Miniatures-Driven Roleplaying Rules

[Darcy Burgess]

Hi Calithena,

Another thought popped into my head, and it may have done so in parallel to Troy's last post.

1. Pick a 'non-combat' type of scene (MrAtomek's example of "can I convince my girlfriend that I'm not the Green Ghost" is a reasonable starting point).

2. Decide how you'd use miniatures in that scene.  Not in a "um, my guy is here, she's here, so let's put their minis on the 'apartment' map.  Sitting.  Doing nothing."

Once you've sorted that out, I bet that you'll have the game in the bag.

Cheers,
Darcy

[Calithena]

1) It's OK with me if we use this thread as a coordination/linkage thread, and I can't see why on earth Ron or Clinton would object, though if they do they'll let us know.

2) However, I would say that we should start gradually tapering off general discussion here if we're going to use it that way. The thing to do of course is to go to other First Thoughts or Actual Play threads (linked here) where specific ideas are pursued in a concrete play or design process, followed by Endeavor when we actually have something written up, etc.

3) I agree that there are (at least) two paths represented here and I like what Troy and Darcy have to say about this. I would say that Krasnoarmeets seems in some ways to straddle the line between them so that may be a valuable model to learn from. I fully endorse the idea of 'uplifted children's play' (though I'd want to get that spirit even into a skirmish minis RPG, to be honest, and I think that some '70's D&D material actually is still useful for inspiration if not solutions on this problem) and I think that every answer to Darcy's question is going to represent a genuine design opportunity on these lines.

[komradebob]

Maybe the first step is to define certain types of RPG scenes. Look at how the miniature's features can affect the scene. It's quite possible that this type of "miniature driven RPG" is actually an attempt to uplift make-believe with Transformers, GI-Joes and LEGO figs.. All of that was fun when I was a child with a creative mind. I'm not sure adults can handle the open-mindedness and playfulness that is required to pick up a fig and really see something fantastic beyond the strategic value in competition.

Wait- Adults or Gamers?

I don't mean to be mean, but really, this is a gamer issue, not an adult issue.

[mratomek]

Here's something that pops to mind and is an issue with "RPGing" miniatures: Time and Space.

An RPG has a much greater ability to change the setting than a miniature wargame. And by "setting" I mean with a short paragraph, a group of characters can be transported anywhere in existence. And a short paragraph later, the characters are back.

Shifting around tabletop terrain in a similar manner would not be as easy and probably is impossible. It takes time to setup a scene.

Furthermore, if a character's physical location on the table does not create any added tension, then it really isn't going to be fun to play that on the table top. For example, your character has to travel 12" across the street and talk to a civilian. Well, there is no need to play that out. That is why I developed the Complication. A verbal form of play that is used to setup subsequent minis gaming.

However, if a character had to work his way across a flast flowing river filled with big pieces of ice--jumping from ice to ice--to work his way across to a civillian--well, that would be fun to play on the game board. Add some ferocious wolves chasing your character, and it could be even more interesting.

But, you can't always include tension building elements to relatively insignificant actions. Sometimes, a conversation is just that. So having some form of verbal play to help propel a story forward without needing to setup the whole scene on the tabletop is fun and has worked well in the games I have played with Super Force Seven.

MrAtomek

[mratomek]

Here's a sample of a fast-play game that combines narratives, complications and conflicts. Its only a draft and is missing more of the color text, but it is an example of stitching together a story with both verbal and tabletop elements:

Riddle Master's Revenge

A serial killer is on the loose in Big City. So far, there have been three victims and every indication that there will far more. The police department is completely baffled and seems unable to crack the case. The perpetrator is openly challenging the authorities to capture him, which only adds to their frustration.
   With time running out before the next murder, detective Smith calls on one of his old friends for a little help.

Note: This Fast Play Adventure pits Riddle Master and his crew versus members of Super Force Seven. You can, of course, replace any of the heroes, villains and civilians with any of your own characters.

Team Roster: 1000 pts

Narrative
Riddle Master, a crazy and cruel villain, has returned to Big City to exact revenge upon those individuals that were the cause of his twisted life. They were a group of elementary kids, 30 years ago, who were mean and treated him horrible. They caused him to be ostracized by all the other children and began his lonely trek into insanity.
   Even all these years later, Riddle Master can recall their names and faces—and the terrible deeds they committed against him.


1. Complication

Villain: Riddle Me This
The villain purposely left a clue, taunting the police to catch him. Pick one character and determine the best TN possible using his Mind, Super Intelligence, Super Presence, Literature (Profession) or a similar power. You can also use any applicable feats or special abilities.
   That TN is the TN that the heroes will challenge for their complication.

Heroes: Madman on the Loose
Select a single character to challenge the complication and solve the riddle left behind by the villain. The character can use his Mind, Divine, Super Intelligence, Literature (Profession) or similar power to make 1 Round of action rolls versus the TN (see Riddle Me This).

Successes   Results

0   You were unable to decipher the clues left behind in the riddle. Your best hunch is that the villain will strike in one of two places next. You are forced to split-up your forces and send them to two different locations.
   The villain secretly writes down either number 1 or number 2 on a piece of paper (or uses some other method to record which location he will strike at next). The heroes indicate which character/s will travel to which location.
   The villain reveal which location he will strike at and only those hero characters that were sent to that location may play.

1-2   You were able to decipher the riddle, but realize the crime is going to be committed within in minutes. Unless the character has Super Speed, Super Sonic or Lightspeed, he cannot be used in the next conflict. Instead, he contacts his teammates that must move quickly to prevent the next murder.

3+   You were able to decipher the riddle and realize that Riddle Master is seeking revenge against the classmates that made his life miserable. Not only do you arrive 1 Round earlier than the villain, but you also gain a free Monologue special ability.


2. Conflict: Murder at Madison Avenue
Riddle Master has prepared to strike again. This time, his target is Sally Smith, the mean, pig-tailed girl that would bully him in elementary school.

GV: 500 pts

Setup: Players start at least 12" from her apartment building. Roll for intiative.

Objectives: Heroes must protect Sally Smith.
   Villains must eliminate or capture Sally Smith.

End Game: The game lasts 5 Rounds.

Victory Conditions: At the end of 5 Rounds, if Sally Smith is eliminated or captured by the villains, the villains gain 1 victory point. On the other hand, if Sally Smith is still alive and free, the heroes gain 1 victory point.

Consequences: Any characters eliminated during this Round remain in play. Any captured heroes are Riddle Master's hostages and start as captives in the final conflict. Any captured villains are arrested. If Riddle Master is arrested, he manages to escape; however, the villains total GV for the final conflict is reduced by -100 points.

Sally Smith (Special Rules): Sally Smith is controlled by the heroes (the heroes do not pay for Sally Smith). She is not initially placed inside the apartment, but is placed as soon as the villains either enter the apartment or use a power to find her and make a successful action roll.
   
   
Sally Smith
Hero

Actions: 2
Mind: 1
Body: 1
Spirit: Good
Life: 3
Max Lift: 100 lbs

2 Move

Amazing Dodge
Monologue


3. Complication

Villains: More Riddles
Once again, Riddle Master challenges the authorities and the heroes to prevent another murder. He determines another TN in the same manner as he did in Scene 1.

Heroes: Time is Running Out
The heroes must once again solve the riddle. The heroes can only use a character that was not eliminated or captured in Scene 2. If it is the same character that challenged the complication in Scene 1 and that character scored a 3+, then the TN for this riddle is automatically reduced by half.

Successes   Result
0   You were able to decipher the clue, but it took much longer than you hoped. You enter the game in Scene 4 at the beginning of the 3rd Round.

1-2   You were able to decipher the riddle.

3+   You were able to solve the riddle quickly. You deploy your characters after the Riddle master deploys his. Your characters must be at least 6" away from any villains. Furthermore, you automatically win initiative—no roll is made.


4. Conflict: The Final Countdown

The Riddle Master has setup an elaborate ending to his murder spree. He has setup all his captives beneath a giant clock that will crush each of them in turn. Besides any captives from Scene 2, the Riddle Master has also kidnapped Brian Stark and Edward "Chip" McCleod.

GV: 750 pts

Setup: Villains setup anywhere on the map, including placing any captives. The captives must be in a line, 3" a part from one another. The heroes start along any edge of the game board, no closer than 12" away, no farther than 24" away.

Objectives: Heroes must protect as many captives as possible.
   Villains must eliminate as many captives as possible.

End Game: The game lasts 10 Rounds (or players can choose to play until all heroes or villains have either been eliminated, captured or exited the game board)

Victory Conditions: The heroes gain 1 victory point for each captive (including captured heroes) that is alive at the end of the game. The villains gain 1 victory point for each captive (including captured heroes) that is eliminated at the end of the game.

Captives (Special Rules): All of the victims—Sally, Brian and Edward—are controlled by the heroes (the heroes do not pay for them). As soon as they are freed by the heroes, they can attempt to escape and exit the game board.   
   
Sally Smith, Brian Stark and Edward "Chip" McCleod
Hero

Actions: 2
Mind: 1
Body: 1
Spirit: Good
Life: 3
Max Lift: 100 lbs

2 Move


Doom Clock (Special Rules): All captives are tied securely to chairs with large weights above them. The TN to free a captive is TN 8 Dif x3. On the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, etc. Round, one of the weights with a force equal to an action roll of 21. The weights will automatically score a Fatal, 4-Hit attack versus any of the victims. The results may vary with heroes.
   The weights weigh 5 Tons each. If a hero can, he can use any of his powers to try and prevent or protect the captives.
   The villain gets to choose which weight drop when—there is no order to them.

[komradebob]

Total Tangent:
"Uplifted Kids' Play" is one of the best descriptions I've ever heard for this sort of thing. ( Even if it took me a few minutes to make the connection, having skipped the Uplift novels...)

[komradebob]

Here are some older threads dealing with minis and rpgs that I either was involved in, started, or reference for ideas.



Thoughts on New Directions (Me)

KrasnoArmeets Feedback thread ( James Holloway's Game)

Tears Like Rain A one shot plastic cowboys and indians game I made using Matrix Game rules.

F Scott Banks talks about a minis/ccg hybrid idea

Discussion of my "Village Game"

[David Artman]

Hopefully, this is getting closer to the original topic--it's definitely related, though not as much about tactics as it is about RP with "minis":

I am a Looney Labs Demo Rabbit, primarily designing and presenting Icehouse Pyramid games at cons and hobby stores (and bars).

A buddy of mine and I have begun talking about how to use pyramids in an RPG, where each player would "create a character" by spending points to build a stack of pyramids. The position of the pyramid in the stack dictates the function as it pertains to both combat/tactical situations and social/RP situations:
Grounded Pieces - Every piece which touches the ground is considered a "movement ability." The color of the piece determines the medium through which it applies, the size (pip count) of the piece determines range. As a total of three pieces could potentially be grounded (a small under a medium under a large), it is possible to devise a LOT of combinations of movement abilities.
Topmost Pieces - The topmost piece and the next piece that it touches in the stack determines mental and/or social abilities that the character possesses. Size and color again determine effect--color, probably for type of effect; size for power/skill level. (Remember: this is a work in progress--nothing is really "firmed up.")
Body Pieces - Everything between the topmost pieces and the grounded pieces is the character's "body." Color and size determine both what the character can do and what the character's defenses are.

Character development comes through using Rewards (more points to spend) to position new pieces in your stack, at the top, bottom, or in the body.

Character injuries, dimishment (aging, disease, persistent effects), and death come from the loss of pieces in the stack. This has some neat knock-on effects:
1) Lose your topmost, and you're principle mind/social abilities change to the next two topmost in the stack.
2) Lose a bottom piece and your whole movement capability could change.
3) Lose body pieces and see the effects of "damage" eliminate or change your core abilities.

Now, keep in mind that there are currently 11 different colors of Icehouse Pyramids, and you can imagine how many possible "skills" or "points of contact" the system would have. This is why, I feel, it could go beyond mere tactics: there are not that many meaningful tactical movements, if combat is fairly granular. SO, a LOT of those body pieces would support "traditional" social skills like Intimidation, Seduction, etc.

As for the (conflict/task) resolution system... well, I did say it was a work in progress.

I guess, mainly, I wanted to (a) inspire your thoughts about minis and their evolution in play and (b) "tag" this thread, to watch it.

Regarding point (a), perhaps you'd do better to move away from classic lead/plastic minis and look towards the more versatile, posable action figures or even 12" figs? Those figures can be made to hold different items and, sometimes, even support different clothes and what-not. And there's nothing that says you couldn't supplement their paint (white streaks in hair for aging). The utility/flexibility of the Icehouse Pyramids RRG, after all, comes from how easy it is to alter a stack....

HTH;
David

[David Artman]

AND... I had to go ahead and start the wiki development process, at Icehouse.org:
http://icehousegames.org/wiki/?title=RPG

If this helps, great; if not, sorry to derail....
David