

Which is besides the point, I think.  You could just get the air molecules moving very fast, strip off some electrons, and end up with plasma.

Of course, I think it's better, and more credible, for our middle-ages educated wizard to just remove all the air from the target's lungs, or something along those lines.

-Jeff

Nope. Fortunately, Weyrth's atmosphere has more or less just enough oxygen to burn things, without making them burn EXPLOSIVELY. Unless someone tells me different, I'll assume most of the rest of it is Nitrogen, which DOES burn, and quite explosively.

BTW, I don't know if you'd describe it as a COMBUSTION reaction exactly (it probably isn't by definition) but 2O2 (diatomic -- biologically useful -- oxygen) + O2 = 2O3 (Ozone, IIRC.) It's quite a workable arrangement, and it's a chemical that exists in nature. It just takes some pretty energetic stuff to make it happen.

Your average middle-ages Wizard knows fire kills. If he can find a way to MAKE a fire, it's just possible he'd use it to kill someone.

Maybe a wizard just decided to see what happened if he heated THAT volume of air one day and this was the result....

[Bob Richter]

Oxygen is not flammable

Very true, but if you heat it up enough nitrogen is.

The fireball as described is heating air up until the nitrogen gets above its combustion point at which point the nitrogen happily bonds with oxygen, releasing more energy, driving more combustion.

This feed back loop is the one that scientists were afraid would set the atmosphere alight when they first started atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons.

In the end if doesn't become an unstopable chain reaction, it heats up the by products of the combustion, not distributing heat out to to more combustable material, so after a while it just smothers and radiates the ramaining heat.

This is what was described, clearly and unambiguously, in the initial post.

Would a sorcerer imagine air to be a burnable thing? They wouldn't need to think of molecules. I rub my hands together to generate heat, I could rub two hard sided clumps of air together and end up with a sheet of fire expoding out into a fire ball.

Metal smiths learn that rock and metal will burn if you heat it up enough, it's not so unlikely that a crazy sorcerer might seek to burn the very air.

However, I understand the design logic that want's to avoid a dull magical artillary. Why not have it a story about the suppression of burning air magic, a dreadful menace which even sorcerers might discuss only in whispers. Maybe in future ages it will be an obvious spell, and people will look back and laugh at how little we knew then.

Food for thought,
Julian Kelsey.

Fire isn't _dull_ magical artillery. Disintegrating things is dull (replace Movement in this spell with Sculpture.) Fire has a little "Flash" to it. But I do like the idea of superstitiously suppressing "air-burning magic." THAT has flavour, and I like things with flavour. (Don't tell me I can't cast a fireball, tell me WHY.)

Besides, there's a thousand other good ways to turn Movement into magical artillery. :)

[Rattlehead]

Well, I think it might not be necessary to use Vision to see the molecules. Firstly, as others have pointed out a Sorcerer is not even going to know what a molecule is, most likely.

(Then again, perhaps he's been using Vison 3 as a sort of microscope to study the world around him?)

But, that's neither here not there, as you wouldn't really have to manipulate the air on a molecular level. In fact, to produce enough heat, you'd want to move a lot of molecules. So, perhaps the sorcerer would just take 2 "blocks" (cubes, whatever) of air, make the air stationary within those blocks, and then "rub the blocks together" to generate the heat.

This, of course, assumes the sorcerer has knowledge of 2 things:

1: Friction, and how it works. Sure, that's realistic. I would imagine that a sorcerer would know more or less what's involved there.

2: The flammability of atmospheric gasses. That one's a bit more questionable. It's possible that flammable gasses have been encountered before. (One of the dangers of mining, for example) But, knowing that the air you're breathing could erupt into flames under the right circumstances is probably beyond the ken of someone (even a sorcerer) in a medieval time period. They would have no real reason to suspect this, much less just "happen to know it".

Given that, I'd say that you'd need to come up with some other fuel for your immolation party...

Just spilling my 2 bits across the electron void...

Brandon

PS: I'm of the opinion that the statement in the TROS rulebook that "there are no Fireballs" was not to be taken literally, but merely to point out that this magic system doesn't work like the D&D (or whatever) system. Spells aren't chosen from a list, and they're not, as someone else described it: "A gun of a different color". I believe that's how they said it, anyway... :-)

[Bob Richter]

Doesn't all of this presuppose the sorcerer knows about oxygen, friction and the like? It seems as if we're really streatching credibility thin here...

-dave

Your Wizard is the most likely TO know. Using Vision, he can LOOK AT THE MOLECULES and see how they interact. A sufficiently curious and methodical Wizard could replicate much of modern empirical science in the course of a single lifetime. (The most powerful observational tool ever created has that effect.)

Or, like most good discoveries, Fireball could have been an accident.
:)

[contracycle]

Fire isn't _dull_ magical artillery.

Yes, it is.  Dull dull dull dull dull.  Terribly terribly dull.

[Bob Richter]

Fire isn't _dull_ magical artillery.

Yes, it is.  Dull dull dull dull dull.  Terribly terribly dull.

As I said. You think that's dull....

...just replace the "Movement" component with a "Sculpture" component and you have a "disintegration ball." That seems quite a bit duller to me.

Eh. The TN would climb by two, but Formalize it and it comes right back down to 9.

*ANY* good form of magical artillery is just as dull as another, and there are a LOT of them.

[contracycle]

...just replace the "Movement" component with a "Sculpture" component and you have a "disintegration ball." That seems quite a bit duller to me.

Not as much, 'cos its not been done as much.

*ANY* good form of magical artillery is just as dull as another, and there are a LOT of them.

Thats right.  Hence, they are barred in my games, pretty much.  I ran a celtic themed game a while ago when the most dramatic piece of actual magic used was a continual light spell cast on a coin, and it freaked the players out no end.  It was even used in a way to kill a monster.  It was far and away the simplest and most atmospheric use of magic I have ever pulled off in my games.

[Brian Leybourne]

Oxygen is not flammable.

-Jeff

OK, I'll concede to the superior chemistry knowledge of others :-)

So, given that, can someone explain the whole "leave a bottle of oxygen leaking into a room and then introduce a match" thing to me then. Just a bit of movie fiction?

Brian.

[Bob Richter]

Oxygen is not flammable.

-Jeff

OK, I'll concede to the superior chemistry knowledge of others :-)

So, given that, can someone explain the whole "leave a bottle of oxygen leaking into a room and then introduce a match" thing to me then. Just a bit of movie fiction?

Brian.

Pure oxygen makes combustion easier for OTHER things, thus the Apollo disaster, etc.

[Bladesinger]

If you will pardon my saying,the problem with most peoples take on the TROS magic system is the spell design assumes a very  large degree of scientific knowlege to understand and then alter reality. This produces great results and stops some of the silliness of other magic systems. That said it alos assumes the characters have that same knowledge and this is where I see problem. My solution as a player was to try and avoid creating spells that my character would not be able to understand the science behind.As a Senechal that job is not so easy. I guess what I'm trying to say is allowing a sorcerer to generate magic based on theory he has no way of fomulating himself, or, more than likely having no access to, just feels wrong. What say you all?

[Ace]

Don't forget about Vision 3! That vagary allows the Sorcerer more knowledge of things than we can do now. Assuming somehow Sorcerers never write down what they know or discuss it with other or are never conjured as ghosts and compelled to obey is silly

Remember there is no need for game balance in TROS. A Sorcerer is not matched with a Warrior in anyway. In fact he/she can do pretty much anything minus a few limits.

[Thirsty Viking]

Pure oxygen makes combustion easier for OTHER things, thus the Apollo disaster, etc.

While I'm sure the majority of folks know the details, let me illustrate this with the launchpad appolo disaster that happened within 2 days of my birthday.

They were sitting on the launchpad,  doing preflight checks.  To test the integrity of the capsule it was pressurized with full oxygen.  I'n the checks someone thre a switch,  which threw out a tiny electrical spark.  This spark ignited the ALLUMINUM and destroyed the capsule.   The three Astronaut died.  This is what happens in the precence of rich oxygen environements.

--------------------------------
I was never here for the previous discussion on spells, nor have I read up on them.  If you spot mistakes, please correct me.


As for this fire ball spell.  There are no spells examples that change Temperature in my edition (2nd printing).    Air is "FROZEN" in place, but not Chilled.  Think of this as invisible plate mail at the same temperature as the air surrounding the target.

For a master level movement spell cast on air...  I'd allow the volume air to be given a direction.  This volume is less than the size of 6 55 gallon Fishtanks.  hmmmm...  quick rule of thumb for those who aren't looking to do the math,  or keep fish  a cube slightly larger than 1 meter is 300 gallons.    BORING MATH ALERT

1   gallon =   3.785   liters =   0.003785   cubic meters
300   gallons =   1135.5   liters =   1.1355   cubic meters
Math Refrences

For a ball the radius would be  ....  
1.1355 m³ = 4/3¶r³
(¾*1.1355³)/¶ = r³
r³ =(0.851625m³)/3.1416
r³ =(0.271080023m³
r =.647191m = 64.7 cm = 25.47 inches ~ 2.1 feet

objects more than 4.2 feet apart are not touched by the same ball ... let alone engulfed  One person however could be turned into a pretty torch. If the spell worked.

DOES THE SPELL WORK?

Not as a spell of one.  A VOLUME of air can be given movement  ...  this is called wind.  The spell can be sustained as other spells can, but if you put air at light speed, you lose sight of it rather instantly.   However the Volume affected is one object for purposes of the spell....   Usefull for knocking over people (save vs knockdown/TN 9 + casting success). Knocking down the front rank of spearman in a unit just before the calvary/infantry charge hits them is a terific combat multiplier. (shield wall broken,  many of the second ranks' spears as well)

Another intersesting use would be to "freeze" a wall of air 1 inch thick about 18 inches high and ~ 120 yards wide.  You now have an invisible trip wall set in front of troops about to recieve a charge...  :-)  or a trip ring up to ~ 20 yard radius  or a square upto 30 yards to a side.  These are not effectiv against a deliberate advance..  but Dreadfully effective on running opponents.


LASTLY as a spell of three...  IF it were me...  i'd require two spells with volumes under   these could then be made to rub against each other to heat up.   As air heats...  it expands...  losing some weight beyond your volume limits.  

ALLOWING indescriminate physics from our world into Weyrth is a BAD idea  ....  Picture a 300 pound asteroid hitting the earth at just under the speed of light. (movement 3 volume 3)  I'm not going to do the math...  i assume this at leasts makes big volcanic crater...  OTOH it could be a primary extinction event for the game world.   Allowing the chunk to convert to pure energy at the speed of light is also quite devastating.  Possibly though it could be played as a bottomles pit(cut by your laser beam) to the other side of the world....  no doubt leading to tales that all worlds are beeads on the necklace of God  (see this is where you thread it).

So the statement there are no fireballs...  is very right in the D&D sence where a 1 combat round spell unleashes flames on everything within a 20' radius. Having a Spell take 90 times as many combat rounds, even when formalised for 1/1000 the volume, qualifies in my book as no fireballs.

As far as burning the nitogen...  there are lost of issues involved...  and the math is more than i'm willing to take one.   Assuming Air on Weyrth is = our air.  then 300 galons of air at sea level contains ~ 1385.31 grams of air with 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen.   Enjoy the rest of the math...  I won't allow it to matter in my world.  However I'd require Vision 3, movement 3,

[Apprentice of Steel]

2 parts

Vision of the Function
CTN 3
Vagrie Vision 5
D=0 hold it not a prob
T=0 you yourself
R=0 dito
V=2
L=3

This spell allows one to see the blood in a foes veins and arteries (literally or if you are being really picky you can go to sub celluar levels.

hey its only -3 spell pool can be lived with with formulization or gestures and vocals.

do that in the morning drop your spell pool by 3 for the day (hey its worth it later trust me)

Boil Blood
CTN 8 or 9
Vagrie movement 2 or 3 what do you think works?
T=2
R=2
V=2
L=2 or 3

By targeting the blood in the veins of the target (asuming you can see it hence previous spell)
And hyperAgitating the blood (if you use move 3 you are evil)
You can LITERALLY boil a foes blood

effects will range from

Air pockets in blood = painful nasty death through cardiac arrest
Blood burns way out of veins arteries etc = painful death through bleedout
Blood and Body spontaneously combust = you guess the outcome.

Oh true it may be survivable but it is a quick nasty way to go.

And all with out any clue in a dark stylee, half the tavern was watching him, when he exploded......

Its almost as funny as attempting a form of Calling Lightning by diverting the strike path in a storm so the bolts literally bend to strike the targets.

Some times they say dont offend the gods lest they hit you,
The wise say dont offend gods when druids are listening and theres a storm coming


Then again with some meterological expereince, Vision and movement you could make a storm (first observe the thing in action and build up then experiment till you know how to make a storm