Draconic

[xiombarg]

I wanted to split off and talk about Draconic, which got mentioned in passing in another thread...

I like the looks of Draconic, and the mechanic is similar to Otherkind, which I already like. But it was mentioned it's in a more incomplete state. I'd like to mention what I'd like to see in a more complete version.

Obviously, Puissance, Savvy, and Mien are going to need to be described a little better. And I'm worried that it's too easy to get no faulures when one Extends.

But I see the heart of this game being in the Dragons. What I'd like to see, as this game develops, is more on dragons, how they are designed, how Naming them works, what effects that has, and some serious examples of what fighting a dragon is like, and what goes into it. Like Sorcerer and demons, this game is going to rise or fall on the strength of the Dragons, and in making the combat really epic.

Oh, and a minor nitpick: A Dragon's ability to "pick first" is irrelevant if the player gets three successes, yes?

[hardcoremoose]

Thanks for starting another thread.

Almost everything you asked for is what I hope to eventually achieve with the game.  At the risk of sounding like I'm whining, I went for a long time where my game design was pretty stagnant, and I've got too much on my plate (and in too short a time, considering GenCon is right around the corner).

First thing's first:  This game spawned a lot of terminolgy really fast, and I'm still sorting through a lot of it.  Suggestions are welcome.

And here's the deal with Extending oneself:  It's going to require some skillful play on the part of the GM, in that to build towards a dramatic conflict, he may have to drive some adversity at the PCs' weak spots first.  They can't be good at everything all of the time, so by delivering conflict to them where they are required to use their lower attributes, and by making that compelling enough that they would be willing to risk Extending themselves, the GM might be able to lower their better attributes and or hit them in their Wellbeing, which will then leave them weaker for a later showdown.  Of course, the power ultimately lays in the hands of the players, who are the only ones who can ever choose to Extend themselves.  I think that this mechanic will help a GM come up with interesting conflict, in that he'll be forced to look at the characters are good at and not so good at, and maybe imbed some of that in the scenes he frames.

Also of note, the healing mechanic is vague.  It says that there is always a way to fix the damage a GM does to you as a result as being Overextended, but that stuff works on a case-by-case basis.  This is another great opportunity for the GM to introduce mission or quest-based content into the game, a sort of "Do this, and I'll fix what's ailing you" sort of thing.

Yeah, the dragons are the heart of the game.  As I described to Vincent, they aren't just a breed of nasty lizard.  They're primal forces of hate and violence, and each one is totally unique unto itself.  The Naming Ceremony is the big cool thing in this game, as I see it, where you step up on a dragon and give it a name (you know, how dragons in fantasy novels always have uber-cool names), thereby demystifying it, stealing a bit of its power, and making it vulnerable to you.

So it's sort of a a fantasy version of Moby Dick, but they're really a framing device.  They provide a sort of context for everything that happens, as it's really about what it means to be a slayer in this particular world, where being a slayer means being everything to everyone all of the time, and how you can never hope to live up to all of that.  The dragons themselves may only show up once or twice during a given session, but when they do, it should be the most dramatic moment possible.

Oh, and a minor nitpick: A Dragon's ability to "pick first" is irrelevant if the player gets three successes, yes?

Yes, that's correct.  As a GM, you'll probably want to be careful when you bring those dragons into play.

Thanks,
Scott

[lumpley]

Oh now Scott, now that's just cool.  Dragons are all about timing and PC weaknesses.  That's much cooler than my ol' Iron stat.

-Vincent

[Bankuei]

Y'all keep dropping stuff like this and I'm going to have to gather my weekend crew for a 3 day "that old next shit" marathon... :P

Anyway, I'm really diggin this, I was just talking to someone in my local game shop yesterday about how D&D both fails to be realistic, and also fails in being heroic, mentioning, "All those pictures where you see the one guy facing off with the dragon, I want to do that, and I want to kick ass!"... Man, and here you are....

A couple of questions though, it mentions that a slayer's Wellbeing could be lowered...nowhere else is it mentioned, or did I miss something?  Also, do characters improve solely through the Keepsake/Battlescar rules?  

Finally, I'm seeing the naming ceremony as some sort of either trick/trap to get the dragon to do a certain task or identify itself by a name, or a game of riddles, is this correct?

Chris

[hardcoremoose]

Chris,

Holy crap, you're right...somehow I lost the rules for Wellbeing. Here they are:

You have three levels of Wellbeing...I called them something like Stymied, Flustered, and Hamstrung (real original, I know).  Anyway, at Stymied, you roll one less Base Die, at Flustered you roll two less, and at Crippled you get no Base Dice.  The lower your Wellbeing, the more necessary it becomes to Extend yourself, and the more you Extend yourself, the easier it is to Overextend yourself.  You get the idea...it gets nasty.  If the GM gets a chance to Confound you - and he can do it on any Overextended Conflict, not just one that involves combat (because Wellbeing does not represent mere physical health) - this is what he'll probably want to do to you.

I don't want to give away secrets, but another game out there takes a similar approach to impairing character effectiveness, and yes, I do believe I lifted it from that (unintentionally, of course, but how could I not be influenced by it - it's such a cool game, right Ron?).

Anyway, the Naming Ceremony is a sort of ritualistic thing.  If you can get within earshot of a dragon and "name it", and do so so that it hears the name you give it, and you can survive the attack it's going to level at you as soon as you try it, then the dragon is considered "named" and must accept it.  It becomes a little more mortal, as some of its enigmatic wonder and awe has been taken from it, and these feelings usually are disconcerting (up until that moment, the dragon was immortal, and knew no emotions like fear or doubt).  You can name more than one dragon at a time, but to do so is kind of suicidal.  Once named, a dragon can not be named by another, and is only vulnerable to his particular slayer.  If he kills his slayer, in time knowledge of the dragon's name will fade (hurried along by the dragon, who will kill anyone with knowledge of its name if it can find them, and it usually does, as dragons can hear their name anytime its whispered).  Once a dragon's name has been forgotten, it regains its immortality, but until that time, another with knowledge of its name can assume the mantle of the dead slayer, and need not go through the Naming Ceremony.

Anyway, that's what I got at the moment.

- Scott

Edited in...Yeah, Battle Scars are the main source of improvement, and Keepsakes can be added to as well.  But here's one of my hang-ups with the game, and maybe you can help me with this - I think the characters are a bit cluttered.  They're just sort of these collected things, without much holding them together (at least, that's how I see them).  Stat Descriptions help, but I'm thinking I need to get rid of Keepsakes or something.

BTW, did anyone notice the connection between Battle Scars and Jaws?  I love Jaws.  This game is very much a tribute to Jaws.

[Bankuei]

Once named, a dragon can not be named by another, and is only vulnerable to his particular slayer. If he kills his slayer, in time knowledge of the dragon's name will fade (hurried along by the dragon, who will kill anyone with knowledge of its name if it can find them, and it usually does, as dragons can hear their name anytime its whispered). Once a dragon's name has been forgotten, it regains its immortality, but until that time, another with knowledge of its name can assume the mantle of the dead slayer, and need not go through the Naming Ceremony.

This works well for making each PC a hero of a particular story, depending on which dragon they are facing.  I really like the idea of the cinematic "But you must kill him, for I have fail..ed...." passing on of the mantle.  I can see some very interesting ideas of someone hiding in code or through riddles the name of a dragon so that future generations might have a chance against it.

Anyway, the Naming Ceremony is a sort of ritualistic thing. If you can get within earshot of a dragon and "name it", and do so so that it hears the name you give it, and you can survive the attack it's going to level at you as soon as you try it, then the dragon is considered "named" and must accept it.

This part I'm a little more skeptical of.  I was thinking of a riddle contest or a point where you have to trick the dragon into answering to a particular name or title that would be unique...

"The last of your pathetic kind to amuse me thought he had earned right to an audience with me because he learned 3 words of the ancients.  I burned the holy mountain and him into a glass monument to the greatest acheivement of your species..."
"Ah, you are the Infidel who burned the mount, I had thought he'd crumbled into dust, a decrepit old dragon who managed to spawn this mewling pup of a lizard to dwell in the relic of his greatness."
"What!?! You dare presume I am no other?!?"
"Then you are the Infidel, and with your action, you have seeded your death..."

Or something like that...  

Chris

[Zak Arntson]

I like this game. The conflict resolution really speaks to me.

- I wouldn't think you'd need Wellbeing points. If you suffer a Sweeping Defeat, well, there you go. The GM can kill you or worse. This is the most dangerous profession, after all.

- I like the Naming Ceremony vague, left up to the group. It could be anything from a defiant shout ("I name you Firedust!") to an hours-long battle of wits to an entire adventure spent delving into the ancient libraries found in terrible swamps in search of recorded information on the beast.

[DaR]

I spent a lot of the weekend thinking about Draconic, since it happens to be just about perfect system for modeling certain types of really dark, gritty fantasy.  (For anyone who likes that sort of thing, the first DVD of  the Japanese anime Berserk was recently released in the US, and if you substitute 'demons' for 'dragons', I can't think of a better genre example for Draconic).

The only real direct comment on the system I have is:  more examples, man, more examples!  Write lots of 'em.  I'd especially like to see examples for Keepsakes and Battlescars, what sort you imagine, and how different dragon slayers might use them in conflicts.

The other thing is less of a system question, and more of a 'How to GM Draconic' question.  How do you anticipate dealing with multiple players in a group?  So far, the structure seems to work fantastically for one dragon slayer in pursuit of his nemesis dragon, but I don't see a lot of incentive for multiple slayers to come together and work as a group.  Each would constantly be going off in pursuit of their own nemesis.  I've recently been enlightened to the utility of styles of play where the players didn't form a party, per se, but even then, there's usually common thread or central plot that everyone tends to revolve around, which I don't see Draconic as encouraging.  Any thoughts on this?

Other than that, I really like it so far.

-DaR

--
Dan Root

[xiombarg]

- I like the Naming Ceremony vague, left up to the group. It could be anything from a defiant shout ("I name you Firedust!") to an hours-long battle of wits to an entire adventure spent delving into the ancient libraries found in terrible swamps in search of recorded information on the beast.

Kinda like Sorcerer, eh?

I'd still like there to be examples, tho...

[hardcoremoose]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the comments.  I intended to get back to this thread tonight to answer Chris' concerns about the Naming Ceremony, but I think Zak pegged it.  My vision of dragonslayers is that they are these really bold forthright sorts who get right up to the dragon and say "Ha, I give you this name, and that makes you mine!".   But while pondering what Chris said, I kind of came to the conclusion that dragonlsayers should be as diverse as the dragons they hunt (that was really my intent all along), and that I shouldn't shoehorn them into a specific model just because I like that particular image.  So yeah, the Naming Ceremony could be highly varied, and as individualistic as the slayer.  My only recommendation is that the dragon be somehow involved (if you research the name in the library, you at least need to go find out if it works).  

And most Namings have already taken place at chargen, so they exist as part of the character's backstory.  Yeah, I need rules for those crazy few who want to name every dragon they come across, but at the start it's assumed you've already been around this particular block at least once.

As far as multiple players goes...this game definitely will work well with one player and a GM.  I have some ideas about getting together slightly larger groups - maybe some variations on the rules that allow you to create a group of dragonslayers hunting a single beast, or maybe the dragons start working in concert, bringing a group of slayers together.  I don't want it to be too contrived, but those are my thoughts.

The Wellbeing issue is a good one.  As I wrote my response earlier in this thread, I started wondering if it was an unnecessary complication.  I already have rules for messing with PC effectiveness (Overextended characters can lose points directly from their Attributes), and frankly, it's not the most original idea I've ever had.  I'm definitely thinking it'll get removed from the final version of the game, and I'll leave it at that.

Now for some other revelatory stuff.  This game began as a Sorcerer idea, which I was calling The Invincible Monster Hunters.  It was loosely inspired by Brotherhood of the Wolf and some anime (like Zeiram), but I eventually switched gears (because I was already working on a Sorcerer mini-supplement, and because a lot of people around here starting talking about fantasy and I got a bug up my butt to see if I could get it right).

I hear your pleas for more examples, and I promise I'll get to it eventually.  It's Vincent's idea that this and Otherkind should be packaged together in some way, and I'm excited as hell about getting to do something with him (especially since Otherkind is so cool).  Draconic is a long way from finished, and it's a really, really long way from reaching the bar set by Otherkind, so I will have to get to work on this game some time.  But first I have to finish the aforementioned Sorcerer mini-supplement (as Ron let slip earlier, it's called Charnel Gods, and I hope to have it done soon), and then up is NightWatch.   Then maybe I can get this done.

Thanks again,
Scott

[Bankuei]

It was loosely inspired by Brotherhood of the Wolf and some anime (like Zeiram),

Both are great, but have you seen the live action Zeiram?  It came before the anime, and gave really great atmosphere.  

I'm not sure you need wellbeing, but I also wanted to check something else.  Why would you ever only extend 1 or 2 dice, instead of the full 3?

Chris

[Zak Arntson]

To extrapolate on the library idea - I pictured the research leading to the slayer confronting the Dragon. Once she is facing the Dragon and shouts its name, it's Named. Something like,

(after three years' worth of research and adventure)
"You! Ascend from your icy pit, Betrayer of Hrothgar!"
(Dragon erupts in a flurry of snow and ice)
"Silence, human! Two-thousand years ago, Hrothgar slew my mate and thus ended the Age of Peace when Dragonkind and humans lived side by side."

(thus, the Dragon admits to the fact and is named. But it took a long time for PC to find a piece of 2,000 year old history from a dead and forgotten civilization)

[hardcoremoose]

Chris,

I've seen Zieram 1 and 2, the live-action ones, as well the anime.  Very cool creature design, and both live-action films are a lot of fun (but I'm especially fond of the first).

Sometimes I just can't figure out gamer psychology, so I'm not sure if anyone would ever want to Extend themselves less than all three dice.  But there may be times when they want to ensure one or two successes (say they only have an Attribute of 1 or 2), but won't want to go overboard.  I dunno; the only playtesting I've done is my wife, who is not a gamer, and most certainly does not think in terms of strategy or the best tactical options.

The Extension rules (I really hate the terminolgy, BTW) only exist so that the players can emphasize those conflicts they really want to succeed at.  Whether it works or not...we'll see.

- Scott