[The Princes' Kingdom] Children, parents, and imaginative play

[joshua neff]

This is a continuation of my thread "The Princes' Kingdom, family style," although there are some other issues I want to discuss.

My wife, Julie, our daughter, Morgan, and I have started playing The Princes' Kingdom. Last week, due to a number of real world life things going on, I wasn't able to do any prep for our Princes' Kingdom game, so we played the Dragonology board game (which is actually quite a lot of fun) instead. We returned to TPK last night. Here's what happened in play:

I began the session by having Julie's prince, Caroc, and Morgan's princess, Marian, arrive at the village of Avide, on the island of Dugarre. I told them Dugarre was a largish farming island with two large villages, Avide and Affamay, with the governor's house sitting in the middle of the island, between the two villages. As soon as they arrive, they are met by Laquay, an obsequious man who introduces himself as Avide's mayor. He tells them how good it is that they've arrived, because now they can make the acting governor of the island, General Ponpierre, the official governor. He goes to fetch a carriage to take them to the governor's house, and while he's gone, a man in an alley whispers to get their attention. He tells them his name is Prudon and he is the real mayor of Avide, deposed by Ponpierre. He thens slips off into the shadows as Laquay returns with a carriage. They go to the governor's house and meet Ponpierre, a middle-aged man with a thin mustache, who sits with them for lunch and explains how he came to be where he is. He tells them there was a conflict on the island, the people of Affamay were facing starvation, and the island's governor did nothing. To prevent chaos and conflict, Ponpierre stepped in and declared himself governor. Since then, they have had nothing but peace. Ponpierre says he maintains order, makes sure everyone works hard and is paid a fare wage, everyone eats, and no one enacts violence on anyone else. Caroc and Marian decide to visit Affamay to see what's what, and there they meet the nervous and even more obsequious mayor, Bott. Bott tells them he has only recently become mayor, after Ponpierre, the previous mayor, became acting governor. Both Bott and Laquay enthusiastically support Ponpierre as official governor. At one point, an older woman walks by, drops a loaf of bread at the feet of the princes, and then whispers to them to talk with them in private. In an alley ("People keep wanting to talk to us in alleys!" Morgan said.), the woman says she is the wife of the real governor, Faible. She says Faible was unjustly removed from power by General Ponpierre, who then led a militia and invaded Avide, installing his own assistants, Bott and Laquay, as mayors of Affamay and Avide. She tells them her husband is imprisoned in the basement of the governor's house and asks them to release him. Julie says Caroc is suspicious of everyone and won't commit to helping anyone until they learn more about what's going on.

The two princes returned to the governor's house and marched right to the door that led to the basement, which was guarded by a young militia man. Caroc declared that as prince, he had the right to enter the basement if he pleased, and the guard didn't put up a fight. In the basement, they find two cells. Faible is in one, and in the other is Fleur, Prudon's daughter (around the same age as Caroc, who has a thing for girls). Faible insists he be released and swears that none of this is his fault, although he admits that when Affamay had a bad farming year and was lacking in food, he did nothing, as he didn't think it was his responsibility. Fleur tells them she has been imprisoned by Ponpierre to keep her father from organizing an outright rebellion against Ponpierre. She also thinks her father should be made the new governor, not Faible or Ponpierre. By this point, Morgan hadn't declared much of anything, following Julie's lead. Julie was getting obviously impatient and frustrated at that. She said, "Is this going to be The Julie Show again?" Morgan swore she would get involved, which she has previously done when we play this--follow Julie's lead, avoid making any decisions or initiating any struggles, but swearing she will do so "soon." I told Morgan, "If you want to play this game, you're going to have to stop following your mom and make your own decisions." Julie then declared that Caroc was going to go to the governor's library alone and do research, leaving Marian on her own. Morgan wanted to free Faible and Fleur, so she had Marian sneak down in the middle of the night, only to find that the door was guarded by a militia man. She initiated a struggle with him. At first, she tried to argue her way past him, using the same argument Caroc had earlier, but this time, the guard maintained that it was more than his job was worth to let Marian past, even if she did offer to take all of the blame later. We went back and forth like this for a few raises, and the Morgan threw in her ability to talk to animals, getting a house cat to distract the guard so she could get to the basement. This didn't quite work, so she then used her Good At Science quality to sneak away and make a sleeping potion to use on the guard and a skeleton key to unlock the basement door. The sleeping potion also failed, but she pulled in her I'm A Princess quality at the last minute, which the guard couldn't see. He relented, allowing her to go into the basement, where she unlocked the cells and released the prisoners. Both Fleur and Faible asked for her help and support. Morgan said she wanted to help both of them, but since she couldn't do that, she helped neither of them, just letting them escape to Avide and Affamay. Both Marian and the guard took fallout: she added the guard as a troublesome relationship, while the guard changed his relationship with Ponpierre from strong to troublesome and added Marian as a strong relationship.

The next morning at breakfast, Julie had Caroc talk about a strange dream he'd had, that mirrored what had happened with Marian and the guard. Julie then said that Caroc had decided, based on reading recent and historical accounts of what's happened on Dugarre and reading legal texts, that Ponpierre should be made the official governor. Julie outright said that she was doing this in part to have conflict between Caroc and Marian, Morgan said Marian kept a straight face and didn't reveal the events of the previous night. Caroc then recommended that Ponpierre release his prisoners; it would make him look more legit, and according to Ponpierre's own intelligence, any rebellion against him would be small enough to be insignificant. Ponpierre told the guard to release the prisoners, and the guard got nervous and revealed that the prisoners had escaped. Morgan said Marian continued to keep a poker face, until the guard looked imploringly at her and I reminded her that she had promised the guard she'd take the blame. After a lot of dithering and hesitation, Morgan had Marian reveal what she had done. It was getting late at that point, so I called the game for the night.

Okay, so...when I was Morgan's age and younger, I played a lot of imaginative games, even before I was introduced to role-playing games. When I played with my Star Wars and Fisher-Price Adventure People action figures, when I played "Superheroes" and other "Let's Pretend" games with my friends, the play always involved conflicts between people that had to be resolved in some way. It wasn't anything I gave a lot of thought to, it just came naturally to me. When Morgan has played RPGs with me (TPK and our earlier TSoY/Uresia game), Morgan has shied away from conflicts and making decisions that would result in characters being unhappy with her. When it was just the two of us playing, it got difficult for me, because I would end up basically telling her a story while her character watched the action. With Julie also involved, it takes some of the pressure off of me, although we've found we both have to prod at Morgan and separate her character from Julie's before she'll engage in conflicts. What Morgan really seems to groove on is the pure "Let's Pretend" aspect. She likes playing a character very much like herself ("Good At Science" and "Loves To Read") but fantasized (a princess with a sparkly, purple cloak and nice jewelry, who can talk to animals). She loves making up lots of details and color and she wants to act out every conversation, often hesitating before doing anything because "I'm trying to think of what I'm going to say."

I'm of two minds about this. On one hand, if Morgan prefers the daydreaming aspect and isn't really into conflict-driven narratives, that's totally cool. (But it's not a kind of play Julie and I really enjoy, and it's not a kind of play well-suited to games like The Princes' Kingdom, where resolving conflicts is central to the game. If this is what she wants to do, neither Julie nor I would be particularly inclined to continue playing.) On the other hand, as Morgan's parents, I think it's our duty to teach her the importance of not avoiding conflicts and that making hard decisions that leave some people unhappy is a part of life. It's my plan that as we continue to play, the islands they visit will become more difficult, with complicated conflicts that cannot be avoided, where Julie and Morgan will have to make decisions that leave some people unhappy. But then, I don't want the game to not be fun for her.

This morning, she said she had fun playing TPK last night. I asked her what was particularly fun, and she said, "I don't know. It was all equally fun." When I asked for a bit more detail, she said, "I like all of the action. And getting Caroc mad at Marian." So, maybe she just needs to get used to this kind of play.

[Mel White]

I told Morgan, "If you want to play this game, you're going to have to stop following your mom and make your own decisions." ...Morgan wanted to free Faible and Fleur, so she had Marian sneak down in the middle of the night, only to find that the door was guarded by a militia man. She initiated a struggle with him. At first, she tried to argue her way past him, using the same argument Caroc had earlier, but this time, the guard maintained that it was more than his job was worth to let Marian past, even if she did offer to take all of the blame later. We went back and forth like this for a few raises, and the Morgan threw in her ability to talk to animals, getting a house cat to distract the guard so she could get to the basement. This didn't quite work, so she then used her Good At Science quality to sneak away and make a sleeping potion to use on the guard and a skeleton key to unlock the basement door. The sleeping potion also failed, but she pulled in her I'm A Princess quality at the last minute, which the guard couldn't see. He relented, allowing her to go into the basement, where she unlocked the cells and released the prisoners. 

Hi,  I think it's very cool to see RPGs as part of 'family night'.   I don't have children, so I'm not able to 'compare and contrast', but I've been a kid ;-) and I'm wondering how Morgan reacted to the sequence of events regarding breaking the prisoners out of jail.  I know I felt frustrated reading it!  It seemed unfair that the ploy Caroc used did not also work for Marian (that she was royalty)--but perhaps it was a different militia guard, which would explain a different reaction or some other explanation.  But then the 'cat ploy' didn't work, and the sleeping potion didn't work (which I thought was quite clever), and then she winds up getting into the cells pretty much using plan she started with in the first place.   In your efforts to have Morgan 'play'  and have fun, perhaps she would get more involved if the story proceeded a little further towards her goal before finding herself facing a conflict that sort of short-circuits what she is trying to have her Princess achieve. 
Take care,
Mel

[joshua neff]

Hi,  I think it's very cool to see RPGs as part of 'family night'.   I don't have children, so I'm not able to 'compare and contrast', but I've been a kid ;-) and I'm wondering how Morgan reacted to the sequence of events regarding breaking the prisoners out of jail.  I know I felt frustrated reading it!  It seemed unfair that the ploy Caroc used did not also work for Marian (that she was royalty)--but perhaps it was a different militia guard, which would explain a different reaction or some other explanation.  But then the 'cat ploy' didn't work, and the sleeping potion didn't work (which I thought was quite clever), and then she winds up getting into the cells pretty much using plan she started with in the first place.   In your efforts to have Morgan 'play'  and have fun, perhaps she would get more involved if the story proceeded a little further towards her goal before finding herself facing a conflict that sort of short-circuits what she is trying to have her Princess achieve. 

All of this was part of one struggle (if you're not familiar with The Princes' Kingdom, conflicts are resolved in a similar way to the "raise and see" conflicts in Dogs in the Vineyard). When Caroc tried to get past the guard, it was a "say yes, or roll the dice" moment. I wanted them to meet the prisoners, since the prisoners had information the players should have, so I didn't call for any dice rolling. When Marian wanted to get to the basement later, it was to release the prisoners, which was a whole different thing, so...dice rolling to resolve a conflict. She would raise with "I tell the guard to let me pass, because I have higher authority than the General," and I would block, then raise, and so on. She didn't seem particularly frustrated with it--in fact, later, she pretty much said she enjoyed it. Before she even tried it, I told her it would be a dice-rolling conflict, and she was cool with that. Resolving conflicts this way is closer to some of the board games we've all played (it's not too dissimilar from the back and forth of ship battles in Pirate's Cove), so I don't think it's a problem.

[Simon C]

Hey,

DISCLAIMER: I neither have childern, nor have played TPK.  Take my comments with a grain of salt.  I have played with young gamers a lot, though, so I have a few suggestions based on my own experience.

It sounds like this was a really difficult decision to make.  I'm not really surprised that your kid found it hard to step up and make a choice here, for two reasons.  First, it was really unclear what the real situation was.  If the previous governor was bad, then him being deposed was probably an ok idea, except that it was a military coup which would probably make the king unhappy.  So the choice is between supporting a good (but unlawful) governor, over a bad (but lawful) one, with the impetus that some people are being unfairly locked up.  This is a really cool conflict to have to decide on, but it's a pretty difficult one to see a clearl good outcome for.  I know I'd find it difficult to make a choice, and in the presence of someone who pretty clearly has a better idea than me, I'd give them the lead.  You know your child better than I do, but I imagine she feels similarly. 

Secondly, once the prisoners were released, there seemd like little immediate harm would come from not making a decision.  It would be pretty easy for them to ignore the problems.  This, in my opinion, makes it easier for your daughter to leave it up to her mum.

I understand that TPK is meant to push difficult choices on the players, but I'd suggest starting easy with your daughter.  Present some situations where it's pretty clear what is the right choice (though make it clear that some people will still lose out), and make sure a decision has to be made RIGHT NOW.  Make situations where any decision is better than no decision.  Make sure the character is praised, in game, for making decisions.  I think maybe this will make it easier for your daughter to feel comfortable making choices, and you can start to ramp up the moral complexity after a little while.

I really enjoy your posts about this, and I hope the games continue to go well.

[joshua neff]

That's a good point, Simon, and definitely something for me to think about and keep in mind when designing the next island.

[joshua neff]

We played the second part of the adventure of Dugarre, and it was a smashing session.

Morgan had been talking all week about how her character was going to have a big argument with Julie's character, since they had some down on opposite sides of the support of General Ponpierre. But as soon as the session started and Julie started playing Caroc as the big brother, scolding Marian for releasing the prisoners and potentially causing a lot of chaos, Morgan deferred, having Marian agree with Caroc and apologizing. When General Ponpierre ordered a squad of soldiers to retrieve Fleur and Faible, Marian said she would help. Julie and I stopped the in-character stuff at this point. "What happened to us fighting?" Julie asked. Morgan said she didn't want to cause more chaos. I asked Morgan is this is what she really wanted Marian to do. "Marian doesn't have to do what Caroc tells her to," I said. I asked if she thought it was correct to have released the prisoners. She said it was. I asked her if it was right for Ponpierre to imprison them again, and for Marian to help. She said it wasn't. Julie and I asked her which was better, to go against her beliefs as long as things were orderly, or to fight for what she thought was right, even if it caused some chaos later on. She considered this, then said it was better to fight for what was right. "So, do that," I told her. "Do what you think is right, if that's what you want. Do whatever you want to do, not what other people tell you to do." Morgan decided to have Marian lie and say she was going to help the soldiers get Fleur back, but then ride ahead and warn Fleur. "I'll need to find a horse to do that," Morgan said. "You can find whatever you need," I said. "If I think it will require a struggle, I'll have us both roll dice. But if it's something fairly ordinary, you can get whatever you want. You're a princess. You don't have to have your character look for stuff, just tell me what you get."

So, Marian rode out with the guards, and I declared that it would be a struggle between her and the guards to get to Fleur first. We rolled off, and Marian won, using her ability to speak with animals to get the horse to ride faster and take a short cut. She got to the village of Avide and found Fleur and her father, Prudon. They asked Marian to help them depose General Ponpierre, telling her that Prudon was unseated as mayor because Ponpierre led his soldiers to invade Avide and take some of their food, then declaring himself governor and naming one of his aides as the new mayor. "Well, that's breaking a number of the King's laws," Morgan said. She was indecisive about actually helping them, so I cut from her and back to Julie.

Caroc went to talk with Ponpierre, chatting with him and asking him questions to try and ascertain the truth about what was going on. I declared another struggle, Caroc against Ponpierre. I rolled like crap, and Julie absolutely kicked my ass, even though I was pulling out all of Ponpierre's strong qualities and even had him draw his awesome sword and wave it at Caroc to intimidate him. So, Caroc got the truth of the matter (Ponpierre illegally assumed power and invaded Avide) and told Ponpierre that he could no longer support him as governor. Ponpierre called in a squad of soldiers and I declared another struggle, Ponpierre and his soldiers against Caroc, to imprison Caroc and keep him from plotting against Ponpierre. I had forgotten that Ponpierre, as a false leader, could use the Problem Level dice to back him up, so I threw them in this time. With those dice and the soldiers helping him out, Caroc was toast. I didn't realize how toast he would end up, though. I had the soldiers smack Caroc with the flats of their swords, and then Ponpierre socked him for the coup de grace. Caroc ended up with so much fallout, after the first few dice got him over 20, I stopped counting. Caroc needed a healer or he'd die, and Marian was at another part of the island.

Julie and Morgan came up with an idea: a falcon saw what happened to Caroc through the window and flew at top speed to Avide to tell Marian. Marian told Fleur and Prudon that she had to leave immediately for the Governor's house or her brother would die, and Fleur said, "Wait! I've been trained in the healing arts." ("Oh, of course she has," Julie wryly remarked.) I declared another struggle: Marian against the general Problem Level, to get to Caroc in time. We went back and forth, as Marian came across the soldiers she had left behind and they tried to stop her. She got her horse to race around them, made it back to the mansion, unlocked the basement door with the key she had made in the last session, and got to Caroc's cell. At that point, it was getting late, so I ended the session on that cliffhanger. ("Next week: will Caroc live or die? Dum dum dummmmmmm!)

Morgan was much more willing to throw Marian into conflicts in this session, and she's getting better about having her character act independently. I think it helped that Julie had her character end up agreeing with Morgan's character. I also think it helped that the conflicts were all much more obvious than last session. And I'll admit, I got a kick out of encouraging Morgan to go against her mother and not do what she said.

[ffilz]

Just a thought:

Would it have made sense to use Marian's rush back to save Caroc the essential part of the healing conflict? The obstacles and need to get back are nice compelling obstacles to the healing, potentially more compelling than narrating various wound effects.

Frank

[joshua neff]

Just a thought:

Would it have made sense to use Marian's rush back to save Caroc the essential part of the healing conflict? The obstacles and need to get back are nice compelling obstacles to the healing, potentially more compelling than narrating various wound effects.

Frank

In retrospect? Yes. At the time? No, it didn't. And now I'm kicking myself. *sigh*

[cdr]

Caroc ended up with so much fallout, after the first few dice got him over 20

Only the two highest fallout dice are summed to determine fallout, so how can you get over 16?
If you add them ALL up, that's a really lethal variant!

Everything else sounded really great, I'm eagerly looking forward to the next report!

[joshua neff]

Caroc ended up with so much fallout, after the first few dice got him over 20

Only the two highest fallout dice are summed to determine fallout, so how can you get over 16?
If you add them ALL up, that's a really lethal variant!

Oh for Pete's sake! You're right, but my eyes completely moved right over where it says to only add the two highest dice. Sheesh!

Everything else sounded really great, I'm eagerly looking forward to the next report!

Thanks. We played the third (and final) session of this island, but I haven't written it up yet. I think we'll take a break this week, because we're getting ready for my daughter's tenth birthday this Sunday.