Heroes of Leyreth Power 19

[Adam Graham]

1.)   What is your game about?**
The struggle of the righteous in a world consumed by the corruption of man.

2.) What do the characters do?**
Stand up as heroes of righteousness against the evils of man and the world both physically (through combat) and diplomatically (through role play) as needed.

3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?**
The players navigate a character through a story narrated to them by the GM.

4.) How does your setting (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?
The setting is a world that is beginning to, and largely already has, fallen away from their trust in God as they are consumed by sinful desire and temptation.

5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?
All character classes are designed in order to play an active roll as moral and righteous followers of God in the combat against evil in a dark and sinister world. 

6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?
Righteous and moral behavior is rewarded whereas immoral and selfish behavior is penalized.  Good role playing, regardless of the behavior portrayed, is rewarded as well.

7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
The game rewards moral and righteous behavior in aspect of increased experience points gained and the increasing of the faith attribute (still working on this one)  for acting in these manners.  Likewise the opposite it true for acting immoral and uncaring toward the plight of mankind.

8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?
The game is narrated by a single player (the GM) who handles all aspects of rule interpretation and implementation.

9.) What does your game do to command the players' attention, engagement, and participation? (i.e. What does the game do to make them care?)
The concept of Heroes of Leyreth is to continually have the players in a situation where they are the one of the few who will stand up for the week or oppressed, regardless of the actual circumstance.  Their actions in this matter can not only affect their own well being but also the well being of those who have no hope or ability to do so themselves.  To actually make them care, I confess I do not know how to do this.

10.) What are the resolution mechanics of your game like?
Any action that has a consequence for failure is decided by the skill of the participant and the roll of the dice.  Exceptional results can increase the speed and effectiveness of the action whereas horrible results can have a negative consequence.  No matter how difficult an action is it can always be attempted, possibly successfully, and no matter the skill of an individual the chance of failure is always there as well, no matter how minute.

11.) How do the resolution mechanics reinforce what your game is about?
The mechanics allow for one to try in any situation regardless of the odds stacked against them just as they are trying to halt the encroachment of evil upon a world where it is predominant and therefore all but impossible to do so.

12.) Do characters in your game advance? If so, how?
Characters advance in level by overcoming the obstacles that face them, be they diplomatic or hostile.  Each such encounter awards experience points based on their difficulty and in what manner they are resolved (righteous or unrighteous). The next level is reached by acquiring a total number of experience points equal to 10 times the level to be attained.

13.) How does the character advancement (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?
As characters grow in knowledge and ability they increase in level.  The more moral and righteous their conduct while doing so the faster they level.

14.) What sort of product or effect do you want your game to produce in or for the players
As the background is a setting of clear cut good verse evil, and as the players play on the side of good they should become accustomed to handling such obstacles in a moral manner.  In theory this could reflect in their day to day attitudes of real life. Additionally, as the game is set in a fictional biblical style setting it could cause some to become interested in the real stories of the Bible.

15.) What areas of your game receive extra attention and color? Why?
The selfish and greedy heart of man.  In order to draw attention to the fact that this condition is real in our own world today to such an extent that it is deemed acceptable.

16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?
The concept of what it is about.  Ever since I became a Christian I began to notice the way most fantasy game systems utilize pagan mythology as a background for religion while ignoring the Christian religion.  Many times I ran fantasy game campaigns (mostly one incarnation or another of D&D) with a single god and a single adversary as the religious background and always had the need to heavily modify the religious aspect of the system to do so.  This system, background and setting, allows for me to build from the ground up what I have been trying too accomplish for the last 10 years of my RPG life.  I'm not doing it someone else's way, I'm doing it may way, and the idea that I can publish such a work for the world to see, whether they take interest or not, really excites me.

17.) Where does your game take the players that other games can't, don't, or won't?
Heroes of Leyreth draws the players into a world that allows for many of the very same issues of today to be portrayed in a middle age fantasy setting in which the hold of evil is strong upon man (just like today).  Players then navigate their way through this setting in an attempt to stand up for what is right, no matter how popular or unpopular the right thing is.

18.) What are your publishing goals for your game?
I am planning on an E-Book as well as a published soft cover.  Currently I am leaning towards Lulu for this purpose.

19.) Who is your target audience?
Those in their mid to late teen years and older who are either of a Christian or non-Christian background.


Adam

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Thanks for posting a Power 19.  Let me add a few comments to what you wrote that might be helpful.

2.) What do the characters do?**
Stand up as heroes of righteousness against the evils of man and the world both physically (through combat) and diplomatically (through role play) as needed.

-I can tell your game has a lot of religious overtones.  So let me ask, what kind of combat are we talking about here?  Are we talking about physical combat or spiritual combat?  I would think spiritual combat would be FAR more interesting for two reasons.  First, it's a lot less cliché for a roleplaying game.  Second, and more importantly, Paul wrote in first Corinthians: "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;" and also in the book of Zechariah the prophet says, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."  So I would think spiritual combat, where the characters fought demons of all sorts (imps, fallen angels, succubi, devils, etc) would be rather novel.

3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?**
The players navigate a character through a story narrated to them by the GM.

-This sounds fairly GM-centric.  Do the players have any way of contributing to what sorts of challenges they will face or the places they will go?

5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?
All character classes are designed in order to play an active roll as moral and righteous followers of God in the combat against evil in a dark and sinister world.

-So, I'm guessing you'll have classes like Evangelist, Prophet, Healer, Prayer-Warrior, Exorcist, or Worshiper?

6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?
Righteous and moral behavior is rewarded whereas immoral and selfish behavior is penalized.  Good role playing, regardless of the behavior portrayed, is rewarded as well.

-In this case, you will need a mechanic for each of these.  What is Righteous/Moral Behavior?  What does it do to a character?  What is Immoral/Selfish Behavior?  What does it do to a character?  I would define each of these in very broad terms.  Listing various actions that are one or the other will be tedious to write and tedious to read.  For instance, you might want to say that Righteous Behavior is something that benefits others (or at least one other) greatly and perhaps yourself just a little.  Immoral Behavior is something that benefits yourself and only yourself.

7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
The game rewards moral and righteous behavior in aspect of increased experience points gained and the increasing of the faith attribute (still working on this one)  for acting in these manners.  Likewise the opposite it true for acting immoral and uncaring toward the plight of mankind.

-What do experience points do in your game?  It looks like they may be tied to advancing attributes.  But what else could they do?  How could gaining experience bring the character closer to God?  Also, have you considered something like Sin Points?  These would be used track the immorality of the character (and damage taken from contact with demons) and could only be absolved through forgiveness or penance.  If he accumulates too many Sin Points, he "falls" and is no longer worthy of God.  It's just a thought.

9.) What does your game do to command the players' attention, engagement, and participation? (i.e. What does the game do to make them care?)
The concept of Heroes of Leyreth is to continually have the players in a situation where they are the one of the few who will stand up for the week or oppressed, regardless of the actual circumstance.  Their actions in this matter can not only affect their own well being but also the well being of those who have no hope or ability to do so themselves.  To actually make them care, I confess I do not know how to do this.

-Okay, in this case you absolutely must give them something to care about.  They need a "Motivation" mechanic.  I can easily see several to choose from.  Here are a few examples off the top of my head: Building a Church, Redeeming a Loved One, Curing a Plague, Exposing a False Prophet, Guarding a Missionary, Exorcising a Town full of the demon afflicted, Raising Funds for a Missionary, Converting a Village of Unbelievers.  These can all be a hook that gets the campaign going.  Just read the book of Acts and you'll get plenty of ideas.  And I would also encourage you to allow the players to pick it rather than the GM.  Once the players make their choice, the GM can take it from there.  It will make his job A LOT easier.

10.) What are the resolution mechanics of your game like?
Any action that has a consequence for failure is decided by the skill of the participant and the roll of the dice.

-So, what types of actions will characters be performing here? Are we talking about picking locks or climbing a rope?  Also, how can Faith and closeness to God play a roll here?  Do the players have a way of using some kind of Faith currency to circumvent a roll for the action?  Can their Faith overcome a physical obstacle just like it could a spiritual obstacle?

11.) How do the resolution mechanics reinforce what your game is about?
The mechanics allow for one to try in any situation regardless of the odds stacked against them just as they are trying to halt the encroachment of evil upon a world where it is predominant and therefore all but impossible to do so.

-I take it, then, that every action is an explicit confrontation between a force of Good and a force of Evil?  If so, I again reiterate the idea that all conflict be on a Spiritual level rather than a Physical level.

12.) Do characters in your game advance? If so, how?
Characters advance in level by overcoming the obstacles that face them, be they diplomatic or hostile.

-Levels in what?  Is it in their Faith?  Their denomination? Their class?  Their closeness to God?  Or are there multiple advancement paths that can be advanced simultaneously?

15.) What areas of your game receive extra attention and color? Why?
The selfish and greedy heart of man.

-If you could, would you describe the color you add to this?  I'm not sure I understand what you mean by adding color to the "greedy heart of man."

16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?
The concept of what it is about.  Ever since I became a Christian I began to notice the way most fantasy game systems utilize pagan mythology as a background for religion while ignoring the Christian religion.

-Cool.  So let me ask this: Are you going to strictly keep pagan motifs and themes complete separate from the Christian religion of your game?  Or are you going to blend them in some way?  From your other post, it seemed unclear to me.  For instance, if all the PCs start out on the side of God, how could they be a Magi?  That would seem opposed to the laws set out by God in the Book of Leviticus: "Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God."  and also Deuteronomy where God says, "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."

17.) Where does your game take the players that other games can't, don't, or won't?
Heroes of Leyreth draws the players into a world that allows for many of the very same issues of today to be portrayed in a middle age fantasy setting in which the hold of evil is strong upon man (just like today).  Players then navigate their way through this setting in an attempt to stand up for what is right, no matter how popular or unpopular the right thing is.

-I think this is the most awesome part of your game.  I applaud your bravery and focus in this regard.

18.) What are your publishing goals for your game?
I am planning on an E-Book as well as a published soft cover.  Currently I am leaning towards Lulu for this purpose.

-Clinton R Nixon is the man when it comes to Lulu.  Definitely hit him up with any questions you have on that topic.

-Anyway, I hope my comments help you in your design process.  Good luck and let me know if I can be of any further service!

Peace,

-Troy

[Seth M. Drebitko]

Thanks for putting up the power 19 its a great help.

7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
The game rewards moral and righteous behavior in aspect of increased experience points gained and the increasing of the faith attribute (still working on this one) for acting in these manners.  Likewise the opposite it true for acting immoral and uncaring toward the plight of mankind.

I think out of all of these things I would like to see this worked on the most, at the moment you seem to have everything else a bit more figured out. To me this aspect of your game is what would make me want to play it because of the gritty internal conflict it can bring about, but your current idea falls short as there is know benefit to being bad at all. I think there should be some sort of quick fix for power for those choosing a darker path but ultimately in the end those righteous in cause will truly benefit.
In your last thread some one pointed you in the direction of the game paladin I strongly suggest checking it out I think the way it handles the corruption concept of a character is excellent.

[Adam Graham]

Troy,
From the responses you have given I know full well I have given the wrong impressions of my system.  Heroes of Leyreth is not a Christian game to the extent that you are referring.  Though I do agree that a spiritual resolution system would be very interesting and different from the norm it is not what I am trying to create.

The game is a fantasy sword and magic type system (yes, much like all the others) that puts all the focus on playing heroic individuals that stand against evil through both diplomacy and combat, as they are moral people who have faith in God in a dark world overcome by evil.  The classes available are somewhat stereotypical fantasy classes but they are all focused in their professions morally.  An example of this is the Rook class, in most systems this would be the thief class but they aren't thieves.  In fact the class represents a covert spy who investigates and infiltrates the cult followings of Nihil (the devil) where they exist among man in order to expose them and bring them down.  Their primary skill focus is in the area of knowledge about these cults as well as bluff, impersonation, and stealth skills.  In contrast to make a true thief, yes the Rook class could be used and all that is needed would be to change up their skill selection, but that could easily be done with any class at near to the same degree.

Jumping ahead,

In this case you absolutely must give them something to care about.  They need a "Motivation" mechanic.  I can easily see several to choose from.  Here are a few examples off the top of my head: Building a Church, Redeeming a Loved One, Curing a Plague, Exposing a False Prophet, Guarding a Missionary, Exorcising a Town full of the demon afflicted, Raising Funds for a Missionary, Converting a Village of Unbelievers.  These can all be a hook that gets the campaign going.  Just read the book of Acts and you'll get plenty of ideas.  And I would also encourage you to allow the players to pick it rather than the GM.  Once the players make their choice, the GM can take it from there.  It will make his job A LOT easier.

I read to much into the question presented here.  I consider these things to be simple plot devises used to drive the story forward, and quite frankly any of these would be perfect for the game's setting.

Do the players have a way of using some kind of Faith currency to circumvent a roll for the action?  Can their Faith overcome a physical obstacle just like it could a spiritual obstacle?

There is no faith currency, though the work I have been doing on a faith attribute will increase the odds of success for those that are acting in a moral and righteous behavior as it represents their being in the center of God's will.  I am almost to a point of being able to play test what I have, and hopefully be able to share it in its entirety by the beginning of next week (game day is next Saturday).

If you could, would you describe the color you add to this?  I'm not sure I understand what you mean by adding color to the "greedy heart of man."

Add color to it? No.  Place extra attention on the issue, yes.  The sinful heart of man is why the world is in the state it is in.  Sinful desire in the heart of man is the very element used to create the setting.

So let me ask this: Are you going to strictly keep pagan motifs and themes complete separate from the Christian religion of your game?  Or are you going to blend them in some way?  From your other post, it seemed unclear to me.  For instance, if all the PCs start out on the side of God, how could they be a Magi?  That would seem opposed to the laws set out by God in the Book of Leviticus: "Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God."  and also Deuteronomy where God says, "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."

Elemental magic (and no other) is acceptable as it was a gift from God to the Blessed ones.  I know this is contrary to the teachings of the Bible, but this is a fictional fantasy setting not a biblical work.

I apologize if I seem to come off rude, it is not my intent to do so to any degree.  I realize that  a  fantasy system that allows magic to be acceptable goes against biblical teachings.  I am trying to capture the spirit of Christianity in a world with a fictional (and therefore different) theology.  The ideals are the same but the rules are different.   Though this work is written with a heavy Christian theme I do not plan to market it  under the label of "Christian RPG".  On the other hand it is not meant to be a covert tool that attempts to sneak in a Christian RPG to the masses.  It is simply a fantasy RPG that is written by a Christian with Christan themes.  In this forum I listed it as a Christian based RPG because that is what it is, a RPG based on Christian ideals.  Not a religion role playing game.

Again, I am sorry if I mislead some to believe that this was an actual "religious system", it is not.

Seth,

Quote
7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
The game rewards moral and righteous behavior in aspect of increased experience points gained and the increasing of the faith attribute (still working on this one) for acting in these manners.  Likewise the opposite it true for acting immoral and uncaring toward the plight of mankind.

I think out of all of these things I would like to see this worked on the most, at the moment you seem to have everything else a bit more figured out. To me this aspect of your game is what would make me want to play it because of the gritty internal conflict it can bring about, but your current idea falls short as there is know benefit to being bad at all. I think there should be some sort of quick fix for power for those choosing a darker path but ultimately in the end those righteous in cause will truly benefit.

As I mentioned above I'm currently working on the Faith attribute.  As it stands there is a benefit to those who act with compassion and a negative to those who act out of their own best interests as opposed to that of others, or turns a deaf ear to the plight of those in need.  The  attribute scales till one can no longer be considered righteous.  I realize that these things are more of an issue of morality than righteousness but as only faith makes one righteous, not deed, I am going with the idea of "show me your faith by your works" to justify its implementation.  Thin maybe, but I really don't know how else to do it differently without becoming an actual religious game, which as I stated above this is not. 
As for a quick fix for being evil, that is an interesting idea, but I don't know that I want any benefit for being evil.  With the faith system penalties are applied if one is righteous but not acting in accordance with God's will.  If they are not righteous, but of an indifferent or corrupt piety they don't suffer from these penalties regardless of how they act.  The basis for this is that if one has faith in God and is therefore righteous but acts outside of God's will, God will make things harder for them to accomplish in order to get their attention that their actions are not reflective of their calling.  If they are not righteous God is not using this as a tool for correction as it is not perceived the same way by one who is not a follower of Him. 
Actually, the quick fix could be represented with this as if one needed some fast $ for some reason they could steal it, they got the money and the problem is solved.  However as they acted out of greed and deception they lose a point of faith.  This now causes them to be at a negative to all their rolls until they make atonement.  If they had gone about getting the $ honorably (however this may be) they would not lose a faith point, not be negatively affected, and the next righteous act they perform will help their faith increase (harder to do than loose it btw) not be used for atonement.

In your last thread some one pointed you in the direction of the game paladin I strongly suggest checking it out I think the way it handles the corruption concept of a character is excellent.

I have it bookmarked and have begun looking at it a bit, however I have been away from the CPU most of this weekend and have not had time to take an in depth look, hopefully tomorrow as I get the day off.  Yippee.

Adam

PS.  I get the feeling my response here is going to raise the question of whether my system is not focused enough one way or the other, as in to much Christian ideals to not be a religious game yet to much fantasy (magic acceptability) to be so.  In regard to this, as I mentioned in one of my other posts, I have been doing this very thing in most of the games I've ran for quite some time.  This time, instead of modifying an existing system to what I want, I'm doing it myself from the ground up.

Thanx for the imput, it all helps
Adam

[johnwedd]

I'm not to hot on mixing religon with these genre of games. Lets just say, it ruins the buzz for me.
and it doesn't seam that your useing the bible or any of the other monotheological conicle texts as source books. it looks to be something closer to a karmatic or wicca-truth.(ie, "so long as it harms none, do what ye will"). and theres alot of systems that take karma into account.

[Adam Cerling]

Hey there Adam --

Here's a question I hope will help.

Do you want your players to always do the right thing, no questions asked?

That's the kind of system you are setting up with your faith mechanics. You clearly reward good and punish evil. The best decision is always clear. You get unquestioning robotic obedience to the standard.

Maybe that's fine, because your focus is on the fun of kicking evil's ass, and all this stuff about good and evil is just a way to Bible up the combat. This is a great system for getting your dragon-slaying kicks without offending Evangelicals.

If instead you want to convey the struggle and sacrifice of upholding good in the face of evil, this faith mechanic falls kind of flat. For that, you've got to make evil pay off big and pay off often, at least in the earthly life. Without facing temptation, how can you show faith?

Adam C.

[Adam Graham]

Adam,
Your comment makes perfect since.  Before this topic of faith was brought up as a mechanic I had not thought of it.  Then I began to see everything one way, which as you pointed out will encourage every action to be autonomous, which will remove the role playing freedom of a role playing game, which makes it kind of pointless.  I'm really not trying to create a game to please Evangelicals.  For what my system is attempting to accomplish that would be like preaching to the choir.  There are plenty of full on Christian RPG's out there, actually I had no idea how many until recently.  I simply wish to create a vehicle for which the players immerse themselves as righteous (Godly) heroes in a world overcome by the evils of man.  These posts over the last few days that have encouraged this to a further extreme, though helpful, I think were beginning to draw me away form the line I really wish to not cross, that is becoming overly spiritual with the system.

The faith attribute needs work, allot of work, and as you are the second to point out the need for evil to get a fix out of acting evil then that means it warrants further attention as well.  I'm currently looking at different systems to get a feel of what I want to do then will probably draw from them all into something I will use.  Also your mention of temptation is perfect.  What I think is the most difficult aspect of drawing a resolution for faith is to make it clear and concise in its interpretation to not allow for either player or GM abuse nor nave it be too "Goody Two Shoes".  The frustrating aspect of this is I know what I want, well ok I know what I think I want, detailing it however is somewhat difficult.

Adam

[Adam Graham]

Ok, as might be obvious this whole issue of faith and evil and what not has got me all worked up to the point that its what I have been doing all day.  I wonder where my wife went, oh well.

I spent some time reading Paladin and the part on anumis or whatever it was called, and pretty much wished I could just import the whole thing into my game.
Anyways, using that as a point of focus and running with it i came up with this:

FAITH
As faith represents one's commitment to God it is tracked as a whole with a starting value based upon ones piety.
The maximum faith level attainable is ten.  Those of a righteous piety begin with an untapped faith level of three.  Those of an indifferent piety begin with a tapped faith level of one, and those of a corrupt piety do not have faith, but instead have negative faith.

Tapping Faith
Faith can be tapped (used) in order to assist one in any situation that grants a D100 roll by applying a bonus of ten to that roll for each faith level tapped.  Alternately it may be used to reduce the roll of another by the same modifier as long as the one whose roll they wish to reduce is within sight.  Only one individual may reduce the roll of another, though if multiple people try only the one with the highest applied modifier will take precedence.  The decision to tap faith must be made before any actual roll is made and the only limit to the amount of faith that may be tapped at once is the amount of faith possessed by the individual.
Once faith is used it is gone, but only in the since that it cannot be used again until it is replenished.  Replenishing faith requires one to engage in acts that help others as opposed to themselves.  Doing so will refill one's faith dependant upon the difficulty and risks involved.  If little risk is at stake for benefiting others then only one level of faith is restored, moderate risk will restore half of the used faith (or a minimum of two faith levels whichever is greater) and great risk will restore it all.

Using the Sinful Nature
Man is born with a sinful nature.  This sinful nature can be used to tap faith much like normal though instead of drawing upon their faith in God for assistance in an action one channels their energies from the depths of their wicked being.  Even those devoted to God have the ability to tap their sinful nature as this is the state of mankind.  Using the sinful nature to tap faith is accomplished much the same way as tapping faith, as it actually does tap faith just differently.
First of all the decision to tap into the sinful nature is made after the dice are rolled.  This is of great benefit because one will be well aware of the result of what tapping into their sinful nature will bring about.  Secondly, using the sinful nature to tap faith grants a bonus of twenty per level of unused faith tapped, instead of only ten, to the same rolls that tapping faith normally would.  Lastly, if the faith level has already been used tapping it with the sinful nature allows for it to be used again, but this time only at the normal bonus of ten.  There is one side effect to using the sinful nature to tap faith.  It removes the faith level permanently from the one doing so.  Of course it can rise again to its former level but only through actually gaining a faith level, not through the normal means of replenishing faith.
Though there is no limit to the amount of times in a turn a single individual may tap their faith, faith cannot be tapped normally and through the sinful nature in order to apply a single combined modifier to an individual's action.  However, they can be tapped in the same turn on the same individual for different actions.

Increasing Faith Levels
Faith levels can be increased.  Doing so is much more difficult than replenishing used faith however.  In order to gain a faith level one must go through an entire scenario (as in one complete part of the story as determined by the Teller of Tales) without tapping into their sinful nature.  Furthermore, as with replenishing faith, this scenario must be done for the benefit of another with no direct benefits to oneself. 

Untapped Faith of One and Zero
When one who is righteous is reduced to an untapped faith level of one they are teetering on the edge of indifference, and if the sinful nature is tapped again they will become of an indifferent piety.  Gaining back faith at this point will require great atonement and reconciliation to God as it is no simple matter to shun God one moment and then beg for His forgiveness the next, especially when one was already sanctified to Him. 
If one who was never righteous is moving from an indifferent piety to a righteous one gaining a level of faith would be handled normally.

Corrupt Piety & the Sinful Nature
When one is of a corrupt piety they have something similar to faith though in reverse. For simplicity this is tracked as negative faith and has a beginning value of negative one.
This negative faith can be tapped for a twenty percent bonus per level tapped as normal though once it is tapped it cannot be used again until replenished.  Replenishing negative faith, as well as gaining negative faith levels, is accomplished at the same rate as replenishing normal faith though for being greedy and self serving as opposed to being sacrificial.
Attempting to move from a corrupt piety into one of indifference, or even righteous is possible.  However it is something that very rarely occurs and therefore is of no simple task.

I hope this is not to reflective of Mr. Clinton R. Nixon's system to be considered theft, I really have no idea how strict or liberal the copyright is or if it even applies to this.

No obviously this will need to be tested to see if its overboard but as the faith resource can be expended very quickly I don't think it will be.  I also need a better name than "negative faith", iniquity maybe.
Comments?

Adam

[Callan S.]

I've got a bit of a curly question, in terms of thematics.

However, God, in His love and mercy, offered to whoever would receive it His forgiveness, thus reconciling man to Him if they would only have faith in Him.

What happens when you die without reconciling? Hell?

The theme of your game seems to be redeeming the sinful. Is perhaps this a battle that pits the heroes against getting choices out of sinners when the sinner has no choice?

By non choice, I mean if a sinner believes in the concept of hell, you obviously don't want to go there. So taking up reconciliation isn't a choice, because of the two options, only one is viable. That means a choice wasn't presented.

So your heroes are up against getting people to make the right choice, when they haven't been presented with a choice. That is a heck of a battle.

Although I do wonder if you can have a lateral effect - where sinners make choice exist, by 'discovering' god has certain qualties and that makes reconciliation a choice over before, when he didn't appear to have those qualities.

Interestingly, this means the sinner assumes he's qualified to say what qualties god has. On the other hand, god being omnipotent and all, perhaps he encapsulates all qualities anyway.

But in the end, the sinner has to raise himself to such a postion where he can name the qualities of god. A sinner.

Reconciliation seems to be an important part of your game, so I gave it a few thoughts. Some might be useful.

[Eero Tuovinen]

I hope this is not to reflective of Mr. Clinton R. Nixon's system to be considered theft, I really have no idea how strict or liberal the copyright is or if it even applies to this.

Not theft. You might want to mention any games that influenced your work in your bibliography, but other that, learning from other designs is par for the course. If you wanted to try to manage an outright copyright violation, you'd practically have to copy and paste another person's game text; that's how much copyright protects game designs. But that's a separate topic, and being law being a slight taboo issue for Americans, better to not pursue it here.

No obviously this will need to be tested to see if its overboard but as the faith resource can be expended very quickly I don't think it will be.  I also need a better name than "negative faith", iniquity maybe.
Comments?

Seems good, except perhaps three things:
- While the mechanic you opted for using faith is a pretty common way of doing that, it's not very rewarding. Nothing is more annoying than using a limited resource in a desperate situation and losing despite the expenditure. It's like you wasted the resource. Consider making positive faith a constant generic bonus (perhaps lowering the negative bonus to +10 at the same time), like a cloud the faithful floats on that makes everything slightly easier.
- Are you intending to accept a player-character going into the depths of inequity, or are you working in cross-purposes with yourself? How's it going to work if one player decides that hey, it's actually easier and more fun to be evil? I know how Paladin and other such games manage this, but I want to hear your version.
- Connected to the above, it seems to me that you don't have any kind of a dramatic end-game mechanic, yet. That stuff is very useful, because at some point a player is just going to call it quits for his character and choose either the side of light or the side of darkness. When a player gets it into his head that his character is a real evil bad monster, it would be useful if at some point of the faith track the character was simply removed from the game, as the player affirmed his decision. It seems counter-intuitive to let the character go on into developing his evil into some mighty munchinism, collecting evil xp and getting stronger. Seems weird in a game that should be about struggling with evil.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Heroes of Leyreth is not a Christian game to the extent that you are referring.  Though I do agree that a spiritual resolution system would be very interesting and different from the norm it is not what I am trying to create.

The game is a fantasy sword and magic type system (yes, much like all the others) that puts all the focus on playing heroic individuals that stand against evil through both diplomacy and combat, as they are moral people who have faith in God in a dark world overcome by evil.  The classes available are somewhat stereotypical fantasy classes but they are all focused in their professions morally.

-Ah, I see.  You are going for a much more allegorical game.  Good.  Have you thought more about how to classify actions taken by the characters as Good or Evil?

Peace,

-Troy

[Adam Graham]

Good Morning, I have some quick responses before work.

Posted by: Callan S.

By non choice, I mean if a sinner believes in the concept of hell, you obviously don't want to go there. So taking up reconciliation isn't a choice, because of the two options, only one is viable. That means a choice wasn't presented.

If you mean that the decision of whether choosing hell over heaven is not a choice because it is an obvious one then I don't see how that is any different from the real world today.  If you mean something different then could you explain it differently please.

Although I do wonder if you can have a lateral effect - where sinners make choice exist, by 'discovering' god has certain qualties and that makes reconciliation a choice over before, when he didn't appear to have those qualities.
Interestingly, this means the sinner assumes he's qualified to say what qualties god has. On the other hand, god being omnipotent and all, perhaps he encapsulates all qualities anyway.
But in the end, the sinner has to raise himself to such a postion where he can name the qualities of god. A sinner.

Again I apologize but I do not understand what you are saying.

Posted by: Eero Tuovinen

- While the mechanic you opted for using faith is a pretty common way of doing that, it's not very rewarding. Nothing is more annoying than using a limited resource in a desperate situation and losing despite the expenditure. It's like you wasted the resource. Consider making positive faith a constant generic bonus (perhaps lowering the negative bonus to +10 at the same time), like a cloud the faithful floats on that makes everything slightly easier.

I've implemented a constant bonus to all actions  equal to the level of untapped faith.  Faith can still be tapped both ways, normaly and through the sinful nature, I'll test numerous ways this Saturday and see how it goes.

- Are you intending to accept a player-character going into the depths of inequity, or are you working in cross-purposes with yourself? How's it going to work if one player decides that hey, it's actually easier and more fun to be evil? I know how Paladin and other such games manage this, but I want to hear your version.

Currently I am having the character removed form play should they fall into a corruptive piety.  Not doing so shifts the type of game form heroic to villainous, not to mention the internal party conflicts that will arise.  That is not what the game is about.  Now if the entire party decided to fall to evil I personally might continue the game for a time it depends.  Evil is fun sometimes but interestingly enough its usually short lived.  Humm, a lesson their maybe.

Posted by: Troy_Costisick

-Ah, I see.  You are going for a much more allegorical game.  Good.  Have you thought more about how to classify actions taken by the characters as Good or Evil?

At the moment, continually acting contrary to one's disposition (alignment) will cause a disposition shift one level toward the disposition being portrayed.  Beyond this, which is entirely up to the GM, I have nothing.  I keep thinking of a way to tie it to faith but that isn't really what I want nor is it realistic.  Even when David committed the murder of Uriah though it was an act of evil it didn't mean he no longer had faith in God.  I realize this could be seen as contradicting the selfish or sacrificial aspect of how the faith system works but as was mention in an above post I don't want to create robotic responses either.  Man does wrong every day we don't necessarily fall away from God for doing so.  Though with the disposition shift their faith would be affected if they fell to indifference or corruption.

Adam

[Eric Borzello]

I like the tapping faith to get bonuses to various rolls mechanic you're proposing. However, having to tap faith before rolling seems strange thematically since it's basically saying that God can't help you out of unexpected difficulties, but sinning can. I don't really have a fix, it just seemed funny to me that faith worked that way.

Also, I think that being able to help other characters' rolls with faith could be pretty awesome. It makes some common real life Christian prayer activities (praying for the healing of others, praying for the wisdom of our political leaders, etc) have an actual mechanical effect in this game (pluses to healing or leadership rolls). Helping others with faith like this could get out of hand if you have a LOT of people praying for a roll, but then again if you tap a couple million points of faith for one roll you probably deserve to succeed.

A related slight modification is allowing faith to be used to penalize any roll you are aware of, not just one in sight. The case this change is designed to address is something like character A is going to a duel with some evil guy, character B knows about the duel and wants A to succeed, but is unable to go for some reason (bed ridden, wrongfully imprisoned, whatever). With the way faith works now B couldn't do anything with his faith to directly help A. Similarly, pretend A's friends C,D,E, and F are at the duel and want to help him with faith to beat up the evil guy by providing penalties to the evil guy's actions. Knowing he's doomed to failure if he has 4 people debuffing him, the evil guy drops a smoke bomb at the start of the duel to remove God's influence from his actions. Though the line of sight limitation can lead to interesting tactical situations, those limitations don't feel very "faithy" to me.

[Adam Cerling]

On the topic of differentiating "Good" from "Evil" --

I was recently impressed by the observation (I think it was author Phillip Yancey's) that virtue can't so much be measured by how well one conforms to the Law, but instead by how conscious we are of how we fall short.

So maybe a character only grows in Faith not by doing good acts, but by (his player) recognizing how he could do better, morally speaking. Then he tries to live up to his own new standard. Anytime he disregards these Good things he has realized? That's an Evil act.

In effect, the players are in control of how moral their characters become, and how that morality looks. One character might become very virtuous in mercy and compassion; another character might grow virtuous in self-discipline and holiness. A bit of GM or group-consensus oversight can make sure that no player constructs a totally off-kilter morality.

Adam C.
(who totally needs to use this idea himself someday even if you don't...!)

[Seth M. Drebitko]

Hmm, I do have a suggestion possibly though again if it does not fit your concept thats all good.
I would say that if a player hits negative faith he could gain a vice based on the type of action he takes using that last bit of faith. This vice then could even when the player hits positive faith be tapped into by the gm to make the player fall into temptation and have to tap faith sinfully. In this way the more a character falls from grace the more he is dragged down by his own personal demons.
This can put more of a fear into the player that the more he pushes those boundaries stopping himself at say one negative away from losing his character because the gm always has the option of being able to push him over that edge.
regards, Seth